Russian military jets 'disrupted UK aviation'

expectationlost

Sean Kenny TD @SeanKennyTD
At #Dail Oir Transport Cttee discussing recent Russian military incursion into Irish airspace request to invite Russian ambassador to cttee

Private meeting of the committee this morning.
http://www.oireachtas.ie/eventsCalendar/t4.do?lang=en&pid=p1&dt=d.en.26578&f=month&d=11/02/2015&sd=Wednesday,11February2015&ac=*


what military incursion into Irish airspace ?

Negative_G

expectationlost wrote: »

what military incursion into Irish airspace ?

I think you've made your point now.

The Russian aircraft entered Irish controlled airspace as opposed to sovereign Irish airspace. I'm sure you are aware of the difference.

Never the less there is an onus of responsibility on the authority controlling the airspace.

Regardless of whether you think its scaremongering it does need to be discussed and taken seriously. Where is the line drawn if there was no intercept? Is it open season then to enter sovereign airspace next unopposed? Just because there was no serious incident on this occassion doesn't mean that they may be like this in future if it were to happen again.

Whether the discussion will be taken seriously or not is an entirely different thing.

expectationlost

Ireland’s location means that we have some of busiest airspace in Europe with almost all transatlantic flights passing through our skies. The Russian and British unauthorised entry into our airspace posed a threat, not only to Irish air passengers but to thousands of people flying from Europe to the US.

A request has been put forward by Dooley for the British and Russian ambassadors to appear before the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Transport and Communications to explain the incident.

http://www.thejournal.ie/russian-airplanes-fly-ireland-coast-west-1912354-Jan2015/

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/ff-spokesperson-condemns-russian-war-games-off-irish-coast-660286.html

He has also called for clarity on reports that the British military did not inform Irish civil aviation authorities that they were sending the Typhoon fighter jets in response.

the Fianna Fail the Republican party for you.

expectationlost

Negative_G wrote: »

I think you've made your point now.

The Russian aircraft entered Irish controlled airspace as opposed to sovereign Irish airspace. I'm sure you are aware of the difference.

Never the less there is an onus of responsibility on the authority controlling the airspace.

Regardless of whether you think its scaremongering it does need to be discussed in my opinion.

Whether the discussion will be taken seriously or not is an entirely different thing.

I thought the point had been made last week clearly not from some of our TDs

I think its serious too, but if its that serious people should not be so loose with their language, then we can discuss what actually happened, how often it happens that nations fly their military planes through the airspace controlled by another nation.

Negative_G

expectationlost wrote: »

I thought the point had been made last week clearly not.

I think its serious too, but if its that serious people should not be so loose with their language, then we can discuss what actually happened, how often it happens that nations fly their military planes through the airspace controlled by another nation.

It was discussed in depth with the correct facts unlike some of the comedic media reports that have published on it.

You've asked twice in a short space of time, 'what incursion?', so I answered your question. Your repeated question gave me the impression that you didn't seem to think any incursion took place.

I have no issue with any military aircraft transitting another countries airspace once the rules of the air are followed and the correct diplomatic requirements have been met.

What I do have issue with is any countries military or civilian aircraft entering controlled airspace, not following protocol and creating a situation where safety may be compromised.

The cherry on top is that we seem completely unable to handle such a situation ourselves. I appreciate there are political legacy issues surrounding Defence policies and perhaps it might never happen again but it does warrant some 'what ifs' by those in power.

expectationlost

Negative_G wrote: »

It was discussed in depth with the correct facts unlike some of the comedic media reports that have published on it.

You've asked twice in a short space of time, 'what incursion?', so I answered your question. Your repeated question gave me the impression that you didn't seem to think any incursion took place.

incurison: an invasion or attack, especially a sudden or brief one.

it suggests that there was they incursion into sovereign space, afaik that didn't happen

I have no issue with any military aircraft transitting another countries airspace once the rules of the air are followed and the correct diplomatic requirements have been met.

well thats a different situation to this one, as they didn't enter our airspace afaik.

What I do have issue with is any countries military or civilian aircraft entering controlled airspace, not following protocol and creating a situation where safety may be compromised.

how often does that happen?

