Gardai proposals to ban firearms

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Was I unclear?

No one is disputing those are very valid points Sparks,and as I was reporting the meeting last night I thought someone else might have added onto this,but belive it or not,the organisers were literally saying the same thing!maybe I didnt make that clear enough ?

And do you know what it's so unlikely?
It's not because of the DoJ. The AGS can't block it. The other NGBs were perfectly happy to go back into it. Who blocked it?

Yes this is again past tense...Can it be set up this time next week?Will people attend?Will it have benefits?Thats what I and others would like to know.Not what happened yesterday.



I guess this august is technically the past.

To use your analogy, I'd rather not get in the lifeboat that has the bloody great big hole in the hull and I'd like to know the guy at the tiller knows what an iceberg looks like.
Call me picky if you want, but there's more than one lifeboat so don't tell me there's no choice here.

Point us to another one then please.:pac: But I've got a feeling we are post sunken ship and bashing each off with the oars,while some passengers are screaming "but we're first class." Others are sneaking life belts off the unconcious,and there are multiple skippers all of a sudden arguing about was the hole a big one that let in water or multiple small ones,and will it ruin the brass on our uniform epulettes??While the rest of us are frantically bailing water with anything to hand.

Also, Grizz, you know how you just went to court for your pistol licence recently?
You still have a pistol. After a sitting Minister said in the press on the front page that he was going to ban all handguns. That's not the AGS asking for the Minister to consider a legislative change after consultation and at arms length; that's the decision made and announced.

Yet somehow, you can still - even with difficulty - own a pistol

.

True,but for how long is the question,and before some Judas[es] start cutting deals to save "their sport"??I'm in no doubts that what I shoot if it comes to sht or bust are" expendable" for "the greater good.":mad:

Amongst other things, there are two things that implies:
1) We've been in worse places before;
2) In those worse places, something managed to take the announced decision of a sitting Minister and deflect it enough that something was saved instead of a complete ban coming in.

That thing wasn't a court case, it wasn't a petition and it wasn't grassroots support on that occasion as there wasn't time. It was that we were on the inside, not the outside.

Have you ever wonderd ,is this maybe why it was collapsed and that possibly the guilty parties in your perception isnt who you think it was? Just playing abit of Xfiles aboutery here.


You can dismiss it all you want - but we still have pistols.

Pro tip. Get the minutes before you say it's on paper. Then release it. Otherwise, it's he-said-she-said, literally, and we're nowhere.

Ok,Dr....The TG campainer did ask Des last night quite clearly at this meeting in front of 350 people "is this in the public domainand legally so?" Des answerd YES it is... So I'd say he ewouldnt be saying this if it wasnt so.

That's.
The.
Whole.
Point.

The idea is to fix the problem now, not lose. And what's been suggested just loses. If we'd never tried any of these ideas before, I'd say let's try them - but that's what I did say the first time I saw us try them and they failed, and they kept failing because the system is set up so they can be readily dismissed. Seriously, how many times do we have to lose the same way before we try something we've seen work before?

So whats wrong with using everything??Far as I can see there is alot of same differences in what all sides are saying??

They are saying "Go see your TDs and make noise on a personal level."
You are saying the same thing.

They are saying keep following it up.
You are saying the same.

And on more the less same points both are saying the same.

The difference is the FCP.You are pro, they against,maybe for good reason as many felt it was a DOJ info centre to use against us and was closed down when AGS/DOJ had enough info to turn it against us.[That's X files country and cant be proven or not conclusively either way].
It seems there is alot of commonality this time round,but personalities in the way again.

homerhop

In every walk of life we have to work with people we don't like, that's life get over it. We are facing one of the biggest threats to our sport in a very long time and to be honest, the way lads are bitching and moaning here I might as well just throw my gear into the van, drive into the station and hand it in.
Before Martin Hayden left the speakers they laid it in simple facts to him that we as shooters have complied with everything that they have asked of us,from gun safes to monitored alarm systems, but no matter what we do we are hit with dirty under handed tricks and deeds. All we want to be dealt with in a fair manner so we can get on with our sports no more no less.

