anti Islam rally

Snake Plisken

ireland.man wrote: »

You can express any view but no-one will take you seriously, even those on your own side, if you utter blatant falsehoods and misdirection. You need to be more subtle! Move the goalposts slightly, when people aren't looking.

For example, you say 'Hamas supporters', I'm betting there's not a single post you can link to showing anyone on this thread unequivocally stated support for Hamas, right?

Just doing what you and your crew are doing, by trying to link us non-believers with the likes of the EDL etc! If you can come up with one post where I said I support the EDL, Loyalist etc please feel free to post! I doubt anyone really takes you to seriously either!;)

Nodin

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Just doing what you and your crew are doing, by trying to link us non-believers with the likes of the EDL etc! If you can come up with one post where I said I support the EDL, Loyalist etc please feel free to post! I doubt anyone really takes you to seriously either!;)

Could you get back to me as regards this? Thanks.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93659604&postcount=840

ireland.man

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Just doing what you and your crew are doing, by trying to link us non-believers with the likes of the EDL etc! If you can come up with one post where I said I support the EDL, Loyalist etc please feel free to post! I doubt anyone really takes you to seriously either!;)

Not to overshadow this:

Could you get back to me as regards this? Thanks.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...&postcount=840

EDL videos and extreme right websites have been posted in this thread in support of what seems to be a common argument.

Now imagine someone posted a video by Hamas here and told you to watch it, it has soem good ideas...

shruikan2553

Snake Plisken wrote: »

I have no interest in the EDL or even UKIP who now even want to keep Italians and Spanish out of the UK. So don't bother repeating those organizations when responding to posts.
Also I have no time for HAMAS, which a lot of the SF supporters on here seem to have.
I really just can't understand the rational behind a 21st century society bowing to a religion that is like something from medieval times with respect to women's rights, implementing Sharia law etc.
Anyway that's my point of view which I'm allowed to express freely as should the German population and if 1 in 8 have similar feelings it doesn't mean they are racist Nazis.

And yet when people give out about it they are militant atheists who should leave people alone. I do agree that the sooner this country makes laws without the need of bowing to such a group the better.

alwald

Snake Plisken wrote: »

Just doing what you and your crew are doing, by trying to link us non-believers with the likes of the EDL etc! If you can come up with one post where I said I support the EDL, Loyalist etc please feel free to post! I doubt anyone really takes you to seriously either!;)

Please don't put all the non-believers in the same basket as you.

RobYourBuilder

ireland.man wrote: »

For example, you say 'Hamas supporters', I'm betting there's not a single post you can link to showing anyone on this thread unequivocally stated support for Hamas, right?

You had no problem claiming that I was an EDL supporter. An organisation that I've never mentioned. Yet you are irked when you, someone who proclaims to be pro Palestine and anti western, gets called a Hamas supporter.

Funny sh*t.

ireland.man

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

You had no problem claiming that I was an EDL supporter. An organisation that I've never mentioned. Yet you are irked when you, someone who proclaims to be pro Palestine and anti western, gets called a Hamas supporter.

Funny sh*t.

Funny, go back over this thread and you'll see unsubstantiated claims about lefties being 'braindwashed', 'cultural marxists', "Social justice warriors", political correct fools, actual Muslims, Islamist apologists, Hamas supporters, Sinn Fein-types, naive, traitors to Europe, etc, etc. I'd say 80% of the claims about the character or the politics of posters here have been insults thrown by rightwingers towards those who oppose that anti-Islam march.

And you take offense at someone suggesting (but admitting they could be wrong) that you might support a group that holds ideals and political opinions very close to the ones you're pushing in this thread?

I've condemned Hamas here, denied I support Sinn Fein, said I'm not Muslim but Catholic, answered that I am in fact Irish, condemned Islamism. But rightwingers seem shocked when, in return, they're asked to condemn the EDL (resulting in crickets chirping throughout the thread) or if someone uses their same immature tactics in reply to them.

RobYourBuilder

You're boring the sh*t out of me with this. So much so, I'm growing a beard here. I dont care if you support Sinn Fein, Israel, Hamas, Meath, Liverpool, Shamrock Rovers or a seven foot wall.