I appreciate there are political legacy issues surrounding Defence policies and perhaps it might never happen again but it does warrant some 'what ifs' by those in power.

it happened in October afaik, it probably happens all the time, the only difference this time is the UK said there air traffic was disrupted and so some Irish people tried to glomb onto that happening here too until the IAA said it didn't happen.

expectationlost

this is the joint statement by the DFA and dept of Defence released at the time

The Russian aircraft did not enter Irish sovereign airspace at any time but were in an area for which the Irish Aviation Authority has air traffic control responsibility. The IAA coordinated closely with their UK counterparts at all stages during the incident so as to avoid a risk to any civil aircraft during the incident. Although there was no such risk on this occasion, such non-notified and non-controlled flight activity is not acceptable. The Irish authorities will discuss with their UK counterparts how best to seek to resolve this through the International Civil Aviation Organisation.

A report is being compiled by the Department of Foreign Affairs regarding the incident.

Negative_G

So its the terminology used that you have an issue with? The definition of an incursion may well imply some sort of hostile act, but its not always the case.

In an aircraft on the ground enters a runway without clearance it is known as a 'runway incursion'. Its a common enough phrase.

Ive no idea if this is a regular occurrence. The fact is and has been reportedly by reputable outlets that this is a fairly non standard 'probe' by the Russians. They've been doing it for years but they have been branching further in recent times perhaps to demonstrate they still have a long range capability should any interested nation be wondering.

expectationlost

Negative_G wrote: »

So its the terminology used that you have an issue with? The definition of an incursion may well imply some sort of hostile act, but its not always the case.

In an aircraft on the ground enters a runway without clearance it is known as a 'runway incursion'. Its a common enough phrase.

Ive no idea if this is a regular occurrence. The fact is and has been reportedly by reputable outlets that this is a fairly non standard 'probe' by the Russians. They've been doing it for years but they have been branching further in recent times perhaps to demonstrate they still have a long range capability should any interested nation be wondering.

I think saying there was 'incursion into Irish airspace by the Russian military' which many media outlets have been doing suggests something that didn't happen afaik.

Stovepipe

they could have been 500 miles away and still been in Irish-controlled airspace. they did not threaten this island's sovereignty. If I was British and seeing how close they came to the English Channel, I'd be more worried.....personally, I think a few seconds of the sound of a locked-on fire control radar from a Typhoon might soften the Bear pilot's cough

Stovepipe

Ireland's inability to do anything was highlighted years ago when an unmanned Harrier flew clear across the country and eventually crashed in the Atlantic......our ground to air defences were upgraded to a certain extent by the purchase of the short range RBS 70 and modern L70 Bofors but in effect, anything more than a few kms away and faster than a PC-9 can pretty much do what it likes over Ireland........It would take major political balls on the part of any Irish pol to actually request the RAF to do anything for us, except for SAR.

KingBrian2

Stovepipe wrote: »

Ireland's inability to do anything was highlighted years ago when an unmanned Harrier flew clear across the country and eventually crashed in the Atlantic......our ground to air defences were upgraded to a certain extent by the purchase of the short range RBS 70 and modern L70 Bofors but in effect, anything more than a few kms away and faster than a PC-9 can pretty much do what it likes over Ireland........It would take major political balls on the part of any Irish pol to actually request the RAF to do anything for us, except for SAR.

We could always ask the Russians to lend us a couple of Jets and we would pay in barrels of Guinness.

Negative_G

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/russian-bomber-in-irish-air-space-had-nuclear-weapon-312161.html

An interesting development. Again, could very well be scare tactics or maybe there was a nuclear warhead on board, who knows for certain.

Hypothetically speaking, if one of these bears development a serious emergency which required it to land as soon as possible while west of Ireland, Shannon is going to be the most obvious place for a diversion. I wonder what would be the aftermath of such an incident.

EchoIndia

Negative_G wrote: »

Hypothetically speaking, if one of these bears development a serious emergency which required it to land as soon as possible while west of Ireland, Shannon is going to be the most obvious place for a diversion. I wonder what would be the aftermath of such an incident.

