Gardai proposals to ban firearms

pilatus · 18-11-2014 1:19pm

*****, a chara,

Thank you for your email and raising this issue with me.

I had been in touch previously with the Minister for Justice, Frances Fitzgerald TD, in relation to the matter of firearms licensing and I have met with Des Crofton, the National Director of the NARGC to hear the Council’s position.

I intend on bringing your concerns to the Minister’s attention and will be in touch with any feedback I receive.

Le gach dea-ghuí,

____________
Joe McHugh
Fine Gael TD for Donegal

Aire Stáit do Ghnóthaí Gaeltachta agus Acmhainní Nádúrtha

Minister of State with Special Responsibility for Gaeltacht Affairs

pilatus · 18-11-2014 1:20pm

*****, a chara,

Thank you for contacting Sinn Féin on this issue.

We have asked the Minister to outline his plans to us regarding the Firearms Licensing System and also if he would facilitate engagement with stakeholders prior to completing this initial review. I have attached the response below.

A Sinn Féin delegation met with Mr Des Crofton of the National Association of Regional Game Councils and Mr Michael Tope of the National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs to listen to their concerns.

Both men drew our attention to the fact that in their opinion there is serious maladministration of the Firearms Licensing System with 93% of refusal cases ending up being overturned in court. We understand too that there are many issues relating to the restricted and non restricted lists of firearms as well as various issues around legal fees.

We have agreed to work with both organisations by submitting further questions to the Minister for Justice on the issues and we are also seeking to have the organisation brought in to present to the Justice Committee where they can outline their issues to all members,

Is mise,
Declan (on behalf of Pearse)

Response to question [18978/14] by Alan Shatter TD - In light of public safety concerns highlighted by An Garda Síochána and difficulties in the interpretation of the legislation expressed by members of the judiciary, my Department is currently examining key policy, legislative, administrative and other issues relating to firearms licensing in conjunction with An Garda Síochána. I expect to receive and consider a report in relation to these matters within 2 months. When I have considered that report I will consider what further action is necessary in relation to the firearms licensing system, including the proposal from interest groups for an examination of relevant administrative issues by the Garda Inspectorate.
Officials of my Department met key interest groups in late 2013 and early 2014 who set out their concerns in relation to a range of issues regarding firearms licensing at that time. These interest groups have also communicated their views directly to me, as well as to all Oireachtas members.
Further consultation with relevant stakeholders will take place when I have considered the report and before any decisions are finalised in relation to proposals for change to the firearms licensing system.

pilatus · 18-11-2014 1:24pm

Replies from Joe McHugh FG and Pearse Doherty SF Donegal . Think Sinn Fein could stand to gain alot from supporting us on this issue .

Sparks · 18-11-2014 1:24pm

A petition stating a law is immoral...
I...
Seriously, my taxes are paying the salary of someone who comes up with that joke as a serious suggestion?
/weeps

You go round with a petition, people sign it, people then think "well, I've done my bit, I don't need to take an hour out on Saturday to go visit my local TD's clinic". You won't, but you're not exactly the statistical norm there Grizz. That's the problem there. Then, even if you get 100k signatures, the Minister says "thank you, I'll be sure to take it under advisement", and she counts up 100,000 votes on one side and 2.9 million on the other side.

[Que Sparks ...FCP:D:D]

Gosh, Grizz, a body where you're officially at the table with the Minister already might be handy about now, wouldn't you say?

KEEP IT CIVIL.A point made by Des.

Can someone call me a doctor please, I think my brain is broken.

There have been already a few narky mails and letters sent to the DOJ/ministers office and FG TDs,and it does us no favours.

Yup, definitely broken. The irony meter exploded and there's shrapnel everywhere.

4] Disscet the report and publish our own,as stated it is a masterfully crafted document to scare the bejausus out of anyone NOT fammilar with the gun laws here.With all sorts of stories of mas shootings and Gardai not being able to trace removed serial numbers...

Oh yes, lets just play the game they ask us to play, with the rules they write and on their turf.