The DOJ dont need to do anything just sit and watch us tear each other down. There are those in here with egos just as bad as those they look to knock and are too self absorbed in their own importance to see the god dam bigger picture.

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

So whats wrong with using everything??Far as I can see there is alot of same differences in what all sides are saying??

They are saying "Go see your TDs and make noise on a personal level."
You are saying the same thing.

They are saying keep following it up.
You are saying the same.

And on more the less same points both are saying the same.

The difference is the FCP.You are pro, they against,maybe for good reason as many felt it was a DOJ info centre to use against us and was closed down when AGS/DOJ had enough info to turn it against us.[That's X files country and cant be proven or not conclusively either way].
It seems there is alot of commonality this time round,but personalities in the way again.

It's too late for FCP.

AGS/DoJ don't care about our differences and our differences are not big enough to exploit.

The media and the public have exactly zero interest in this story (bad timing by AGS/DoJ) and that's our ace card.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

No one is disputing those are very valid points Sparks,and as I was reporting the meeting last night I thought someone else might have added onto this,but belive it or not,the organisers were literally saying the same thing!maybe I didnt make that clear enough ?

No, you were clear, which is why I said this:

Sparks wrote: »

Grizzly45 wrote:

Get off your Butts and get out letter writing,emailing,into your TDs clinics and FOLLOW it up.

Well, yeah. But I would say that, wouldn't I?

Yes this is again past tense...Can it be set up this time next week?

A week? With the civil service? Two weeks would be breakneck pace and realistically I'd give it longer, but even pessimistically we could have it running again before the consultation period the DoJ's published ran out. The problem is not time; it's that nobody would trust the NARGC not to storm out again and the NARGC spent months saying nasty things about the people involved.

Will people attend?

All the original attendees bar one would, last I talked to any of them about it.

Will it have benefits?

You still have pistols after a Minister declared on the front page of every national newspaper that he was going to ban them.

Seriously Grizz, what more do you want, a contract? Irish law doesn't allow us to dictate terms to a Minister, so we are never going to get a veto right. We will never get the perfect-for-us solution. And the courts will never overrule a sitting Minister on policy if it's not blatently illegal, there are literally hundreds of precedents where they've said so. Hell, they just said so three days ago in a case about Direct Provision and it's in the legal textbooks, it's that basic a point. And on the few occasions they've ruled against a Minister on a legal ground, the Minister rewrites the law to sidestep it. That's what happened to Dunne in the 2006 Act. That's what happened to the bin taxes court case win in the Local Government Act. It's been this way since at least the 70s.

We've had years of trying other options and they've never had more than short-term victories which were overturned with much less effort than winning them took; so why do we keep doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?

True,but for how long is the question,and before some Judas[es] start cutting deals to save "their sport"?

How short's your memory? Seriously, you want to start bringing up the past, you've got to start asking questions of everyone. And does it not even tickle your irony meter to say we all have to work together in one breath and in the next say that "certain people" will stab us all in the back to try to save themselves?

Have you ever wonderd ,is this maybe why it was collapsed

Not really, because the reason why it stopped (it was never officially disbanded) was public and obvious. You can't walk out of a meeting and start saying nasty things about the people in the meeting and the meeting itself in the media and expect the others in that meeting to agree to continue the process.

Ok,Dr....The TG campainer did ask Des last night quite clearly at this meeting in front of 350 people "is this in the public domainand legally so?" Des answerd YES it is... So I'd say he ewouldnt be saying this if it wasnt so.

Cool. Can we see a copy so, or did he just mean you could ask for them under FOI but it hadn't been done yet?

C'mon, I know this isn't Missouri, but how hard is it to release a document you have and that's in the public domain anyway? And if I can ask that, as a shooter who wants to see us win, what the hell will those who want to see us gone be asking?

So whats wrong with using everything??Far as I can see there is alot of same differences in what all sides are saying??

Okay, productive time, here's what we all agree on - honest, no bull****.