Anyway. You were at me for a good hour to answer your irrelevant questions and I eventually did so. I posed a few relevant questions in response. Care to have a stab at them?

ireland.man

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

You're boring the sh*t out of me with this. So much so, I'm growing a beard here. I dont care if you support Sinn Fein, Israel, Hamas, Meath, Liverpool, Shamrock Rovers or a seven foot wall.

Anyway. You were at me for a good hour to answer your irrelevant questions and I eventually did so. I posed a few relevant questions in response. Care to have a stab at them?

As soon as you condemn the EDL I'll get to answering absolutely any question you have.

RobYourBuilder

"Condemn the EDL". Get a grip. First you were harraunging me to answer your questions and to put some to you. I do that, then you bring the EDL into this discussion for reasons I cant fathom. Now you are demanding that I "condemn" them before you answer any questions you asked me to ask you!

Anyway, there's another protest planned for Monday in Cologne. Be interesting to see the numbers in attendance.

ireland.man

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

"Condemn the EDL". Get a grip. First you were harraunging me to answer your questions and to put some to you. I do that, then you bring the EDL into this discussion for reasons I cant fathom. Now you are demanding that I "condemn" them before you answer any questions you asked me to ask you!

Anyway, there's another protest planned for Monday in Cologne. Be interesting to see the numbers in attendance.

Simple request to condemn a racist, homophobic, anti-Irish group that's been linked to in this thread by people who are arguing alongside you. It's not a personal thing, I'd ask anyone preaching support for the anti-Islam march in Germany to do the same. I'll ask the same of anyone else who supports this anti-Islam protest.

ireland.man

In Germany a centre for asylum seekers has been burnt out, racist graffiti daubed over centres for immigrants, Jewish people have been attacked and threats of worse to come from right-wing extremists. The more this group protests and chants “Wir sind das Volk” and "Zero tolerance towards criminal asylum seekers", the more lone wolves and small cells of right-wing terrorists will be emboldened. Remember the three right-wing serial killers roaming Germany killing Turkish and Muslim men and women only three or four years ago. It's highly dangerous- I'll be surprised if this doesn't end in deaths too.

The problem is that the right-wing are correct, the majority of the protesters are not extremists but simply ordinary working people being abused by their govt for years. But what began as legitimate anger at the government now has been warped by sinister elements, the infiltration of the group by Neo-Nazi elements. The problem is that pivotal role now being played by neo-nazi groups and hooligan gangs who've led street fights with asylum seekers/ immigrants/ Muslims in the last few years.

http://www.dw.de/image/0,,18066850_303,00.jpg

http://www.ksta.de/image/view/29186378,30504483,dmFlashTeaserRes,71-77334267%253A+Ausschreitunge+%252828.11.2014_18%253A13%253A01%253A781%2529.jpg

It's strange to see Irish people support groups like this when we've been targeted by similar xenophobia for over a century. Even now British far-right, neo-nazi groups are organising against Irish communities in Britain, and were until recently supporting the worst elements of loyalism here. Criticising Islam is one thing and is a legitimate debate to have but irish people supporting far-right extremists boggles my mind. If we want to use emotive and extreme language and talk about 'traitors' in this thread like some have to attack left wingers, then let's talk about those supporting anti-Muslim groups and allying themselves with the friends of loyalist paramilitaries.

RobYourBuilder

In Germany a centre for asylum seekers has been burnt out, racist graffiti daubed over centres for immigrants,

Members of Pegida did this did they? Do you have evidence? If so, produce it. If not, stop smearing.

Jewish people have been attacked 

By who? Members of Pegida? Don't think so.

Dr. Elvira Grözinger, from the German branch of Scholars for Peace in the Middle East, told The Jerusalem Post on Sunday, “the anti-Semitism, especially by Muslim students at German schools, is becoming a very serious problem also for the teachers and school directors who have to deal with it daily.”