Seriously Grizz, they want us to discuss mass shootings in public. They want us to try to defend our sport from that nightmare, because then all the dialog is about mass shootings, not sport. And it doesn't matter that we can make the argument - Joe Public won't give a crap. He's going to hear the AGS say these can happen and us say they can't and he's going to decide that this is the real question involved, and he doesn't care about our sport and he's risk-averse so he'll side with the AGS.

Seriously. This is not rocket science, this is Lyndon B Johnson territory for feck's sakes. It's one of the oldest tricks on the books.

Get off your Butts and get out letter writing,emailing,into your TDs clinics and FOLLOW it up.

Well, yeah. But I would say that, wouldn't I?

Sparks · 18-11-2014 1:26pm

pilatus wrote: »

Think Sinn Fein could stand to gain alot from supporting us on this issue .

I guess 30 years of that joke about the Irish Olympic team winning the medal but having to give it back 'cos they wouldn't take off the balaclava isn't enough...

Sparks · 18-11-2014 1:27pm

pilatus wrote: »

A Sinn Féin delegation met with Mr Des Crofton of the National Association of Regional Game Councils and Mr Michael Tope of the National Association of Sporting Rifle and Pistol Clubs to listen to their concerns.

Just... wow. I guess our side aren't even up to playing checkers.

Wadi14 · 18-11-2014 1:33pm

pilatus wrote: »

*****, a chara,

Thank you for your email and raising this issue with me.

I had been in touch previously with the Minister for Justice, Frances Fitzgerald TD, in relation to the matter of firearms licensing and I have met with Des Crofton, the National Director of the NARGC to hear the Council’s position.

I intend on bringing your concerns to the Minister’s attention and will be in touch with any feedback I receive.

Le gach dea-ghuí,

____________
Joe McHugh
Fine Gael TD for Donegal

Aire Stáit do Ghnóthaí Gaeltachta agus Acmhainní Nádúrtha

Minister of State with Special Responsibility for Gaeltacht Affairs

I think we are all getting that reply at least he has gone to the bother of checking it out

Tea drinker · 18-11-2014 2:48pm

Sparks wrote: »

Just... wow. I guess our side aren't even up to playing checkers.

I was thinking about this the other day, yeah I don't think having SF as our poster boy will win us the traction and leverage we need. SF are doing very well and who knows what could happen in the next election - but we aren't there yet.

OTOH ANY and all help is not only welcome but needed.

From the meeting I see 3 things that need to happen

1. Motivate every club, and evry member motivates their friends and any shooter and farmer they know.
2. Emails, petitions etc are good, but we need to doorstep the constituency offices to get really noticed.
3. The report needs to be completely discredited. Accurately. And soon.
This is the stick we are going to use against the system

mrbrianj · 18-11-2014 3:05pm

Zxthinger wrote: »

This proposal also sets out to control aspects of reloading and storage if powder etc etc!
It's a document that cherry picks stats and prohibitive secondary legislation from several other countries!
It pays no attention to how reloading is controlled in other countries
Afaik it seems that the doc also admits that a storage of explosives was always allowed under the 1875act!
Has anyone else looked into this section! Please advise! The doc is poorly written.

It's sets out controls which go above and beyond those of our neighbours and it specifically states that reloading will be allowed only under certain circumstances.
It seems that this bit if legislation will nit be tackled for the foreseeable future! Seems like a bone was thrown to the wolves to calm them down!!
Opinions please on reloading in the doc

No I reckon it reads like they are going to tighten up current controls, so people will never be able to reload. Concrete bunkers, inspections and big fees for licences to reload.

Some businesses need the licence to keep explosives (ships chandlers trading in flares etc) therefore they cant make that illegal - but they could redtape the hope for reloading away for good. Anyway, after the pistols and semi auto shootguns are gone - they will come back for the full bore rifles:mad:

Sparks · 18-11-2014 3:06pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

we need to doorstep the constituency offices to get really noticed.

This.
The other stuff, petitions and so on - well, do any of use really need to be told how easy it is to "lose" paperwork?

3. The report needs to be completely discredited. Accurately. And soon.
This is the stick we are going to use against the system

I'm not kidding, if you get into a public debate and let the Gardai set the topic, the terms and drive the question, you might as well just stay home. The AGS would love for this to degrade into a media debate about mass shootings with them saying they have to be risk averse and protecting society is their job -- because that would mean we are on the other side of that argument.

