Sinn Féin the most popular party in latest poll (mod warnings in OP)

alastair

maccored wrote: »

so the parties in the north can dictate how much cash they need from westminster .... ?

Thats not really true now, is it Alastair ... tut tut..

It is actually. The block grant from Westminster is not the only source of revenue for the NI Executive - they also have the Regional Rates, and borrowing under the Reinvestment and Reform Initiative. They still had to go back, cap in hand to Westminster because they couldn't balance their budget. Partially, of course, because they again, postponed applying water charges, for their water infrastructure, which is, if anything, in worse shape than our own.

maccored wrote: »

I dont really even need to answer this as all anyone has to do is read your posts in this and other threads.

What, you're denying that SF are a govt partner in this financial mismanagement?

alastair

maccored wrote: »

our government CHOSE to put themselves under the power of the troika. that simple and repeatedly overlooked fact argues against any similarity.

That may be a simple statement, but it's far from factual.

Where did you imagine they were going if not the troika?

alastair

dave ireland wrote: »

When the first family walks into that court room for nun payment of water bill, in front of the world media I think Ireland will go deeper in the direction of SF and I guess there will be more independent guys by then as well.

The 'world's media' would be quite bemused at the notion of someone refusing to pay their water charge bill being something noteworthy, let alone newsworthy.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

dave ireland

alastair wrote: »

The 'world's media' would be quite bemused at the notion of someone refusing to pay their water charge bill being something noteworthy, let alone newsworthy.

I'm not so sure , if the Irish government gets away with charging for water twice what's to stop main land Europe from trying it. I don't think the French would be happy been told there is a water tax now, even though you have already been paying for it privately for years...

mikom

alastair wrote: »

The 'world's media' would be quite bemused at the notion of someone refusing to pay their water charge bill being something noteworthy, let alone newsworthy.

Screw the "media".
Where will they be when the bills come in?

dave ireland

Roll on 2016, I can now see light at the end of the tunnel and its either a new style of politics or a freight train.... @ or both ~?

maccored

regardless of your very inaccurate comparisons and idea of choosing, the two things are still completely different. dont let that put you off though. you keep on keeping on with the inaccurate comparisons.

twowheelsgood wrote: »

Right. And SF CHOOSE to share power with the other parties in NI. The could have CHOSEN to keep their war going, drive out the British and re-establish the Irish republic.

It would of course have been a fairly preposterous plan with close to zero chance of ending well. Pretty much as preposterous as us trying to re-build our economy without the Troika.

So in reality, no choice. And thus no substantial difference.

K-9

Yarf Yarf wrote: »

As sorry as I feel for Maria Cahill, the attempts to politicize her case and use her as a political pawn were painfully transparent and I'm glad it is seemingly backfiring. I think most people are just sick of hearing the same ****e about cases that happened years and years ago and, frankly, don't really have any bearing on the day to day lives of people in the Republic today. I feel for Maria Cahill, but this whole circus has been a feeble attempt at diverting attention away from relevant issues of the here and now and it should be exposed for what it is.

Isn't calling her a political pawn not playing politics with her?

twowheelsgood

maccored wrote: »

regardless of your very inaccurate comparisons and idea of choosing, the two things are still completely different. dont let that put you off though. you keep on keeping on with the inaccurate comparisons.

I find when people say that two things are "completely different" what they mean is that they want them to be completely different but they cannot make the argument.

The scenarios certainly are different but what they both have in common, a lack of choice. Republicans had no real choice other than GFA 15 years ago and the Irish state had no real choice but to seek assistance from the Troika 5 years ago.

There are at least some dissidents who would dispute the former. Can you find a single credible voice who suggested there was an alternative to the Troika?

michael999999

mikom wrote: »

Screw the "media".
Where will they be when the bills come in?

When Fine Gael sell Irish Water to tjere favourite backer Denis o Brien, the 'media' will be the one sending the bills!

K-9

alastair wrote: »

The NI executive is a coalition government.

It clearly isn't a normal coalition like here or Tory/LibDem in the UK, Ministers are picked by the D'Hondt system and parties are basically forced to coalesce.

You can't have a Govt. in the North without the 2 biggest parties, completely different from here or the UK where it would be a Tory/Labour coalition!

Pocoyo

Was speaking to a long time FF member and he said that he knew reliably that there are major negotiations going for the formation of the next govt ongoing to facilitate a FF and FG coalition after next election to prevent SF from getting into power. The end of civil war politics may finally be at an end and the 2 cheeks of the one arse are going to reunite to **** on us collectively. The political system in this country is a joke and there is a new PD light starting up too in the Irish Democratic Party.
Between Siptu and other unions being in tow to the establishment and Deadly Dinny being in charge of the media outlets this country is nothing more than a tinpot, banana republic that protects its wealthy elite and constantly grinds and attempts to crush the ordinary people.
After yesterday the Irish people have spoken and marched. We can't and won't take anymore from these shysters and confidence tricksters. We must all unite and say " No more austerity, no more bailouts, no more stealth taxes and charges, no more." Can't pay and won't pay.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

What, you're denying that SF are a govt partner in this financial mismanagement?

You sound like that Hannity guy shouting "Terrorist - YES or NO!". The NI power sharing executive is nothing like a FG/LB voluntary coalition and you know it, we all know it, so you can stop now.

Dan_Solo

Pocoyo wrote: »

Was speaking to a long time FF member and he said that he knew reliably that there are major negotiations going for the formation of the next govt ongoing to facilitate a FF and FG coalition after next election to prevent SF from getting into power.

Just goes to show what the establishment/golden circle parties are all about: power and nothing but power. Serving the people has f**k all to do with their mindset.

lee_baby_simms

Pocoyo wrote: »

the 2 cheeks of the one arse are going to reunite to **** on us collectively.