She added,” It is absolutely necessary to counteract religious and political indoctrination among Muslim youth which is a threat to the German civil society as a whole not just to Jews, but… to inform students and teaching staff about anti-Semitism, Judaism, Jewish history, Israel and the history of the Middle East conflict. At present, many school books include biased information about these topics. The German Chancellor demanded this in public, and now concrete steps must follow. “ 

http://www.jpost.com/International/After-Gaza-war-Muslim-German-students-threaten-to-kill-Jewish-spokesman-380577

As for the rest, no interest in your nordie mopery.

RobYourBuilder

ireland.man wrote: »

Simple request to condemn a racist, homophobic, anti-Irish group that's been linked to in this thread by people who are arguing alongside you. It's not a personal thing, I'd ask anyone preaching support for the anti-Islam march in Germany to do the same. I'll ask the same of anyone else who supports this anti-Islam protest.

You're just making it up as you go along.

Six hours previous you posted;

Ask any questions you want of me. Try to understand my politics and why we disagree. It's not because I'm 'pc' or brainwashed by cultural marxists, etc! I'm just surprised you're so reticent about your own value system.

Now you're asking me to condemn groups I never mentioned. Make up your mind.

Grayson

Snake Plisken wrote: »

I have no interest in the EDL or even UKIP who now even want to keep Italians and Spanish out of the UK. So don't bother repeating those organizations when responding to posts.
Also I have no time for HAMAS, which a lot of the SF supporters on here seem to have.
I really just can't understand the rational behind a 21st century society bowing to a religion that is like something from medieval times with respect to women's rights, implementing Sharia law etc.
Anyway that's my point of view which I'm allowed to express freely as should the German population and if 1 in 8 have similar feelings it doesn't mean they are racist Nazis.

To be fair Christians have just as much sh1t in their book. I mentioned earlier in the thread that Christians protesting in France stopped gay marriage from coming into law. 58% of France is catholic. there's other denominations too. (Someone replied and noted that something like over 30% of Catholics in France are non practising. I wanted to reply to it but forgot to. that 58% are the practising Catholics)

I'm pretty liberal but I won't defend the worst parts of Islam and sharia. Sharia as practised in Saudi or as practised by the Taliban is horrific and has no place in a modern society.
However most Muslims in modern societies agree. Most Muslims in the UK for example are second generation. They like the freedoms of their countries. Some of the women may wear a hijab but that's no worse than a sikh who wears a turban. If it's their choice to wear it, that's all that matters.

there are a vocal minority who disagree. They want Sharia ala Saudi to be implemented. To be fair, they are a minority and every religion has them. Only a few years ago we had a groups of auld biddies camp outside a Stringfellows strip club in Dublin. We have prolifers harassing people outside Marie Stopes in Belfast. When the first Ann Summers opened in Dublin it wasn't allowed display it's name on the outside because it was a sex shop (Religious groups objected and pressured the council. The council decided that an Ann Summers shop would lower the tone of O'Connell st )
Last year when I was in the college library someone dropped these onto my desk when I was grabbing a smoke.
http://imgur.com/KLebcp5 .

There are more than enough Christians trying to force their way of life on us. Hell, in Ireland it's nearly impossible to get a secular education because the church refuses to hand over schools.

Here's the thing I don't think that all Christians are the problem. Anymore than I think all Muslims are the problem.
If however I decided to tarnish the whole of Christianity because of the actions of a few, that would be discriminatory. If I decided that all Christians are bad because the KKK is a Christian organisation, that would be bad. Likewise I don't think it's right to tar Islam simply because some of it's adherents are bad.

Grayson

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Members of Pegida did this did they? Do you have evidence? If so, produce it. If not, stop smearing.

If you "Muslims out" and "We hate Muslims" you shouldn't be surprised when people start burning down Muslim buildings.

RobYourBuilder

Grayson wrote: »

If you "Muslims out" and "We hate Muslims" you shouldn't be surprised when people start burning down Muslim buildings.

Using that logic, I can blame those who call for relaxed immigration policies and open borders when an immigrant does something illegal or commits a serious crime. Plus, purely based on muslim unemployment and crime rates in Western Europe, calling for tighter restrictions on immigration from Islamic countries is perfectly rational and sane.

ireland.man

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

You're just making it up as you go along.