Doesn't matter that the report is ridiculous nonsense because we'll be in the press denying that we're pig****ers.

That'd be about the best gift you could ever give anyone that doesn't like us and wants us gone.

nastros · 18-11-2014 3:13pm

Seems best course of action is as previously stated to sitdown with Justice and discuss the proposal as opposed to lobbying TD's who for the most part do not seem to care. Public debate on firearms always ends badly it will be spun to make everyone look like a bunch of nutters.

Tea drinker · 18-11-2014 3:22pm

nastros wrote: »

Seems best course of action is as previously stated to sitdown with Justice and discuss the proposal as opposed to lobbying TD's who for the most part do not seem to care. Public debate on firearms always ends badly it will be spun to make everyone look like a bunch of nutters.

Justice are against us. We need politicians to change their minds, and to avoid the politicians getting infected with the anti-shooting zombie disease.
(IMHO)

yubabill1 · 18-11-2014 3:23pm

Sparks wrote: »

A petition stating a law is immoral...
I...
Seriously, my taxes are paying the salary of someone who comes up with that joke as a serious suggestion?
/weeps

You go round with a petition, people sign it, people then think "well, I've done my bit, I don't need to take an hour out on Saturday to go visit my local TD's clinic". You won't, but you're not exactly the statistical norm there Grizz. That's the problem there. Then, even if you get 100k signatures, the Minister says "thank you, I'll be sure to take it under advisement", and she counts up 100,000 votes on one side and 2.9 million on the other side.

Gosh, Grizz, a body where you're officially at the table with the Minister already might be handy about now, wouldn't you say?

Can someone call me a doctor please, I think my brain is broken.

Yup, definitely broken. The irony meter exploded and there's shrapnel everywhere.

Oh yes, lets just play the game they ask us to play, with the rules they write and on their turf.

Seriously Grizz, they want us to discuss mass shootings in public. They want us to try to defend our sport from that nightmare, because then all the dialog is about mass shootings, not sport. And it doesn't matter that we can make the argument - Joe Public won't give a crap. He's going to hear the AGS say these can happen and us say they can't and he's going to decide that this is the real question involved, and he doesn't care about our sport and he's risk-averse so he'll side with the AGS.

Seriously. This is not rocket science, this is Lyndon B Johnson territory for feck's sakes. It's one of the oldest tricks on the books.

Well, yeah. But I would say that, wouldn't I?

+1.

Let's keep the emails going, by all means

Let's get a dialogue going with the authorities

Let's get a petition, if that's what people want

Let's not fall into the traps this document/ consultation lays.

Tea drinker · 18-11-2014 3:26pm

Sparks wrote: »

This.
The other stuff, petitions and so on - well, do any of use really need to be told how easy it is to "lose" paperwork?

I'm not kidding, if you get into a public debate and let the Gardai set the topic, the terms and drive the question, you might as well just stay home. The AGS would love for this to degrade into a media debate about mass shootings with them saying they have to be risk averse and protecting society is their job -- because that would mean we are on the other side of that argument.

Doesn't matter that the report is ridiculous nonsense because we'll be in the press denying that we're pig****ers.

That'd be about the best gift you could ever give anyone that doesn't like us and wants us gone.

We must discredit the primary document being used as the proposed way forward. if we can prove to politicians this is doing absolutlely nothing for public safety, and in fact there is no public safety issue to begin with, then more politicians will be inclined to back us.
As it is, the docu feeds on peoples popular misconceptions of the sport and basically links us to criminality. Plenty of politicians will fall for this unless it is wholly discredited.

yubabill1 · 18-11-2014 3:26pm

2 emails sent to local TD's.

Sparks · 18-11-2014 3:27pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

Justice are against us. We need politicians to change their minds

And the only effective way to do that is to be inside the tent.
Which means everyone lobbying everyone on a grassroots level, and then getting the FCP rolling again so these proposals go through that. At best, the government changes and this just goes away in the shuffle. At worse, we get to change the worst of the proposals.