Shannon has seen a sprinkling of military diversions by combat types over the years, including a USAF B-47 in 1960, as described in this article.

http://b-47.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/A-B-47-Down1.pdf

If an aircraft is in difficulty and needs to land immediately, that's what it is going to have to do. Twenty-four-hour media and tabloid journalism would mean a big fuss being made and the event being politicised in a way that I assume didn't happen 55 years ago.

Negative_G

EchoIndia wrote: »

Shannon has seen a sprinkling of military diversions by combat types over the years, including a USAF B-47 in 1960, as described in this article.

http://b-47.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/A-B-47-Down1.pdf

If an aircraft is in difficulty and needs to land immediately, that's what it is going to have to do. Twenty-four-hour media and tabloid journalism would mean a big fuss being made and the event being politicised in a way that I assume didn't happen 55 years ago.

Im quite aware that if an aircraft is in difficulty that it will land at the nearest suitable airfield.

I doubt there has been too many diversions where the aircraft has been carrying a nuclear payload. Your articles states they were carrying a spare engine/engine parts in the bomb bay. Quite a bit different than the hypothetical example that I am using.

Cookiemunster

Negative_G wrote: »

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/russian-bomber-in-irish-air-space-had-nuclear-weapon-312161.html

An interesting development. Again, could very well be scare tactics or maybe there was a nuclear warhead on board, who knows for certain.

Hypothetically speaking, if one of these bears development a serious emergency which required it to land as soon as possible while west of Ireland, Shannon is going to be the most obvious place for a diversion. I wonder what would be the aftermath of such an incident.

"If there was a psychotic episode onboard and the weapon was detonated" Seriously? What a ridiculous article.

And there would be no aftermath. The Russians would send crew to repair the aircraft and it would depart. Nobody would (officially) know if there were nuclear armaments on board and the Russians would never confirm it.

expectationlost

Ministers to be quizzed on UK ‘airspace deal’ http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/ministers-to-be-quizzed-on-uk-airspace-deal-312378.html

The Irish Examiner asked Department of Defence if the British jets had entered Irish-controlled airspace at any time during their “shadowing” operation and if there was a deal to allow British military aircraft fly into our airspace whenever they liked.

Fianna Fáil spokesman on defence, Sean O’Fearghail, said he was concerned that Irish neutrality was being compromised and he has prepared a number of questions for the Government which are to be aired in the Dáil early next week.

what confused nonsense from Sean O’Fearghail.

In a statement, the IAA said foreign military aircraft do not require advance permission to fly in Irish-controlled airspace, which is outside of Irish sovereign airspace, and which extends more than 250 miles off the Irish coast.

then what was the point of this whole article then Sean O’Riordan ?

expectationlost

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2015-02-12a.450&s=russian+military+aircraft#g491
In the context of the Irish Aviation Authority (amendment) Bill, the Tánaiste would accept that there has been considerable public controversy recently over the fact that Russian military aircraft entered very heavily trafficked Irish airspace. They did so without any notification and were pursued out of Irish airspace, I understand, by the British air corps. When will the Bill be forthcoming? Will it address the issues that have arisen in this context? I refer to the resourcing of our own air corps, the adequacy of our radar systems and, ultimately public safety.

they didn't enter Irish airspace. neither did afaik

Bill Carson

Seems to me we should either have an airforce capable of defending our airspace or not bother with one.

Since the former is very unlikely why not disband the Aer Corps and re-allocate the funds?

expectationlost

EchoIndia wrote: »

Shannon has seen a sprinkling of military diversions by combat types over the years, including a USAF B-47 in 1960, as described in this article.

http://b-47.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/A-B-47-Down1.pdf

If an aircraft is in difficulty and needs to land immediately, that's what it is going to have to do. Twenty-four-hour media and tabloid journalism would mean a big fuss being made and the event being politicised in a way that I assume didn't happen 55 years ago.

unless in case of Thule its a diversion thats not a diversion http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1968_Thule_Air_Base_B-52_crash#.22Thulegate.22_political_scandal

EchoIndia

Bill Carson wrote: »

Seems to me we should either have an airforce capable of defending our airspace or not bother with one.

Since the former is very unlikely why not disband the Aer Corps and re-allocate the funds?

