Gardai proposals to ban firearms

yubabill1

BoatMad wrote: »

Please stop this "massive license " nonsense. Its really just a drag them into court process by another name. All that will happen is another amendment.

You just can't win this process by trying to "push it"

Man up, you're in a fight.

BoatMad

Sparks wrote: »

Um.
Actually, they can. Ever since the 2006 Act, the Super's persona designata status has been gone, even though a lot of us didn't notice at the time and that report doesn't seem to recognise it either. But nevertheless, under Section 15(4) of the Act:


That means, if the Judge says grant the licence, the Super must grant the licence. It's one of the very, very few "must"s that the law points at the AGS.

I stand corrected, I was aware that in several decisions, a review was required but the judge stated he couldn't license the firearm.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

Sounds interesting. We have to make a fair bit of noise first, though - but definitely a plan.

Hence my rather strong suggestions above that if you want this not to happen, we have to each, individually, personally, contact our TDs. Not leave it to NGBs, not look for form letters, not complain and do nothing, but actually send an email, a text, a tweet, a facebook post, a written letter, a phone call, or best of all go to their clinics and talk to them face to face.

That's the motive to put this away quietly in a box. And given the length of life this government probably has left, that's about all we really need. Get it on a table in a room we're in with the AGS and DoJ and this doesn't happen. Don't do that and... well, I always wanted to shoot ISSF fullbore .32 pistol. I'd like not to have to go to Switzerland to do it, y'know?

Sparks

BoatMad wrote: »

I stand corrected, I was aware that in several decisions, a review was required but the judge stated he couldn't license the firearm.

In the High Court that's true. In the District Court, oddly, it's not.
But to be honest, if a DC judge didn't know that, I would be utterly unshocked. The Firearms Act is a complete and total mess when you get past the bones of the thing, because of all the layering of Acts, EU directives and SIs that make it up.

Sparks

yubabill1 wrote: »

Man up, you're in a fight.

Yeah, but we won't win it that way. It's not a horrid idea, it's actually out of the Ghandi playbook, it just had the knees slashed by 15A in the '06 act is all.

BoatMad

yubabill1 wrote: »

Man up, you're in a fight.

to misquote raiders of the lost ark, don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

A fight suggests we have something to overcome the other side, The fact is were not at a fight , we're not even in the arena, Whatever fight is going on, were not there,

Step one, locate arena

Step two, ask to be able to fight

Step three, don suitable gear

Step four, if you can't win, what are you doing there in the first place.

You see we're not in a fight, we' re in a negotiation, and in a negotiation, you need a game plan, a fall back plan and most importantly "friends". ( or at the very least people on the other side who see advantage in supporting you )

This is the mistake this community has made, thinking this is a "fight". there is no fight. wise up

LB6

Information evening for affiliated clubs and their members in the Clubhouse, Harbour House Sports Club, Co. Kildare at 7PM the evening of Monday November 17th.
There, we will explain what the Sports Coalition is, why it is different from previous attempts at unity, why it is so important and what it is doing on behalf of all license holders.
We will also outline what it is that we want you and your members to do to aid the Coalition in its efforts.

Please make all effort to attend

Now there's your arena. Stop being so negative.

Sparks

LB6 wrote: »

Now there's your arena. Stop being so negative.

That's not the arena. That's a private club. Go, talk, by all means, but if you think that in the government's mind that it's any different from boards.ie, you're fooling yourself. They just see it as another private group of people, nothing more.

BoatMad

Now there's your arena. Stop being so negative.

Id love to have positives to look at from the past to guide us here???

LB6

It's a private club yes, the biggest in the country, centrally located and with the capacity to hold a meeting of like minded people who are interested in making this thing go forwards, not digging their heels in and saying "awww that won't work"!

Whats with all the negativity - it's really getting on my wick!


Go and see what you can learn - everyone here seems to think they know it all!

Sparks

BoatMad wrote: »

Id love to have positives to look at from the past to guide us here???

2006/7 - the Minister wanted to up licence fees enormously. Largescale grassroots activism just before an election stopped the plan. And that was McDowell for feck's sakes, rowing back on something that was going to increase government revenue. That's a rather large U-turn.

2009 - the Minister announces on the front page of every newspaper out there that he's going to ban handguns. Not some, not a subset, just everything. The FCP blunts the worst of it even though he went to the press first. We still took it in the neck, but we walked away with our head still attached, mostly.

These kind of disasters can be averted or ameliorated, even if we don't have legal vetos or more votes than anyone else; but only when we do things a certain way.