Six hours previous you posted;



Now you're asking me to condemn groups I never mentioned. Make up your mind.

And I, and others here have been asked to condemn terrorist groups, have been called traitors to Europe, cultural marxists, Islamist apologists, etc, etc. I've distanced myself from Sinn Fein, and reminded people I'm not a Muslim even though I never mentioned them.

Funnily enough, people in this thread condemn ISIS and other fanatical groups quickly but when it comes to right-wing extremists, the EDL, there's not a word said against them.

The neo-Nazi hooligans at the core of that movement against Muslims and asylum seekers are the same old scum seen with lager in hand shouting homophobic and racist sh*te at any old EDL or BNP protest. There's plenty to criticise in Islam, and I'd join in too, if only some of its critics would be a bit reasonable and condemn the Neo-Nazi groups in the protests, condemn the attacks on asylum seekers and condemn the EDL.

Grayson

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Using that logic, I can blame those who call for relaxed immigration policies and open borders when an immigrant does something illegal or commits a serious crime. Plus, purely based on muslim unemployment and crime rates in Western Europe, calling for tighter restrictions on immigration from Islamic countries is perfectly rational and sane.

That's not actually logical. You do realise that don't you?.

Letree

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

Before we even touch on their beliefs, let's just look at their crazy unemployment rates across western and northern Europe. That's reason enough to "fear" muslim immigration. Then their crime rate and prison commitals. Again, levels well above the natives. That's before we touch on terrorism, anti western, women and homosexual attitudes and what not.

Why would anyone support continued immigration from the Islamic world? Their numbers are only shooting up. Do you expect things to drastically improve or something?

Its a mystery to me. And how is Europe going to gain from it anyway.

I'm glad pegida has formed in Germany. They will demonstrate to the government of the most influential country in Europe that people aren't happy. People who are concerned about Muslim immigration have no voice. The media have abandoned them and people in positions of power are terrified to raise the subject. I believe there is to be a similar march in Paris on the 18th of January. I hope this movement grows and grows and the governments take heed.

ireland.man

Letree wrote: »

Its a mystery to me. And how is Europe going to gain from it anyway.

I'm glad pegida has formed in Germany. They will demonstrate to the government of the most influential country in Europe that people aren't happy. People who are concerned about Muslim immigration have no voice. The media have abandoned them and people in positions of power are terrified to raise the subject. I believe there is to be a similar march in Paris on the 18th of January. I hope this movement grows and grows and the governments take heed.

Didn't you post up links to the English Defence League?:

http://www.indymediascotland.org/sites/default/files/WDLnazi.jpg

http://static2.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/2200-7/photos/1374366545-english-defence-league-march-in-birmingham_2274157.jpg

http://static4.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1300-2/photos/1341073741-english-defence-league-edl-march-through-dewsbury_1306932.jpg

Do you support the English Defence League? Are you sure you want anti-Catholic, loyalist affiliated thugs hold cans of bavaria and screaming about 'Mooslums' marching through Dublin or Cork or Belfast?

RobYourBuilder

You're obsessed with the EDL.

Are you sure you want anti-Catholic, loyalist affiliated thugs hold cans of bavaria and screaming about 'Mooslums' marching through Dublin or Cork or Belfast?

Where did he say that? This thread is about Pediga. They don't allow any chanting or drinking on their excursions through the towns.

ireland.man

RobYourBuilder wrote: »

You're obsessed with the EDL.



Where did he say that? This thread is about Pediga. They don't allow any chanting or drinking on their excursions throw the towns.

They don't? Really? No chanting "we are the people" along their routes?

And why would I be concerned with the EDL? Because that last poster used EDL material in his previous posts.

The fact is, those protests in Germany have hooligan, far-right extremists at their core. Just scratch the surface and you'll find beer swilling louts itching to take on aylum seekers and foreigners. Sure Bachmann, one of the heads of the movement, has 16 convictions for burglaries! That's the sort of lads we're talking about, not reasoned individuals here.

nokia69

ireland.man wrote: »

They don't? Really? No chanting "we are the people" along their routes?