Some of the tasks carried out by the Air Corps (note correct title), e.g. maritime/fisheries patrol and some air ambulance work, would have to be undertaken anyway. Up to now, Government air transport has been a role but this appears to be on the wane with the disposal of the G-IV. In any case the Air Corps has never purported to be an air defence organisation.

If people seriously advocate an air defence capability, be prepared to fund this through your taxes and accept that purchase of the aircraft is only part of what would be required. Air defence radar manned H24, air combat training, spares support plus airfield equipment and manning levels that would support quick reaction alert are only some of the requirements.

KingBrian2

EchoIndia wrote: »

Some of the tasks carried out by the Air Corps (note correct title), e.g. maritime/fisheries patrol and some air ambulance work, would have to be undertaken anyway. Up to now, Government air transport has been a role but this appears to be on the wane with the disposal of the G-IV. In any case the Air Corps has never purported to be an air defence organisation.

If people seriously advocate an air defence capability, be prepared to fund this through your taxes and accept that purchase of the aircraft is only part of what would be required. Air defence radar manned H24, air combat training, spares support plus airfield equipment and manning levels that would support quick reaction alert are only some of the requirements.

If the war mongers are up for conflict in Ukraine it is surely sensible to think of defence capabilities and being able to deter enemy aircraft.

expectationlost

EchoIndia wrote: »

Some of the tasks carried out by the Air Corps (note correct title), e.g. maritime/fisheries patrol and some air ambulance work, would have to be undertaken anyway. Up to now, Government air transport has been a role but this appears to be on the wane with the disposal of the G-IV. In any case the Air Corps has never purported to be an air defence organisation.

If people seriously advocate an air defence capability, be prepared to fund this through your taxes and accept that purchase of the aircraft is only part of what would be required. Air defence radar manned H24, air combat training, spares support plus airfield equipment and manning levels that would support quick reaction alert are only some of the requirements.

and if we did buy all that stuff (while remaining neutral (militarily unaligned)) what would have changed in this situation?, the planes would have gone up followed these aircraft and... thats it.

Peregrine

expectationlost wrote: »

and if we did buy all that stuff (while remaining neutral (militarily unaligned)) what would have changed in this situation?, the planes would have gone up followed these aircraft and... thats it.

At least we'd know about it.

al22

Do anybody expect that military aircraft should be visible well in advance, if in the war? Or any othe time?
Why there is a stealth technology exist to do military aircraft invisible?
I think nobody broke a law and it is up to each country to be equped with the appropriate technology to protect itself.

There are many reports thatUFO (aliens) are flying everywhere, do we see these UFO often?

newcavanman

KingBrian2 wrote: »

If the war mongers are up for conflict in Ukraine it is surely sensible to think of defence capabilities and being able to deter enemy aircraft.

As a supposed Neutral island country we should either have an air defense system, or we should come to an arrangement, like the baltic states to allow others to provide such a defense
Our so called neutrality is a joke . If we were in central europe, how would we have protected ourselves ? we have existed because Nato and the brits are between us and any likely threat

KingBrian2

newcavanman wrote: »

As a supposed Neutral island country we should either have an air defense system, or we should come to an arrangement, like the baltic states to allow others to provide such a defense
Our so called neutrality is a joke . If we were in central europe, how would we have protected ourselves ? we have existed because Nato and the brits are between us and any likely threat

We apparently do have some sort of arrangement, it is not good enough. Lets be honest were not really allies of NATO. We might be friends with both Britain and the US that does not extend to supporting their military endeavours so why not have proper air defences should we be attacked by enemy forces.

al22

They did not fly in the Irish airspace and not over the Irish territory
They fly in the Irish CONTROLLED airspace, which is huge from Paris, Bruxelles and London and to the nearly middle of Atlantic or so, I think

So military aircraft from the UK, France, Belgium ets are flying in the Irish CONTROLLED airspace too....

al22

To be attacked - need a reason. Who need the Irish territory and why?

expectationlost

al22 wrote: »

They did not fly in the Irish airspace and not over the Irish territory
They fly in the Irish CONTROLLED airspace, which is huge from Paris, Bruxelles and London and to the nearly middle of Atlantic or so, I think

So military aircraft from the UK, France, Belgium ets are flying in the Irish CONTROLLED airspace too....

like to find a better map of british controlled airspace