Sparks

LB6 wrote: »

It's a private club yes, the biggest in the country

Really? Has the IFA signed up then?

Whats with all the negativity - it's really getting on my wick!

Because I find it a bit galling that the AGS were only able to do this because the FCP wasn't there, and the people you're recommending are the ones who burned the FCP in the first place.

Look, go. Hear them out. Getting information out there is always good and I've no argument with that at all. But if people start talking about courts or spending lots of money or everyone joining under one Great Leader, have a pinch of salt to hand. That route's been tried. We go down there again and in ten years time - and this is shooting, we will all be here in ten years - we'll be back here again, with less and looking at losing more.

And if you don't believe me, ask yourself what year this is and when did they release the heads of the 2004 Criminal Justice Bill that went on to be the greatest kick in the fork our sports ever got.






ps. When I say "private club" I don't mean HH, I mean the sports coalition thingy.

LB6

Your manner of text is very condescending Sparks. "sports coalition "THINGY".

I can't do anymore. Not every agrees with you. I'm just putting it out there for the other 99% who are open to hearing information.

.243

Sparks wrote: »

but only when we do things a certain way.

What other way is there,
Sitting here whinging and waiting for the sky to fall?????,
people (it doesn't matter who's affiliated with who,we all have a common dominator we all squeeze a trigger)are for once getting of their rear ends and meeting to try and be better informed in what we can do,others are emailing letting their political representatives know what's happening to their voters and being invited to recieve the correct information and putting it out there that another piece of their sport of shooting is being tore away,
Even if it all goes to pot at least we all gave it everything to save it

BoatMad

Sparks wrote: »

2006/7 - the Minister wanted to up licence fees enormously. Largescale grassroots activism just before an election stopped the plan. And that was McDowell for feck's sakes, rowing back on something that was going to increase government revenue. That's a rather large U-turn.

2009 - the Minister announces on the front page of every newspaper out there that he's going to ban handguns. Not some, not a subset, just everything. The FCP blunts the worst of it even though he went to the press first. We still took it in the neck, but we walked away with our head still attached, mostly.

These kind of disasters can be averted or ameliorated, even if we don't have legal vetos or more votes than anyone else; but only when we do things a certain way.

The first had the benefit of involving farmers and the IFA, and it was an election

The second showed the advantage of the FCP. The FCP is where now?

Im all for trying sparks I really am, but the current leadership of our sport ( in what there is), leaves me with that sinking feeling that this is all pre-destined.

sheesh

Hi all not a gun owner here but I have read 5 pages of the thread and skimmed through the rest. here are some suggestions

contacting the TD's is great but it would be,better to call into their clinics and explain to the TD's what exactly is wrong with the report. be nice to them.

these guns can be used for pest control try and get the farmers involved.

these guns are used by tourists Find people who run shooting holidays in Ireland get them give out to TD's as reducing the number of types of guns that can be brought into the country restricts the number of tourists that will come.

And obviously gun sellers.

Remember FG and Labour will need every vote they can get come the next election.

Kryten

Bulk licence applications are a terrible idea. It will only succeed in holding up substitutions and new applications by other shooters.
From reading the proposed legislation, time is not on our side. They are out to screw us. FCP is not an option any more. No meaningful consultation with the shooters will result anyway. The PTB hold all the cards, so we have no choice but to try to unite and fight what's coming. Sparks, you seem to shoot down everyone's suggestions, but apart from FCP you have no alternative solutions. We are not throwing any discipline under the bus, so to speak, for the greater good. There is no good. I am going to the information session in Harbour house. Get a plan of action together. Basically to do something.

Wadi14

I didn't realise there was so much politics in shooting, since reading this thread I have learned sooo much, from the people who have participated and from those who haven't, and I have to say it doesn't look good

BoatMad

sheesh wrote: »

Hi all not a gun owner here but I have read 5 pages of the thread and skimmed through the rest. here are some suggestions

contacting the TD's is great but it would be,better to call into their clinics and explain to the TD's what exactly is wrong with the report. be nice to them.

these guns can be used for pest control try and get the farmers involved.

these guns are used by tourists Find people who run shooting holidays in Ireland get them give out to TD's as reducing the number of types of guns that can be brought into the country restricts the number of tourists that will come.

And obviously gun sellers.

Remember FG and Labour will need every vote they can get come the next election.

Unfortunately, my friend , you illustrate the issues we have

This current problem is about handguns, thats the kernel, they have a single use in this state, thats is target shooting. The numbers involved are small compared to holders of ordinary shotguns and bolt action rifles.

