Gardai proposals to ban firearms

ntipptop

has anyone actually got proper stats on stolen firearms, apart from the ags OWN stats ????
I think we need these to be forwarded to the tds. aswell
what I see in the report is that its suggesting that all firearms used in crime, including murders, come from law abiding citizens
could anyone get stats from customs on how many firearms that they have seized ????
Might show what is actually happening in crime land

Sparks

.243 wrote: »

You only have to look at dunblane,yes they were leaglly held

Actually, they weren't - he'd lied on his application form which under the law at the time means the licence was null and void. But that's the technicality - the real issue was that the police had interviewed him ahead of his licence reapplication because of complaints from parents in the area regarding paedophelia and the recommendation (which was countersigned by a second local police officer) was to take his firearms away and never licence him for them ever again. That recommendation was overruled by the Scottish police.
If you're going to look at these things, look at them, not the tabloid reports of them.

Sparks

From Broadsheet.ie:
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/11/17/leave-our-guns-alone/

Further to planned new restrictions on gun ownership in Ireland.

An honest attempt to reduce the number of firearms?

Or a deliberate attempt to demonise licensed firearm owners - farmers, hunters, paintballers, vets and sportspeople – all of whom “are personally vetted and signed off by the Gardai themselves?

Marksman Mark Dennehy writes:

Let’s start with the basics: Yes, ordinary people in Ireland own firearms for perfectly good legal reasons...continues

It got hit by the spelling autocorrect monster in one or two places, but mostly it's okay I think. Not a horrid end result for a day's typing. Now on to emailing my local TDs...

bravestar

ntipptop wrote: »

has anyone actually got proper stats on stolen firearms, apart from the ags OWN stats ????
I think we need these to be forwarded to the tds. aswell
what I see in the report is that its suggesting that all firearms used in crime, including murders, come from law abiding citizens
could anyone get stats from customs on how many firearms that they have seized ????
Might show what is actually happening in crime land

Ah come on, it says that they don't know the amount of legally held firearms used because the firearm is not always recovered. I'm as against this as the next guy but don't go exaggerating things, it only undermines our side.

Grizzly 45

Seem to be the only stats out there and all the other sites like gunpolicy .org ,which are anti gun groups BTW have faithfully copied them.:rolleyes:
Garbage in garbage out.

yubabill1

Sparks wrote: »

From Broadsheet.ie:
http://www.broadsheet.ie/2014/11/17/leave-our-guns-alone/



It got hit by the spelling autocorrect monster in one or two places, but mostly it's okay I think. Not a horrid end result for a day's typing. Now on to emailing my local TDs...

A good, rounded argument, cogently-put and argued with nothing but reason.

(I especially like the bit where you mention efforts to discredit us as a group).

Expect an emotive response.

Well done, Sparks.

Tea drinker

First email sent today. Let the floodgates open!

There's a meeting in Harbour house tonight?

yubabill1

yubabill1 wrote: »

(I especially like the bit where you mention efforts to discredit us as a group).

Expect an emotive response.

Told you so!

Read Medium Sized C's posts on your article.

Post#1 makes him sound reasonable and looks like he's one of us.

Post#2 conveys his real message.

What's the next action in his SOP guidebook?

ntipptop

bravestar wrote: »

Ah come on, it says that they don't know the amount of legally held firearms used because the firearm is not always recovered. I'm as against this as the next guy but don't go exaggerating things, it only undermines our side.

im not exaggerating things, what I was trying to suggest is that we furnish them with some true facts!!!!!
thus further discrediting the powers in charge at the moment, and proving that they do in fact distort the truth!!!!!
I am 200% present behind this
I emailed w o dea td, and he told me he is going to raise the matter on tuesday

knockon

ntipptop wrote: »

im not exaggerating things, what I was trying to suggest is that we furnish them with some true facts!!!!!
thus further discrediting the powers in charge at the moment, and proving that they do in fact distort the truth!!!!!
I am 200% present behind this
I emailed w o dea td, and he told me he is going to raise the matter on tuesday

With respect....Willie O Dea's cabinet colleague Dermot Ahern said this 6 years ago....and he did nothing about it then.