• Everyone needs to - individually, on their own, personally, not leaving it up to others - contact their local TDs. By email, by facebook, by twitter, by text, by phone, by handwritten letter, by face-to-face meetings in their clinic; and tell them that these bans are not on.

Pretty much everything else is up for debate, but that point's something everyone agrees on. Which, I gotta say, is nice. I mean if we agreed on nothing, that'd be pretty dark. At least this is something. And if you have something, you can work with it.

It's what you do after that that's causing the ructions.

The difference is the FCP.You are pro, they against,maybe for good reason as many felt it was a DOJ info centre to use against us and was closed down when AGS/DOJ had enough info to turn it against us.[That's X files country and cant be proven or not conclusively either way].

And the other viewpoint, of everyone else who was in there and stayed in there, was that flouncing out didn't do anything to help us, that it was the best in we ever had to the table, and that throwing it away was an incredible and arrogant waste of what had to have been more than a working lifetime of manhours, all of which were put in by unpaid volunteers.
And that turning around less than a year later and calling for a second FCP to be set up but with the NARGC in charge rather undermined the argument that you couldn't trust the FCP.

It seems there is alot of commonality this time round,but personalities in the way again.

Then maybe we should get in fresh blood. I did my time at the wheel and stepped away afterwards. Others did the same. Maybe that should be a more general principle.

SVI40

Got this this morning from Minister Reilly. Next stop, a visit to his clinic, with some friends.

Dear Mr SVI40,

Thank you for taking the time to contact me.

In September 2013 a Joint Working Group made up of representatives from the Department of Justice and Equality and An Garda Síochána was established to address concerns raised in relation to firearms licensing issues.

As part of the review, the Working Group was tasked with examining key legislative and administrative issues which impact on the implementation of firearms legislation and to recommend changes. In examining these issues, the Working Group was to have particular regard to public safety.

On the publication of this Report, my colleague Frances Fitzgerald TD, Minister for Justice and Equality, expressly acknowledged that the great majority of firearms do not give rise to concern, but stated that questions do arise in relation to the categories of firearms which should be licensed.

I have been advised by Minister Fitzgerald that no changes to firearms licensing will take place before consultation with interested parties, including groups representing gun users.

In this regard, the Department of Justice and Equality has set up a dedicated email address firearms_inbox@justice.ie to submit views on the Report of the Working Group. The closing date for submissions is 15th December 2014 and further details are available on the Department of Justice website at http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB14000319.

The establishment of this consultation process follows on from commitments made by the Minister for Justice and Equality, to give individuals and representative groups an opportunity to contribute to the future direction of legislation in this area.

I want to thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

I hope this information is of use to you.

Yours sincerely,

Dr James Reilly TD, Minister for Children & Youth Affairs

Tea drinker

@SVI40 positive news, but still no change to plans to motivate and meet as many people as possible.
The people who want our sport banned haven't gone away or had their views changed. We have to get to the core of this issue or we are finished.

Sparks wrote: »

Well, yeah, but we don't have to lead off that way. How many World Championships and World Cups have we won? How many times have we represented our country in the Olympics and in other international events and how many medals have we brought home from all over the world? How much money do we add to the economy every year? How much work do the hunters do to restock species, husband deer herds, reintroduce new species, act as the eyes and ears for the NWPS and Gardai?

There's more than enough positive stuff to get through before we start pointing out that the GAA has had more kids drop dead on their pitches in the last few years than we have had accidents in the last few centuries.

Come on now, no one said anything abut leading with that.
I'm a member of a sport with a fantastic safety record, great competitions, many international visitors. Comparing safety standards, we should be very proud of this. I just want our sport to be treated with the respect it deserves as opposed to wiping the thing out.
You know the official reason for the clampdown is safety concerns and that's balderdash on every level that it can be discussed on.
We have to be prepared to discuss the safety disinformation being used to scare the politicians.

Deaf git

Couple of points to consider....

Most Gardai read the first set of Commissioners Guidelines, shrugged and applied them- well kind of, for the bulk of shooters.

Some Gardai read the first set of guidelines and chucked them in the bin, deciding instead to apply their own version of the legislation.