Im not aware that Ireland allows any tourist handguns to be brought it.

SO the arguments have to be carefully presented. The farmers can be easily bought off by be told that no provisions affect them etc. Then the TDs just sigh and move on.

Its a tricky debate. Unless all the sports groups right from a-z are directly behind this campaign , it will be an uphill battle.

Its winnable, but it may not be winnable with the current representation

BoatMad

Kryten wrote: »

Bulk licence applications are a terrible idea. It will only succeed in holding up substitutions and new applications by other shooters.
From reading the proposed legislation, time is not on our side. They are out to screw us. FCP is not an option any more. No meaningful consultation with the shooters will result anyway. The PTB hold all the cards, so we have no choice but to try to unite and fight what's coming. Sparks, you seem to shoot down everyone's suggestions, but apart from FCP you have no alternative solutions. We are not throwing any discipline under the bus, so to speak, for the greater good. There is no good. I am going to the information session in Harbour house. Get a plan of action together. Basically to do something.

\

Good post, but I do suspect we have more time on our hands then we think. I suspect any legislation will have a low priority and may not even see dail time before the election.

The key issue here is to stall things. Thats our greatest asset, time to election, it may even be sooner then we think.

Yes lets act , lets act together, but lets stop antagonising the other side for no real purpose.

sheesh

BoatMad wrote: »

Unfortunately, my friend , you illustrate the issues we have

This current problem is about handguns, thats the kernel, they have a single use in this state, thats is target shooting. The numbers involved are small compared to holders of ordinary shotguns and bolt action rifles.

Im not aware that Ireland allows any tourist handguns to be brought it.

SO the arguments have to be carefully presented. The farmers can be easily bought off by be told that no provisions affect them etc. Then the TDs just sigh and move on.

Its a tricky debate. Unless all the sports groups right from a-z are directly behind this campaign , it will be an uphill battle.

Its winnable, but it may not be winnable with the current representation

Ah feck! I still think it is stupid I bet you most of the crimes committed using handguns in the state probably either illegally held hand guns or fakes but if you get rid of legally held ones somebody feels they are doing something.

Deaf git

It is precisely this type of public wrangling that does us no good whatever.

But I am sick & tired of the BS attached to licencing even a basic .22 rifle. When I saw the first commissioners guidelines I thought ordinary Gardai would abide by them, no such bloody luck. Same old lazy, disrespectful crap at the front counter. Same old arbitrary bullshot supers making arbitrary decisions. It was the very same 30 years ago. And there are enough threads here to show my experience is not isolated.
My mail toT Ds basically states-
What I want is a set of rules that protect me as a gun owner and me as a citizen. I want public servants that follow rules and don't chuck fca1 forms in the bin. I want public servants to not waste money on pointless cases. I want an independant appeals process in line with the concepts of natural justice. I want decisions on firearms policy made on good evidence, not hearsay or ignorance. I'm law abiding. I pay taxes and want fair play. I'm not a criminal or a nut. Please tell the Minister to be fair and not simply take as read the advice of a few senior officials.
Now what is wrong with stating this publicly?
Someone is about to say the public will want to ban everything....Well, wake up and smell the coffee, we are heading in that direction as it stands and the public don't give a rats ass about olympic shooting events.

meathstevie

It's a bit of a sideline remark but I find it rather amazing that AGS as an organisation appears able to direct the Minister rather than the other way around.

Not intending to be disrespectful towards the Gardai, it's a hard enough life at the best of times for the boots on the ground, but isn't a police force's job to shut up and carry out when it comes to law and law making.

It's beyond discussion that firearms policy in general is an issue where AGS should have an input but law making is most definitely the prerogative of elected representatives and this situation definitely looks like senior Gardai dictating the Minister.

BoatMad

meathstevie wrote: »

It's a bit of a sideline remark but I find it rather amazing that AGS as an organisation appears able to direct the Minister rather than the other way around.

Not intending to be disrespectful towards the Gardai, it's a hard enough life at the best of times for the boots on the ground, but isn't a police force's job to shut up and carry out when it comes to law and law making.

It's beyond discussion that firearms policy in general is an issue where AGS should have an input but law making is most definitely the prerogative of elected representatives and this situation definitely looks like senior Gardai dictating the Minister.

All public servants , whether they are HSE health officials, transport officials , or the gardai have huge involvement in legislation, civil servants or ministers rarely think this stuff up on their own. The gardai have already had a huge involvement in suggesting legislation, particulary in criminal matters or areas within their remit.