There pretty much isn't any other approach that doesn't end the way the bin taxes fight ended.

Sparks · 18-11-2014 3:37pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

We must discredit the primary document being used as the proposed way forward

But if we get into a public debate against the AGS on mass shootings, we're toast.

This is one document we don't want to challange directly, because it's a tar baby. You're supposed to challange it directly, that's why it's written to be so apparently easy to prove wrong. You get so wound up showing it's wrong that you don't notice you're arguing against the AGS in public about whether or not mass shootings are a risk. You'll convince the 100,000 of us, because we know one end of a firearm from the other. Then you'll turn around to find that the AGS were watching the other 2.9 million voters, who are risk averse and who don't know enough about firearms to make an informed call easily.

And then you've lost.

The way to show their document is bogus isn't to go at it head-on. It's to show everyone out there what firearms legislation in Ireland looks like today. Because Joe Public doesn't know. There's a reason that first line in the broadsheet article is "Yes, ordinary people in Ireland own firearms for perfectly good legal reasons." and it's because Joe Public generally doesn't know even that much. You point out the basic tests for firearms licences, the safeguards in place, all the things we have to do for our licences, and then you show why we do it. You show the medals, the joy of winning competitions, the work done on farms, you show hunting for the pot and the conservation efforts that go with that.

In other words, the Gardai have written down a horror story about a fictional bogeyman. You don't respond to that by discussing the bogeyman in front of a scared audience. You respond by writing the non-fictional account of the good things about our sport and what we give back to the country and how the public are kept safe. They scare the audience; you reassure and give the audience something to feel pride in.

yubabill1 · 18-11-2014 3:49pm

https://prod01-cdn00.cdn.firstlook.org/wp-uploads/sites/1/2014/02/deception_p24.png

Tea drinker · 18-11-2014 3:54pm

^Sparks, you are making a good point. But I argue we don't have to swear an oath on the bible that we will be good little boys, there are so many mistruth in said repor that we could talk for hours about it without ever mentioning risk of injury by a crazy. And even then there's ways to debate on behalf of our sport. Besides, if we aren't ready to discuss that then you can be 100% sure the opposition will bring the convo around to that even if we don't like that.

Sparks · 18-11-2014 3:58pm

Yeah teadrinker, but feck, do we have to do their work for them as well as our own?

Tea drinker · 18-11-2014 4:35pm

Here's a sport with deaths, but no one dares to discuss it because it's "distateful" yet a perfectly accepted sport.
And yeah I support it. But banning this sport would obviously save lives and "increase public safety".
yeah... crickets.

The Irish Underwater Council, the national governing body for divers, has said it is “shocked by the unprecedented occurrence” of six recreational diving fatalities in Irish waters over four weeks between mid-June and mid-July.

However, it has said that a “high level analysis” suggests there is “no emerging trend” among the six incidents.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/no-emerging-trend-among-six-diving-deaths-governing-body-says-1.1870021
I can also mention the huge expenditure on water sports in general, the large support the state gives to these sports.
One rescue I watched
1. Aer corp casa turboprop
2. rescue helo
3. rescue boats
4. Ambulance
5. gardai.

Why is our chosen sport (a very safe sport) where the participants actually pay a licence fee, under such concerted attack?
Where are the Gardai to help organise our events like they do at push bike races? Another sport with fatalities.

Cass · 18-11-2014 5:11pm

Opening
Firstly my apologies for not responding to this thread for the last few days. I have been online, but due to my role as care giver for a family member i've real life stuff to deal with that takes priority.

It was said my response or lack thereof is a sign of my capitulating to being wrong. Some lads immediately stepped in with comments that now is not the time or place for personal issues or any sort of infighting. I fully supported this view and so stood back, did not respond, and allowed the thread to continue. It seems i'm damned if i do reply and damned if i don't. To prevent my lack off response from being bastardised further, here is the response some were looking for. I'll try to keep it as on topic as i can so as not to bring in the infighting and bitching which lads have already said they don't want to see.

Response to direct query.
@ Scalachi - Here are some of the post from that thread by me back in February.

Cass wrote:

Again i'll wait to get some sort of official statement from a Gov. body before believing.