Gardai are not strong on admin, IT systems etc and on top of lower pay the ordinary dogface is peeved with the amount of work associated with firearms and hence the screwups on basic functions.

We can't reform or change the ethos or difficulties within AGS.

We need the sort of civilianised system that exists in other more developed jurisdictions as discussed on previous pages. If we are in a row over changes to legislation we might as well have a go at the structures too.

I attended HH last night. I'm more convinced now for the need to appoint a neutral advocate to represent shooters views. A neutral advocate could be more acceptable to the various shooters groups and present a unified front. A detailed knowledge of firearms law, general legal principles, political procedures and good communication skills are required.

Sparks

Tea drinker wrote: »

Come on now, no one said anything abut leading with that.

Sorry, my bad, misread you.

I just want our sport to be treated with the respect it deserves as opposed to wiping the thing out.

You and me and everyone else I think.

You know the official reason for the clampdown is safety concerns and that's balderdash on every level that it can be discussed on.
We have to be prepared to discuss the safety disinformation being used to scare the politicians.

Yup, I just think if we lead off with that, by jumping at the AGS's tar baby of a document, we'll be doing it wrong and we'll lose and our sports suffer for it.

yubabill1

This is not the time for recriminations, but I think it's too late for an FCP and there is no place for an FCP in the game being played by AGS/DoJ here:

Take a look at the articles over the summer which hit at licensed firearms holders (journal.ie mostly because it was easier to use one rag)-

http://www.thejournal.ie/guns-in-ireland-1576581-Jul2014/ article on firearms thefts -the Daddy


http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/one-firearm-stolen-or-lost-daily-over-last-four-years-275887.html Similar article on #licensed firearms stolen over x years


http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-gun-amnesty-1517125-Jun2014/ 72% support 10,151 views: 4478 votes



http://www.thejournal.ie/government-considering-firearms-body-1518174-Jun2014/ Minister "I will decide on the nature of the consultation and what meetings are appropriate at the time I am considering the report."



http://www.thejournal.ie/gun-crime-ireland-dublin-west-increase-1662616-Sep2014/ study "high velocity vs low velocity" firearms injuries



http://www.thejournal.ie/gun-control-restrictions-1779301-Nov2014/


Anyone can see a summer-long co-ordinated campaign to undermine licensed firearm holders. Some of the info in these articles appears in the AGS/DoJ proposals.

They failed to get any traction with the public safety agenda, though - an inherent weakness in their case.

We can take this apart.

The problem I see is that they have set up an email consultation process.

Cass

yubabill1 wrote: »

This is not the time for recriminations, but I think it's too late for an FCP and there is no place for an FCP in the game being played by AGS/DoJ here:

The coalition is a form of an FCP, is it not?. Firearms Consultancy Panel. They are attempting, according to their mandate, to find meaningful negotiations with AGS/DoJ on the proposals. Have their input heard.

yubabill1

yubabill1 wrote: »

Anyone can see a summer-long co-ordinated campaign to undermine licensed firearm holders. Some of the info in these articles appears in the AGS/DoJ proposals.

They failed to get any traction with the public safety agenda, though - an inherent weakness in their case.

We can take this apart.

The problem I see is that they have set up an email consultation process.



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Now contrast the previous articles with the reporting of firearm theft/crime BEFORE Judge Whatshisname expressed surprise that Gardaí had not raised public safety concerns in firearms licensing court cases:

http://www.thejournal.ie/crime-burglaries-and-fraud-rise-other-offences-fall-401395-Mar2012/
Possession of a firearm offences fell from 415 in 2010 to 296 in 2011, a decrease of over 28 per cent, while the number of offensive weapons offences fell from 3,040 to 2,625, marking a decrease of 13.7 per cent


http://www.thejournal.ie/gun-licensing-laws-control-ireland-review-compensation-1339959-Mar2014/ nasrpc sponsored article

http://cdn.thejournal.ie/media/2014/03/firearm-robberies-stats.png link from above showing 50% decrease in firearms thefts 2003-13


http://www.thejournal.ie/frances-fitzgerald-garda-commissioner-1522872-Jun2014/ The minister said that gun crime "represents a real challenge for policing and poses significant potential for harm in the community", and referenced a fall in both firearm offences and crimes involving a firearm by around 7% last year due to a "robust response" from gardaí.



http://www.thejournal.ie/firearms-seized-1583874-Jul2014/ #seizures down significantly


Now, can anybody seriously believe even after a summer of spin, that public safety is at risk from rogue licensed firearms holders?