"The Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern has said that he will taking action to crack the gun culture in Ireland with new laws banning all handguns".

bravestar

ntipptop wrote: »

im not exaggerating things, what I was trying to suggest is that we furnish them with some true facts!!!!!
thus further discrediting the powers in charge at the moment, and proving that they do in fact distort the truth!!!!!
I am 200% present behind this
I emailed w o dea td, and he told me he is going to raise the matter on tuesday

I agree with you regarding facts and good on you for the email.

ntipptop

knockon wrote: »

With respect....Willie O Dea's cabinet colleague Dermot Ahern said this 6 years ago....and he did nothing about it then.

"The Minister for Justice Dermot Ahern has said that he will taking action to crack the gun culture in Ireland with new laws banning all handguns".

yes but was he looking for votes then ????
with respect, should everyone stop emailing because of there cabinet colleagues ????
some td with a pair, might actually stand up to this and until then I think every td should be informed of what is going on and see who's in and who's out at the next time they want or votes

knockon

ntipptop wrote: »

yes but was he looking for votes then ????
with respect, should everyone stop emailing because of there cabinet colleagues ????
some td with a pair, might actually stand up to this and until then I think every td should be informed of what is going on and see who's in and who's out at the next time they want or votes

You are quite right. Every TD needs to know regardless of what happened. I am venting on the past so I need to move on......

Incidentally after I made contact with the 2 local TD in Limerick I dropped a strongly worded email to finegael@finegael.ie an hour ago. Something for the spindoctors to chew on. Now to arrange a face to face with Kieran O Donnell TD....

clivej

Very good read here. Well put together article on the current situation.
http://lm.facebook.com/l.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.broadsheet.ie%2F2014%2F11%2F17%2Fleave-our-guns-alone%2F&h=tAQEW03d2&s=1

Kryten

Yes. It is a good article. Fair play

BattleCorp

BoatMad wrote: »

This current problem is about handguns, thats the kernel, they have a single use in this state, thats is target shooting. The numbers involved are small compared to holders of ordinary shotguns and bolt action rifles.

It's not just about handguns. This proposed legislation will affect every single shooter in Ireland. It gives the Gardai the power to refuse a licence (any gun licence, not just pistols) to the most saintly man in Ireland simply because of the area that he lives in or the amount of legally held guns already in the area.

What happens if the Super decides that the safe limit for firearms in his district is 1. That means that if he thinks a number higher than 1 is too many, then he is free to refuse to licence any more, no matter how much of a need you have for the firearm or how good your character is..

I know I'm being a bit ridiculous with that statement but that is what this legislation could lead to.

SO the arguments have to be carefully presented. The farmers can be easily bought off by be told that no provisions affect them etc. Then the TDs just sigh and move on.

But this legislation does impact on farmers, a lot of them have semi auto or pump action shotguns that will become illegal at the stroke of a pen.

The IFA should be contacted and made aware of this but I assume they have been already.


This bullsh1t legislation won't just hit a few pistol shooters, it'll screw everybody.

Tea drinker

Don't forget to remind the politicians of the inevitable job losses that will come from the collapse of our sport.
Ranges, suppliers, Dealers are all going to be under severe pressure to stay open.
I feel many/most will be closing as a direct result.

Kramer

Anyone from down Limerick/Clare/Kerry way heading to the 7pm HH meeting?
Carpool? PM me..
Thx.

ntipptop

Kramer wrote: »

Anyone from down Limerick/Clare/Kerry way heading to the 7pm HH meeting?
Carpool? PM me..
Thx.

some lads meeting in Obama plaza around 5/530

clivej

Remember the information meeting at Harbour House shooting club tonight. Looking like a couple/few TD's are going to turn up.