Cass wrote:

As i said above if the organisations that will be directly effected don't know what is coming, the Gardaí involved in dealing with firearms don't know (at least the specifics) then no one else will. The DoJ is not in the business of giving heads ups on probable or possible legislation.

We all have something to loose, myself included, but it will happen with or without our panicking. I'm not saying there is no cause for concern, but lets wait and see what comes.

Cass wrote:

I truly hope i'm right, but will be disappointed, annoyed and angry if i'm wrong. However i'll wait to see what happens rather than panic of nothing which at this point it is.

Cass wrote:

Before i start this is not a "Bash the NASRPC" exercise. I cite them simply as it's their statement that caused the creation of this thread, and they are the only NGB to have mentioned anything about supposed changes.

Cass wrote:

Surely the legislation coming under review does not guarantee changes? I mean the Gardaí must submit dozens if not hundreds of reviews to the Minister's office yearly about firearms and other matters. How many are acted on?

I think that about covers my sentiment on the matter back at the start of the year. Doubtful about all the changes being mentioned, hoping it wouldn't happen, but annoyed/angry if they do.

As the proposals have NOW been announced we can act. As i said back then, and quoted above, they are proposals now, and rumors then. Panicking, scaring folks, and getting riled up on non existent proposals was dangerous. The e-mail barrage sent out back then proves it with Ministers standing up in the Dail, asking questions of Shatter, getting the same standardised (feck off) response, and told no proposals existed, but when available they would be furnished. It made them and us look like fools, and what minister would take another stab at it and risk being seen like that? IOW you cannot fight against something that does not exist. They are still proposals. Going from this stage to an ACT is going to take time, discussion, legal wrangling, and still there is no guarantee that any or all the changes will be enacted. So NOW is the time to act. Not then. I stand by comments from then.

Coalition
The simple fact is the Coalition don't represent the majority/all of shooting sports. They represent certain groups, but lack of the other sporting NGBs and other much larger groups with vested interest is noticeable. The bridges with these were burned some years ago, and no attempt was made to mend them. I believe that now that they are needed the use of "public shaming" to encourage them to join in is not the way forward.

People reading this will immediately go "oh, there he goes again", about the FCP, times gone by, etc. but the fact is past mistakes are being repeated and the end result with be the same. There should NEVER have been a time we were not united. You can have your petty squabbles, and inter sport disputes, but if the FCP was left "ticking over" in the background and used when it was needed we would be much better off than we are now. IOW in on the ground floor, instead of outside looking in.

We do need the support of all the shooting bodies, but as said above "public shaming" and insulting them is not the way to gather that support. Before anyone says they should put aside their differences for the sake of all shooting think of this. As a group/NGB they cannot afford to have personal issues, but it's people running the groups. If they were or believed they were treated poorly before what would encourage them to fall in and not just assemble separate group of their own? IOW risk working with the same people that burned them before with the hope it will not happen again.

The proposals

My out situation
Only in the last week did i make inroads to licensing a semi auto rifle, and seek to have my 9 mm re-licensed to me. That is now knocked on the head. I have current firearms that are effected if all changes are made so cannot sit back and think i'm fine. I'll be as active as anyone, but only now that i have something to argue against. So the proposals do pose a concern for me as 3 of my 5 guns are at risk, and the two restricted ones i was applying for will be refused or ignored until this matter is resolved. Besides my own personal needs there is the matter of my sport. All sports will suffer to some extent, and some will die off. I've personally invested 15+ years into my sports and it kills me to see it slowly disappearing because of the nonsense.

Reloading
I see reloading mentioned. It's only two paragraphs and to paraphrase:

"We intend to tighten up reloading while introducing new definitions/wording that will tighten up any loopholes but at the same time not affecting or repealing any part of the 1875 Act because the proposed new legislation for reloading will not be addressed any time soon. "

He goes on to say it'll still be done under strict conditions and only at the approval of the Explosives section of the Gardaí who have deemed the area/facilities good enough and that they will not cause harm or concern to the public. IOW we cannot refuse you the license to reload, but we can make it so cost prohibitive that you will never be able to fully satisfy the conditions.