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

there is no place for an FCP in the game being played by AGS/DoJ here:

First thing - the FCP was never in the AGS's best interests. It still happened, because it is in the Minister's best interests. That's not changed. If she could take this noise (and that's all she really sees us as, we're too small for anything else) and wrap it up in the FCP and forget about it, she's got more than enough other things trying to bring her down that she's not likely to waste much time on the decision to kick the can down the road. That buys us time, and gets us in the door to get at the proposals and amend them.

Take a look at the articles over the summer which hit at licensed firearms holders (journal.ie mostly because it was easier to use one rag)-

Yes, but look at the authors and motives. On your list it goes:

• AGS
• AGS
• AGS
• Minister kicking can down the road
• Daft medical article during silly season
• AGS proposals being reported on

This isn't like 2008, when every single article was reporting on a policy coming straight from a Minister as a defence against Deasy's claptrap in the Dail (this time, it's a proposed change put forward in a working report by the AGS, which is weak sauce by comparison - but we're not in the place where we can argue about it most effectively, which is why we're so worried).

We start seeing the Minister coming forward with stuff of her own saying she wants a ban, that's a different ball game but right now, it's the AGS lobbying the Minister for changes. That's the FCP's playing field right there.

yubabill1

Cass wrote: »

The coalition is a form of an FCP, is it not?. Firearms Consultancy Panel. They are attempting, according to their mandate, to find meaningful negotiations with AGS/DoJ on the proposals. Have their input heard.

That's fine by me, just that

(i)it's time to concentrate our energies/ resources/ limited time in whatever way we can right now (email etc),

(ii)looks like the authorities are not interested in consultation, really.

Maybe the email blizzard will change this and get them to sit down with whomever, but the blizzard must happen for the sit down to happen.

Sparks

Cass wrote: »

The coalition is a form of an FCP, is it not?. Firearms Consultancy Panel. They are attempting, according to their mandate, to find meaningful negotiations with AGS/DoJ on the proposals. Have their input heard.

Except that as far as the Minister is concerned, they're just another private group of citizens. They've no inside track, they aren't sitting down inside the tent. The FCP actually was, because it was the Minister's table and the AGS were coming to it as equals with everyone else in there. When we stepped away, the AGS were free to go see the Minister in any way they wanted because the official channels weren't open anymore. In effect, we untied their hands.

SVI40

@ Tea Drinker,

The initial reply was a generic from one of his assistants, to which I replied, that I, and every other shooter in his constituency, wanted to hear from him, what his position is.

Be assured, I am doing all I can to rally the troops. My friends are fully in support of us, even those who would not have any interest in firearms. They are seeing how unjustly we are being treated. They will be sending in submissions to Justice in support of us. Every club member, 150+, is being encouraged (hounded) daily, to visit their local representatives' clinics. As was pointed out by the gentleman, I cannot remember who, in HH last night, 35,000 submissions got the EirGrid roll out halted, and sent back for review, and further consultation.

No matter what anyone thinks of the personalties involved, we are in this together. All the past history needs to be put in the past if our sport is to survive. If we all work together, and not leave it to others, we can get this put on hold, and, hopefully, have meaningful and, dare I say it, honest, discussion with Justice and AGS.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

First thing - the FCP was never in the AGS's best interests. It still happened, because it is in the Minister's best interests. That's not changed. If she could take this noise (and that's all she really sees us as, we're too small for anything else) and wrap it up in the FCP and forget about it, she's got more than enough other things trying to bring her down that she's not likely to waste much time on the decision to kick the can down the road. That buys us time, and gets us in the door to get at the proposals and amend them.