Heckler

Tea drinker wrote: »

Don't forget to remind the politicians of the inevitable job losses that will come from the collapse of our sport.
Ranges, suppliers, Dealers are all going to be under severe pressure to stay open.
I feel many/most will be closing as a direct result.

Already looking like my range is thinking of closing its doors. Everyone just sick and tired of all the bull****. If the pistols are taken the membership will half and make the club unviable. Decimating shooting sports for absolutely no good reason. Its maddening.

ipnet

BattleCorp wrote: »

It's not just about handguns. This proposed legislation will affect every single shooter in Ireland. It gives the Gardai the power to refuse a licence (any gun licence, not just pistols) to the most saintly man in Ireland simply because of the area that he lives in or the amount of legally held guns already in the area.

What happens if the Super decides that the safe limit for firearms in his district is 1. That means that if he thinks a number higher than 1 is too many, then he is free to refuse to licence any more, no matter how much of a need you have for the firearm or how good your character is..

I know I'm being a bit ridiculous with that statement but that is what this legislation could lead to.



But this legislation does impact on farmers, a lot of them have semi auto or pump action shotguns that will become illegal at the stroke of a pen.

The IFA should be contacted and made aware of this but I assume they have been already.


This bullsh1t legislation won't just hit a few pistol shooters, it'll screw everybody.

Very true, according to the report "An Garda Síochána also advise that as of the 17th of January 2014 there were 184 licences for semi-automatic centre- fire rifles and 8,763 licences for semi automatic and pump action shotguns, of which 45 semi-automatic shotguns (capable of holding more than 3 rounds) are licensed as restricted firearms." It's likely many of those 8,763 licences will fall foul of the proposed legislation and belong to farmers.

meathstevie

If these proposals stop gangsters from committing murders I will grind up my guns, dress in sackcloth and ashes and personally deliver the pieces of scrap metal to the Department of Justice while flogging myself with briars.

This discussion crops up with predictable regularity and it appears like every time a government is in hot water, of their own inept making by the way, we get a kick in the balls for their day or two of easy headlines.

As for the legal advice that was referred to in the document; we may not have an untouchable right to possess firearms but
we do definitely have a right to own and enjoy our property which is protected by national and European law and infringements of that by new legislation are as far as I know contestable through the legal system. The other side of that coin unfortunately is that if one thinks that Dublin is expensive to obtain justice Strasbourg will cost multiples and time frames are like deep space travel.

BattleCorp

ipnet wrote: »

Very true, according to the report "An Garda Síochána also advise that as of the 17th of January 2014 there were 184 licences for semi-automatic centre- fire rifles and 8,763 licences for semi automatic and pump action shotguns, of which 45 semi-automatic shotguns (capable of holding more than 3 rounds) are licensed as restricted firearms." It's likely many of those 8,763 licences will fall foul of the proposed legislation and belong to farmers.

Any gun can fall foul of the new regulations, not just pump action or semi auto shotguns.

This proposed legislation gives a Super the opportunity to ban firearms based on his own personal opinion of firearms regardless of the applicants need or character just by stating the words 'public safety concerns'.

Totally discriminatory.

If a Super decides that they don't want any more legally held guns in their district, they just have to cite 'public safety concerns' and you don't get your olympic style pistol, your single shot benchrest bolt action rifle, anything really.

ipnet

BattleCorp wrote: »

Any gun can fall foul of the new regulations, not just pump action or semi auto shotguns.

This proposed legislation gives a Super the opportunity to ban firearms based on his own personal opinion of firearms regardless of the applicants need or character just by stating the words 'public safety concerns'.

Totally discriminatory.

If a Super decides that they don't want any more legally held guns in their district, they just have to cite 'public safety concerns' and you don't get your olympic style pistol, your single shot benchrest bolt action rifle, anything really.