I will not derail the thread with defensive posts about the scheme at the NRAI, but will say this. When it was applied for only the NRAI sought it. The VCRAI applied after, but were not able to get it. I've heard for years people saying they (NRAI) done a dirty deal. I've asked for those years for someone to explain to me what exactly the Midlands range/NRAI have that they could surrender/give up to get reloading that the DoJ could not just take from them. The only application that went in for reloading was from the Midlands. Everyone else refused it. A year later the VCRAI submitted an application but with no NGB status, no range, etc they were refused. It was told to us had the MNSCI/NRAI not applied it would be gone and getting any sort of license would be 100 times harder as there was no precedent to cite.

As it stands only someone Euromillions money could attempt to meet or challenge these conditions so it makes them impossible by cost, and not law.

Other aspects
I agree there is a host of nonsense, speculation and at times inaccurate statements in the proposals. I'm choosing my words carefully here. For one thing, and it just one that stood out to me, is this:

Internal review
A possible “internal review” mechanism was considered, also in light of
proposals from shootings groups. While a deciding officer is able to seek
advice from Firearms Policy (FPU) and/or Ballistics Section in An Garda
Síochána as appropriate, the persona designata status means that his/her
ultimate discretion in making a decision on firearms licensing cannot be
fettered in any way. For this reason and having regard to the views of the
Courts an internal review mechanism was not considered a viable option.

The persona designata status was repealed/removed by Ahern? It's these sort of things that need to be addressed. Yes they are small, but if you can pick apart the proposals on incorrect facts while avoiding the topics the DoJ/AGS want us to get into a fight over (mass shootings, etc) then you are one up on them.

What to do

I won't insult anyone by preaching what to do because i'm not qualified to. I have been trying over the last few days to send as many e-mails as i can (given my situation) and make appointments with local TDs in my area. Responses are slow, but like everyone else i'll keep at it.

I agree with some points made in this thread, and not with others. Some of the letters that were circulated to send to TDs seem overly aggressive, and counter productive, but i also understand that sitting on our hands is pointless. I'll continue to read the thread, and my while participation may be little to non existent at times, i am aware of what is going on and regardless of what is said of me or my post count in here i am doing my bit. How could i not?

So there you have it. I hope i have not derailed the thread too much or at all.

Sparks · 18-11-2014 5:13pm

Tea drinker wrote: »

Here's a sport with deaths...

Well, yeah, but we don't have to lead off that way. How many World Championships and World Cups have we won? How many times have we represented our country in the Olympics and in other international events and how many medals have we brought home from all over the world? How much money do we add to the economy every year? How much work do the hunters do to restock species, husband deer herds, reintroduce new species, act as the eyes and ears for the NWPS and Gardai?

There's more than enough positive stuff to get through before we start pointing out that the GAA has had more kids drop dead on their pitches in the last few years than we have had accidents in the last few centuries.

18-11-2014 6:17pm

pilatus wrote: »

*****, a chara,

Thank you for your email and raising this issue with me.

I had been in touch previously with the Minister for Justice, Frances Fitzgerald TD, in relation to the matter of firearms licensing and I have met with Des Crofton, the National Director of the NARGC to hear the Council’s position.

I intend on bringing your concerns to the Minister’s attention and will be in touch with any feedback I receive.

Le gach dea-ghuí,

____________
Joe McHugh
Fine Gael TD for Donegal

Aire Stáit do Ghnóthaí Gaeltachta agus Acmhainní Nádúrtha

Minister of State with Special Responsibility for Gaeltacht Affairs

Got same response

Grizzly 45 · 18-11-2014 7:28pm

Sparks wrote: »

A petition stating a law is immoral...
I...

Ok after shooting the messanger and the shredding the report....Your solution is ......?
1] Yammer on about an organisation that is gone and about as likely to be reconstructed for this as us finding a unicorn on O Connell st tomrrow.

2] Engage in continous bitch fests on how bad Des Crofton and others are and have been in the past and that they are all wrong and you are 100% right??