We start seeing the Minister coming forward with stuff of her own saying she wants a ban, that's a different ball game but right now, it's the AGS lobbying the Minister for changes. That's the FCP's playing field right there.

There is still no room for FCP in the AGS/DoJ game I outlined - but, as you point out - there might be room in the Minister's game for FCP.

Sparks

And the Minister is the one who calls the shots.

yubabill1

I just want to recap the last few posts, because, as a group effort here we might be getting some clarity;

I. Shooters agree on an email/ lobby blizzard

2. Despite a summer smear campaign to discredit and undermine us as a group, the public have practically zero concerns about

Licensed firearms being stolen and used for crime

Mass shootings involving licensed firearms in Ireland

3. AGS/DoJ are lobbying the Minister for Justice, (just like us thro' our TD's)

4. The minister has not expressed a policy on this area / she has more pressing concerns

5. An effective shooter's lobby by email/ contact/ follow-up could lead to the Minister kicking the whole thing to review.

Sparks

Pretty much. 5 is the bit where we start to differ as to how to proceed.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

Pretty much. 5 is the bit where we start to differ as to how to proceed.

Time enough to worry about 5 when we get there.

from this remove, I'll bet shooting groups will be happy to co-operate with each other by that time.

We can take this down.

yubabill1

yubabill1 wrote: »

I just want to recap the last few posts, because, as a group effort here we might be getting some clarity;

I. Shooters agree on an email/ lobby blizzard

2. Despite a summer smear campaign to discredit and undermine us as a group, the public have practically zero concerns about

Licensed firearms being stolen and used for crime

Mass shootings involving licensed firearms in Ireland

3. AGS/DoJ are lobbying the Minister for Justice, (just like us thro' our TD's)

4. The minister has not expressed a policy on this area / she has more pressing concerns

5. An effective shooter's lobby by email/ contact/ follow-up could lead to the Minister kicking the whole thing to review.

Couple of things I thought of overnight -

RE: 4. While not a policy, the Minister has mentioned mass murders involving licensed firearms in other jurisdictions and the fact that options need consideration READ: I'm under pressure from the EU / AGS

RE: 5. We have been given a 30 day deadline for submissions - too short by far.

Will be sending a couple more emails.

Will be going face-to-face with a couple of TD's.

Zxthinger

Proponents of reloading are probably the largest tangible group with a gripe directed to this document. I'm here to highlight that fact and rally them to the call!

If you ever thought you'd see reloading then you better get off you backside and start lobbying.
Originally i was only concerned with relaxing the laws on air rifles and the rollout of reloading on a par with our eu neighbours but that was before this outrageous document was unmuzzled.

Now I have seen the true colours and intent of those who aim to stifle shooting sports by scare mongering and cherry picking of the facts!
Im asking all reloaders and aspiring reloaders to lobby the PTB and join this movement!
I live for shooting! I love shooting! And I will never forget this nor will I forget those who might implement such draconian measures by signing them into law.

I now support pistol shooters..
I now support s/a c/f shooters..
I now support s/a SG shooters..
I now support reloaders

I'm hopeful that some of the owners of the near 50,000 rifle licences out there will see this attack upon reloading as a totally unjust and reject any piecemeal promises. I'm hopeful too that the midlands reloaders recognise that any continuation of their pilot scheam is only a poor second class alternative to that which other Europeans enjoy and for that reason they too will support all of the above!

I said it before but I'll say it again! We need to look for more than that which is offered! We should have long be lobbying for reduced restriction on air rifles, and for other methods of hunting to be introduced! It seems that if you sit tight and look content with your lot, then the PTB will circle you and try to give you a haircut on your rights/privileges etc etc.

Grizzly 45

Sparks wrote: »

Pretty much. 5 is the bit where we start to differ as to how to proceed.

Two pronged approach.We obviously wont and cant sort out the differences of decades and all personal gripes within three weeks.So its best that both fronts go for the same target,with as little infighting and bitching as possible.