BoatMad

Deaf git wrote: »

It is precisely this type of public wrangling that does us no good whatever.

But I am sick & tired of the BS attached to licencing even a basic .22 rifle. When I saw the first commissioners guidelines I thought ordinary Gardai would abide by them, no such bloody luck. Same old lazy, disrespectful crap at the front counter. Same old arbitrary bullshot supers making arbitrary decisions. It was the very same 30 years ago. And there are enough threads here to show my experience is not isolated.
My mail toT Ds basically states-
What I want is a set of rules that protect me as a gun owner and me as a citizen. I want public servants that follow rules and don't chuck fca1 forms in the bin. I want public servants to not waste money on pointless cases. I want an independant appeals process in line with the concepts of natural justice. I want decisions on firearms policy made on good evidence, not hearsay or ignorance. I'm law abiding. I pay taxes and want fair play. I'm not a criminal or a nut. Please tell the Minister to be fair and not simply take as read the advice of a few senior officials.
Now what is wrong with stating this publicly?
Someone is about to say the public will want to ban everything....Well, wake up and smell the coffee, we are heading in that direction as it stands and the public don't give a rats ass about olympic shooting events.

That's not a bad letter, you are direct , but your not calling anyone " discredited or a liar "

Grizzly 45

BoatMad wrote: »

Unfortunately, my friend , you illustrate the issues we have

This current problem is about handguns, thats the kernel, they have a single use in this state, thats is target shooting. The numbers involved are small compared to holders of ordinary shotguns and bolt action rifles.

not aware that Ireland allows any tourist handguns to be brought it.

Thats because we arent allowed or have been able to orgaanise international matches...Ohsorry,the evil IPSC was trying to organise one,but because it was combat shooting ,that honour and about 300k went to Serbia instead.

SO the arguments have to be carefully presented. The farmers can be easily bought off by be told that no provisions affect them etc. Then the TDs just sigh and move on.

Actually,this will affect them,if anyone has the smarts to point out that the most stolen firearms in the country are farmers shotguns that are still carelessly stored by the back door or left in the car.I dont see why they should be exempt from some basic security with their just as dangerous DBBL shotgun as my "deadlier" three shot semi auto.

meathstevie

BoatMad wrote: »

All public servants , whether they are HSE health officials, transport officials , or the gardai have huge involvement in legislation, civil servants or ministers rarely think this stuff up on their own. The gardai have already had a huge involvement in suggesting legislation, particulary in criminal matters or areas within their remit.

I'm quite familiar with how the world works but I'm still quite amazed at the tone of the document.

.243

sheesh wrote: »

Ah feck! I still think it is stupid I bet you most of the crimes committed using handguns in the state probably either illegally held hand guns or fakes but if you get rid of legally held ones somebody feels they are doing something.

You only have to look at dunblane,yes they were leaglly held, the knee jerking happened as the then government had to be seen to tackle "gun crime",the handgun ban came in literally overnight,
"Gun crime" went UP 40% two years after

yubabill1

Kryten wrote: »

Bulk licence applications are a terrible idea. It will only succeed in holding up substitutions and new applications by other shooters.
The PTB hold all the cards, so we have no choice but to try to unite and fight what's coming. Sparks, you seem to shoot down everyone's suggestions, but apart from FCP you have no alternative solutions. We are not throwing any discipline under the bus, so to speak, for the greater good. There is no good. I am going to the information session in Harbour house. Get a plan of action together. Basically to do something.

Mass applications is something to consider if/when things escalate - you won't be too worried about subs if this becomes the case, so what - a little inconvenience - shooters will stick together (remember the rod licence thing in 1986? The minister, Brendan Daly had to resign when fishermen refused to pay).

And I think Sparks has been making constructive criticism here - I will wander in to harbour house (where is there a harbour near you, Tommy - anywhere near the airport?) tonight, I'm expecting a fair bit of bluster to emerge at some stage but I might be pleasantly surprised.

yubabill1

BoatMad wrote: »

to misquote raiders of the lost ark, don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

A fight suggests we have something to overcome the other side, The fact is were not at a fight , we're not even in the arena, Whatever fight is going on, were not there,

Step one, locate arena

Step two, ask to be able to fight

Step three, don suitable gear

Step four, if you can't win, what are you doing there in the first place.


This is the mistake this community has made, thinking this is a "fight". there is no fight. wise up

Me and you should go out for a pint some night in my home town.

P.S. bring your armoured breastplate.