I think that point needs to brought home to people that hold shotguns or rifles for hunting/vermin control purposes. That's a lot of people, probably in excess of 100,000. Any media campaign or press coverage needs to focus on this. The message should be simple: if this legislation is brought in, there's a good chance your shotgun or rifle firearms certificate might not be renewed, you will have to forfeit your firearm and receive nothing in compensation. That might at least take away some of the proposed absolute power from the Super and give some recourse to the courts.

yubabill1

Was at the meeting in HH last night.
3 local TDs and one councillor attended and listened carefully;
Sean O Fearghail, TD FF
Martin Heydon TD FG
Sean Fleming TD FF
Cllr. Martin Miley FF.

Well over 100 maybe approaching 200 people there. Met a couple of old friends I hadn't seen in years (over 25 years in one case).


Dr Lydia Foy, transgender campaigner who won the right to have her birth cert amended gave some helpful advice.

Had to leave early, because Des Crofton was welded to the microphone and it was basically a lecture. Can see how shooting groups remain divided.

Will be emailing today.

Grizzly 45

Total head count 350 and great to put a few faces to names from boards there!
Pity you left early,The TDs did come up with some valueable contributions.

1] We need to get about a100k worth of signitures in a petition stating that this law is flawed wrong and just plain immoral.This was one one of them who have been involved in the anti pylon charges and they forced a review and change with 45K worth of signitures.WE CAN DO BETTER THAN THAT hopefully!

2] Demand to meet the minister herself to put our case across.Would the IFA or GAA just be fobbed off with "written submissions"if somthing was affecting them?? Push your legislators to to set up a meeting with the shooting repersentatives on a local club level and for the shooting organisations to meet her[Que Sparks ...FCP:D:D]

3] KEEP IT CIVIL.A point made by Des.There have been already a few narky mails and letters sent to the DOJ/ministers office and FG TDs,and it does us no favours.
Especially now with the water charges demos getting bolshie,and talk of tooling up the Gardai on ministerial protection duty.The LAST thing we need is coming across like a bunch of "Angry Irish gun nuts threatning minister".[Daily scum headline on day]

4] Disscet the report and publish our own,as stated it is a masterfully crafted document to scare the bejausus out of anyone NOT fammilar with the gun laws here.With all sorts of stories of mas shootings and Gardai not being able to trace removed serial numbers...On aside,that doesn't say much for the Garda ballistics section then,as there are some exellent methods in forensic science to do bring up removed numbers,and if they couldnt do it, a call to the BKA,Scotland Yard or the BATFE/FBI labs might have been in order...But I guess the head of the dept was more busy in our DC s around the land wittering on about "combat pistols":rolleyes: Your tax euros at work!

5] Get off your Butts and get out letter writing,emailing,into your TDs clinics and FOLLOW it up. Call them back at least once a week to keep them under pressure ..The more times they see and hear of this the better for us. You have no excuses.Email ,Facebook,Twitter ,whatever.Get signitures on petitions [However,no messing like putting your dead grandparents or kids names on it...Leave those tactics to the antis no wonder hey arent taken seriously]

We CAN turn this,but we need everyone to do their bit.

What did YOU do in the gun grab of 2014 to stop it??
Grizzly45

Zxthinger

This proposal also sets out to control aspects of reloading and storage if powder etc etc!
It's a document that cherry picks stats and prohibitive secondary legislation from several other countries!
It pays no attention to how reloading is controlled in other countries
Afaik it seems that the doc also admits that a storage of explosives was always allowed under the 1875act!
Has anyone else looked into this section! Please advise! The doc is poorly written.

It's sets out controls which go above and beyond those of our neighbours and it specifically states that reloading will be allowed only under certain circumstances.
It seems that this bit if legislation will nit be tackled for the foreseeable future! Seems like a bone was thrown to the wolves to calm them down!!
Opinions please on reloading in the doc

Witcher

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

3] KEEP IT CIVIL. A point made by Des.

:pac:

Oh Crofton you joker. If only he could take his own advice.

ntipptop

if the lads on here put as much energy into trying save the sport than throwing remarks about crofton and whatever group you might have some chance saving it
and by the way im not for or against des crofton or nargc
all im saying is keep yer comments to yerselfs for now
until this is sorted