Second point...We need to push for an extension for time on the written and ORAL submissions.As we can rightly claim we want time to study this document and be able to refute it properly and coherently.Dont think the IFA,GAA or any other organisation would be just given a such short period to submit anything if it was about their circumstances.
It buys us time to build up more of a case and also the minister as things will proably get even more tense after today and whatever outcome the water charge debate produces.

Third point. We can rightly point out that this doucment has been produced by an organisation whose senior ranks who wrote this are at the moment is LESS than creditable in the public eye.
Thats their Achilles heel in this

This year we have had at least five major scandals with the AGS high command being involved and also that they have now got TWO senior figures under investigation by GSOC and the DPP for perjury and tampering with offical documentation in a high court case or cases involving firearms.
This is now an organisation that wants to award itself extra discretionry powers and arbitary ones as well...???We saw how well discretionary powers were used with penalty points didn't we this year??

This is I think one KEY POINT that needs to be raised again again and again.
They tried to beat us in the courts and couldnt do it,now they want to beat us with legislation,fine if the AGS were clean in this matter,but they are dirty as hell in their dealings with us and the public .

yubabill1

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Third point. We can rightly point out that this doucment has been produced by an organisation whose senior ranks who wrote this are at the moment is LESS than creditable in the public eye.
Thats their Achilles heel in this

This year we have had at least five major scandals with the AGS high command being involved and also that they have now got TWO senior figures under investigation by GSOC and the DPP for perjury and tampering with offical documentation in a high court case or cases involving firearms.
This is now an organisation that wants to award itself extra discretionry powers and arbitary ones as well...???We saw how well discretionary powers were used with penalty points didn't we this year??

This is I think one KEY POINT that needs to be raised again again and again.
They tried to beat us in the courts and couldnt do it,now they want to beat us with legislation,fine if the AGS were clean in this matter,but they are dirty as hell in their dealings with us and the public .

Do you mean that Gardai have mishandled the areas where they have recently been given additional powers to administer and enforce the law?

Previously, enforcement was only within the power of the courts/justice system - processed by legal professionals (on-the-spot fines/penalty points are essentially Judge Dredd summary justice). Penalty points remain an indefensible shambles.

In much the same way, firearms owners have been subjected to summary justice wrt who gets to license what - evidenced by hundreds of court cases as we all know.

We must take the s**t we are going to sling at AGS/DoJ and wrap it in nice, glittery wrap.

good points, Griz

I am spending waay too much time on this.
got almost no work done yesterday.

nastros

Zxthinger wrote: »

Proponents of reloading are probably the largest tangible group with a gripe directed to this document. I'm here to highlight that fact and rally them to the call!

If you ever thought you'd see reloading then you better get off you backside and start lobbying.
Originally i was only concerned with relaxing the laws on air rifles and the rollout of reloading on a par with our eu neighbours but that was before this outrageous document was unmuzzled.

Now I have seen the true colours and intent of those who aim to stifle shooting sports by scare mongering and cherry picking of the facts!
Im asking all reloaders and aspiring reloaders to lobby the PTB and join this movement!
I live for shooting! I love shooting! And I will never forget this nor will I forget those who might implement such draconian measures by signing them into law.

I now support pistol shooters..
I now support s/a c/f shooters..
I now support s/a SG shooters..
I now support reloaders

I'm hopeful that some of the owners of the near 50,000 rifle licences out there will see this attack upon reloading as a totally unjust and reject any piecemeal promises. I'm hopeful too that the midlands reloaders recognise that any continuation of their pilot scheam is only a poor second class alternative to that which other Europeans enjoy and for that reason they too will support all of the above!

I said it before but I'll say it again! We need to look for more than that which is offered! We should have long be lobbying for reduced restriction on air rifles, and for other methods of hunting to be introduced! It seems that if you sit tight and look content with your lot, then the PTB will circle you and try to give you a haircut on your rights/privileges etc etc.

I think the reloading section of the document is the one that hit home the hardest for me. I was hoping to at least allow some reloading at home like even one small tub of powder and one pack of primers or something. But as it stands it looks like you would have to build your own bunker like the lads at the midlands had to do just to get the scheme.