And why would I be concerned with the EDL? Because that last poster used EDL material in his previous posts.

The fact is, those protests in Germany have hooligan, far-right extremists at their core. Just scratch the surface and you'll find beer swilling louts itching to take on aylum seekers and foreigners. Sure Bachmann, one of the heads of the movement, has 16 convictions for burglaries! That's the sort of lads we're talking about, not reasoned individuals here.

if you dismiss the EDL and Pegida as just the far right then you don't really understand whats going on

look at the pictures of the marches in Germany, the vast majority people marching don't look like hooligans on the piss looking for a fight

RobYourBuilder

It's easy to dismiss us with right wing beliefs as numbskulls. Let them. When I go to work, I ensure that I'm in a nice suit. I've a few that cost 600-upwards. When I'm relaxing, I still dress in nice jeans, shoes/runners and a shirt or polo. I get my hair cut in an expensive hairdressers.

Let them think that we are all EDL knuckledraggers. Fine by me. I've no real hatred for those that breach the gates. I despise those that hold the gates open.

BuilderPlumber

ireland.man wrote: »

And I, and others here have been asked to condemn terrorist groups, have been called traitors to Europe, cultural marxists, Islamist apologists, etc, etc. I've distanced myself from Sinn Fein, and reminded people I'm not a Muslim even though I never mentioned them.

Funnily enough, people in this thread condemn ISIS and other fanatical groups quickly but when it comes to right-wing extremists, the EDL, there's not a word said against them.

The neo-Nazi hooligans at the core of that movement against Muslims and asylum seekers are the same old scum seen with lager in hand shouting homophobic and racist sh*te at any old EDL or BNP protest. There's plenty to criticise in Islam, and I'd join in too, if only some of its critics would be a bit reasonable and condemn the Neo-Nazi groups in the protests, condemn the attacks on asylum seekers and condemn the EDL.

Neo-Nazis are the worst hypocrites of all time. The BNP is exactly an example. A racist, rightwing party lead by a man of Irish extraction with a colourful past relationship and funding from Islamic extremists.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/programmes/2001/bnp_special/the_leader/biography.stm

I guess aligning himself with dictators who used Islam as their theme was ok for the BNP in the 1980s and as long as it stayed in Africa or the Middle East. The BNP's current hate campaign against Islam falls flat when they supported Islamic fascism when it suited them. But all fascists love each other.

RobYourBuilder

ireland.man wrote: »

They don't? Really? No chanting "we are the people" along their routes?

And why would I be concerned with the EDL? Because that last poster used EDL material in his previous posts.

The fact is, those protests in Germany have hooligan, far-right extremists at their core. Just scratch the surface and you'll find beer swilling louts itching to take on aylum seekers and foreigners. Sure Bachmann, one of the heads of the movement, has 16 convictions for burglaries! That's the sort of lads we're talking about, not reasoned individuals here.

There's a flight to Cologne from Dublin at 17.50-20.45

I'll pay for the flights and we can watch what goes down ourselves. We will watch together and report back to the Irish people together. F*ck it, I'm dying for a decent kebab/steak/curry. I'm the exact opposite of what you consider a Neo Nazi. Fancy clothes, hair, etc.

Game? I'll even stand you a few drinks.

Wurzelbert

nokia69 wrote: »

[...]

look at the pictures of the marches in Germany, the vast majority people marching don't look like hooligans on the piss looking for a fight

that is also the impression i am under...the fact that there are some dodgy characters involved does not discredit pegida altogether...and there has been dodgy **** going on with the media coverage as well with at least one known case where a pegida “neo nazi” turned out to be a planted “undercover” journalist from rtl...all in all the handling of pegida by politics and the media appears to be fully in line with the new world order so far...

Beano

ireland.man wrote: »

... and you'll find beer swilling louts ...

whats wrong with swilling beer?

Grand Moff Tarkin

Nothing like the smell of lefty fear first thing in the morning.