FFS!! No one is intrested now in how the damn ship sank just right now in this lifeboat!!! You'd all be better employed in emailing TD s getting to meet them and putting pressure on them to get a ministerial meet which would be a better use of everyones time and efforts.
I'm actually not surprised that the DOJ put that comment down on paper that there "would be no meaningful and significant interaction with the stake holders." Considering the stake holders are proably too busy killing each other to be really concerned what the REAL issues are.Namely coming up with a smart ,rational and cohesive strategy to deal with this problem.

This stupid infighting ,bitchiness and cat calling from the shooting organisations between each other is not only disheartning and morale sapping to everyone involved it is as usual making us look like a bunch of amatuers more intent on point scoring than actually dealing with the problems at hand.

Chop each other up like you have been doing for the last three decades when this is over,you'll have plenty of time then as you wont be doing any shooting as there will be nothing left to shoot with.:(
But right now,I think people want to deal with the future problems and solutions,not with the past and woulda,shoulda,coulda rheortic.

richiedel123 · 18-11-2014 8:03pm

Got this reply today lads. Think it's worth a read

Dear ??????
Thank you for taking the time to contact me.

In September 2013 a Joint Working Group made up of representatives from the Department of Justice and Equality and An Garda Síochána was established to address concerns raised in relation to firearms licensing issues.

As part of the review, the Working Group was tasked with examining key legislative and administrative issues which impact on the implementation of firearms legislation and to recommend changes. In examining these issues, the Working Group was to have particular regard to public safety.

On the publication of this Report, my colleague Frances Fitzgerald TD, Minister for Justice and Equality, expressly acknowledged that the great majority of firearms do not give rise to concern, but stated that questions do arise in relation to the categories of firearms which should be licensed.

I have been advised by Minister Fitzgerald that no changes to firearms licensing will take place before consultation with interested parties, including groups representing gun users.

In this regard, the Department of Justice and Equality has set up a dedicated email address firearms_inbox@justice.ie to submit views on the Report of the Working Group. The closing date for submissions is 15th December 2014 and further details are available on the Department of Justice website at http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/PB14000319.

The establishment of this consultation process follows on from commitments made by the Minister for Justice and Equality, to give individuals and representative groups an opportunity to contribute to the future direction of legislation in this area.

I want to thank you again for taking the time to contact me.

I hope this information is of use to you.

Kind regards,

Noel Coonan T.D.
Tipperary Fine Gael

Constituency Office:
Bank Street
Templemore
Tel: 0504 32544
Mobile: 086 2427733
Fax: 0504 56796

Dail Eireann
01 6183842
Email: noel.coonan@oir.ie

Sparks · 18-11-2014 8:12pm

Grizzly 45 wrote: »

Ok after shooting the messanger and the shredding the report....Your solution is ......?

Was I unclear?

Sparks wrote: »

We all as individuals start yelling at our TDs the way we did over the licence fee hike while all the NGBs (starting with the most important, the IFA) start talking to the Minister.

Sparks wrote: »

Large numbers showing up everywhere when an election was in the offing is about the only thing that ever managed to do this. Every time we wait for all the NGBs to do the legwork, things go wrong.

Sparks wrote: »

And do not wait for your NGB to do the job. They can't. Even the largest NGB hasn't got more then twenty or so people working directly for it; the only reason the protest against licence fees worked was that thousands of us were in direct grass-roots contact with our local TDs, Councillors and yelling at the Minister's office. Boards is grand for coordinating that, but nobody is going to do the job for you, you have to be the one to go talk to them. And waiting on things like NGB-scripted form letters and the like is a bad mistake; form letters get counted alright, but then they're filed in the shredder.

Sparks wrote: »

No NGB is going to do this for you, I don't care who they are or how much they preen from a pulpit, no NGB on its own has ever effected the kind of change we now require.

The only thing that has ever - in the entire history of our sport - been able to turn around legislation before it hits, after it has been announced like this, is massive groundroots contact with TDs and local politicians. People showing up at clinics to complain and threaten to rescind their vote and to campaign for others to do the same, is the only thing that has ever been noticed by the Minister sufficiently to abandon announced plans (and even that only worked because of the proximity of an election - but it got McDowell to abandon his licence fee hike plans). Seriously, if you think one single act by one single body can stop this, please stop thinking that now.