Witcher

You'll be lucky to have a gun at all if this goes through nevermind reload for it.

Sparks

Zxthinger wrote: »

I'm hopeful too that the midlands reloaders recognise that any continuation of their pilot scheam is only a poor second class alternative to that which other Europeans enjoy and for that reason they too will support all of the above!

This kind of backhanded sideswipe is why all the shouting in the last two dozen or so posts exists zxthinger. The midlands dumped a huge amount of work, time and money into getting a pilot scheme running and if they hadn't jammed their foot in that door, it would have been slammed shut on everyone a long time ago. You don't need to buy the I-Love-Midlands T-shirt, but it'd be civil and polite if people stopped talking about them as though they'd sold everyone out when it was other people who actually said "No, we don't need reloading, people have no real requirement for it" to the PTB.

Sparks

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Two pronged approach.We obviously wont and cant sort out the differences of decades and all personal gripes within three weeks.So its best that both fronts go for the same target,with as little infighting and bitching as possible.

Then could people stop saying stupid things like "Everyone has to join the Sport Coalition, and we should be lobbying the NGBs who haven't to do so"? At best it just gets people's backs up and isn't productive. If we're all trying to do the same thing, it's not even necessary.

Second point...We need to push for an extension for time on the written and ORAL submissions.

Yup.

Third point. We can rightly point out that this doucment has been produced by an organisation whose senior ranks who wrote this are at the moment is LESS than creditable in the public eye.

We can, and we'd be right, but I'm not sure it'd be the most effective approach. One way or another, we're going to have to work with these people in the future (the only way we don't is if there's been a full ban on all private firearms ownership brought in).

Not to mention, raising the matter of Garda scandals in the press as a direct argument to a Minister who's seeing scandals in the press as a pretty strong threat to her current post is quite probably not the best way to get what we need. She can't sack the whole Garda force, so she's more likely to just try to dismiss us instead if we go down that route. Problems that directly relate to licencing (senior Gardai altering forms mid-court-case, "lost" paperwork, that sort of thing) might be fair game, but you start talking about PULSE reclassification of assaults to lower category crimes, penalty points being lost and those things and the first statement you'll hear back is that "those have nothing to do with firearms legislation and please stick to the agenda" because politicians know about the Lyndon B Johnson trick and like it or not, they're professionals and this is their job.

hurlsey

Gentlemen, the IFA participated in the overturn of the licence fee hike, has anybody sought to involve them as a group? With a vested interest in some of these proposals!! Most notably the "discretionary powers of refusal"

Zxthinger

Sparks wrote: »

This kind of backhanded sideswipe is why all the shouting in the last two dozen or so posts exists zxthinger. The midlands dumped a huge amount of work, time and money into getting a pilot scheme running and if they hadn't jammed their foot in that door, it would have been slammed shut on everyone a long time ago. You don't need to buy the I-Love-Midlands T-shirt, but it'd be civil and polite if people stopped talking about them as though they'd sold everyone out when it was other people who actually said "No, we don't need reloading, people have no real requirement for it" to the PTB.

It's not a backhanded sideswipe! The fact is that reloading under the regime of DOJ which is permitted in the midlands or in another organisation for that matter is reloading for second class citizens!

Fair play to the midlands if you like, I'm not here to troll the waters I'm just here to tell current reloaders that they shouldn't just accept this as the norm, they should lobby for reloading as seen in other European countries.


In fact the reloading proposal is probably the the most insulting thing that I have ever seen proposed for grown men and women who own and operate firearms. It sickens me to the pith of my stomach. It's the last straw for me and I will act upon it.
I'm not here to cause any in fighting! I don't think my post provoked anyone and it was not intended to!
Reloaders need to sink the proposal that pertains to them and this IMO is best done by showing the good side of shooting!


However, although firearms and such paraphranailia are only a privilege in this country I think that the ethos of freedom and liberty need to highlight the pure inconsistencies that such proposals bring to us! as alleged europan citizens.