If you want this not to happen, you, personally will have to get in touch with your local politicians.
...
You want this not to happen? Pick up the phone to your local TD. Email him. Put pen to paper. Walk down to his or her local clinic and complain in person. That's the only way this is going to get done.

Sparks wrote: »

if you want this not to happen, we have to each, individually, personally, contact our TDs. Not leave it to NGBs, not look for form letters, not complain and do nothing, but actually send an email, a text, a tweet, a facebook post, a written letter, a phone call, or best of all go to their clinics and talk to them face to face.

No, don't think I was.

1] Yammer on about an organisation that is gone and about as likely to be reconstructed for this as us finding a unicorn on O Connell st tomrrow.

And do you know what it's so unlikely?
It's not because of the DoJ. The AGS can't block it. The other NGBs were perfectly happy to go back into it. Who blocked it?

2] Engage in continous bitch fests on how bad Des Crofton and others are and have been in the past and that they are all wrong and you are 100% right??

I guess this august is technically the past.

FFS!! No one is intrested now in how the damn ship sank just right now in this lifeboat!

To use your analogy, I'd rather not get in the lifeboat that has the bloody great big hole in the hull and I'd like to know the guy at the tiller knows what an iceberg looks like.
Call me picky if you want, but there's more than one lifeboat so don't tell me there's no choice here.

Also, Grizz, you know how you just went to court for your pistol licence recently?
You still have a pistol. After a sitting Minister said in the press on the front page that he was going to ban all handguns. That's not the AGS asking for the Minister to consider a legislative change after consultation and at arms length; that's the decision made and announced.

Yet somehow, you can still - even with difficulty - own a pistol.

Amongst other things, there are two things that implies:
1) We've been in worse places before;
2) In those worse places, something managed to take the announced decision of a sitting Minister and deflect it enough that something was saved instead of a complete ban coming in.

That thing wasn't a court case, it wasn't a petition and it wasn't grassroots support on that occasion as there wasn't time. It was that we were on the inside, not the outside.

That is the only long-term solution with any teeth.

You can dismiss it all you want - but we still have pistols.

I'm actually not surprised that the DOJ put that comment down on paper

Pro tip. Get the minutes before you say it's on paper. Then release it. Otherwise, it's he-said-she-said, literally, and we're nowhere.

But right now,I think people want to deal with the future problems and solutions,not with the past and woulda,shoulda,coulda rheortic.

That's.
The.
Whole.
Point.

The idea is to fix the problem now, not lose. And what's been suggested just loses. If we'd never tried any of these ideas before, I'd say let's try them - but that's what I did say the first time I saw us try them and they failed, and they kept failing because the system is set up so they can be readily dismissed. Seriously, how many times do we have to lose the same way before we try something we've seen work before?

Wadi14 · 18-11-2014 8:51pm

Guys as someone who has just got back into shooting after a long long break and not knowing the recent politics of it, I have learned very quickly this week, I'd say 99% of the people coming into Boards to read this thread at the minute are coming into see what the opposing factions are saying to slag each other off today, and guys I have to say your all not disappointing them.

Are we not all shooters with out sport under threat, everyone take a couple of minutes out and think about that.

yubabill1 · 18-11-2014 9:36pm

Wadi14 wrote: »

Guys as someone who has just got back into shooting after a long long break and not knowing the recent politics of it, I have learned very quickly this week, I'd say 99% of the people coming into Boards to read this thread at the minute are coming into see what the opposing factions are saying to slag each other off today, and guys I have to say your all not disappointing them.

Are we not all shooters with out sport under threat, everyone take a couple of minutes out and think about that.

After last night's meeting in HH, I am going to say as an educated man, a shooter and a scientist who has just published an electrochemistry patent last week, that Des Crofton is a very difficult man to get on with.

nastros · 18-11-2014 10:00pm

yubabill1 wrote: »

After last night's meeting in HH, I am going to say as an educated man, a shooter and a scientist who has just published an electrochemistry patent last week, that Des Crofton is a very difficult man to get on with.

It does seem like he is probably not the best person to be rallying in behind and from what I have heard of his previous actions he is a big reason lots of groups are not in support.

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