Beautifully put.

Good loser

Pocoyo wrote: »

Was speaking to a long time FF member and he said that he knew reliably that there are major negotiations going for the formation of the next govt ongoing to facilitate a FF and FG coalition after next election to prevent SF from getting into power. The end of civil war politics may finally be at an end and the 2 cheeks of the one arse are going to reunite to **** on us collectively. The political system in this country is a joke and there is a new PD light starting up too in the Irish Democratic Party.
Between Siptu and other unions being in tow to the establishment and Deadly Dinny being in charge of the media outlets this country is nothing more than a tinpot, banana republic that protects its wealthy elite and constantly grinds and attempts to crush the ordinary people.
After yesterday the Irish people have spoken and marched. We can't and won't take anymore from these shysters and confidence tricksters. We must all unite and say " No more austerity, no more bailouts, no more stealth taxes and charges, no more." Can't pay and won't pay.

Logically then you should look for return of FF - everything was free in their day.

Of all the options I think the most amusing would be FF and SF.

The somersaults and verbal gymnastics then would be something to behold.

Scofflaw

twowheelsgood wrote: »

I find when people say that two things are "completely different" what they mean is that they want them to be completely different but they cannot make the argument.

The scenarios certainly are different but what they both have in common, a lack of choice. Republicans had no real choice other than GFA 15 years ago and the Irish state had no real choice but to seek assistance from the Troika 5 years ago.

There are at least some dissidents who would dispute the former. Can you find a single credible voice who suggested there was an alternative to the Troika?

I don't know about credible, but you can certainly find diehard FF supporters who would argue it. We didn't need the troika, the government were fully funded for 6 months, etc.

cordially,
Scofflaw

alastair

dave ireland wrote: »

I'm not so sure , if the Irish government gets away with charging for water twice what's to stop main land Europe from trying it. I don't think the French would be happy been told there is a water tax now, even though you have already been paying for it privately for years...

Nobody is paying twice. So that puts an end to that grand notion.

alastair

K-9 wrote: »

It clearly isn't a normal coalition like here or Tory/LibDem in the UK, Ministers are picked by the D'Hondt system and parties are basically forced to coalesce.

You can't have a Govt. in the North without the 2 biggest parties, completely different from here or the UK where it would be a Tory/Labour coalition!

It's still a coalition government. And it still has to make collective decisions regarding finances/spending/economy. And you can still gauge their financial chops from how well things are going there. It's not so good.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

It's still a coalition government.

This is a farcical point which has been explained to you in detail repeatedly.
A power sharing executive is not a voluntary coalition. You may as well say my aunt is indeed my uncle as they're both relatives of mine!

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

This is a farcical point which has been explained to you in detail repeatedly.
A power sharing executive is not a voluntary coalition. You may as well say my aunt is indeed my uncle as they're both relatives of mine!

It's a mandatory coalition, it's not the same as our coalition, but that's not the point - they can still be judged on their financial governance record within that coalition. The farce is in trying to dismiss their poor record in that government, on the back of pretending it's a different thing altogether.

Crooked Jack

alastair wrote: »

The government in NI have control over aspects of the economy and spending, and it's not been pretty.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-29562432

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/ni-executive-set-to-bust-budget-over-282m-cuts-requirement-1.1949233

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/regional/executive-s-fiscal-dishonesty-coming-home-to-roost-agnew-1-6392227

First story there is about a DUP deal, the second two are about Tory cuts that Sinn Fein have been resisting for months. If anything, Sinn Fein's performance in the north only proves that they are a party true to their word.

Crooked Jack

alastair wrote: »

It's a mandatory coalition, it's not the same as our coalition, but that's not the point - they can still be judged on their financial governance record within that coalition. The farce is in trying to dismiss their poor record in that government, on the back of pretending it's a different thing altogether.

You clearly have little or no concept of how Stormont works. This was made particularly obvious when you tried to equate the block grant with local government rates.

You simply cannot judge SF's financial performance on the financial state of the north. Not only, as it has been pointed out to you numerous times, is it not a coalition government, but the DUP have an absolute veto on anything and everything and are happy to use it just to block anything SF support purely on that basis. It's not an ordinary government, it's not ordinary politics and attempts to draw comparisons on this issue is either you betraying your own ignorance or an attempt to muddy the waters of the debate for those who arent familiar with the system in the north.

twowheelsgood

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You simply cannot judge SF's financial performance on the financial state of the north. Not only, as it has been pointed out to you numerous times, is it not a coalition government, but the DUP have an absolute veto on anything and everything and are happy to use it just to block anything SF support purely on that basis.

The argument usually made to defend SF performance in the northern executive is that they are limited in what they can do as the purse strings are controlled from London. And in this they don't differ much from us with the Troika.

As to the nature of the arrangement up there, true is is not a normal coalition, it is more akin to a national government. And while the tribal nature of the make up brings its own problems the national nature of it means it does not have some of the problems of a more conventional coalition.

In particular, there is no pressure to favour populist measures or to buy elections - your party will be in power no matter what. Surely this makes it easier to do a good job?

Banjo String

twowheelsgood wrote: »

In particular, there is no pressure to favour populist measures or to buy elections - your party will be in power no matter what. Surely this makes it easier to do a good job?

How have you arrived at this conclusion

Dan_Solo

Banjo String wrote: »

How have you arrived at this conclusion

Maybe he thinks they will always be in government because they are so popular? :-)

alastair

Crooked Jack wrote: »

You clearly have little or no concept of how Stormont works. This was made particularly obvious when you tried to equate the block grant with local government rates.

You simply cannot judge SF's financial performance on the financial state of the north. Not only, as it has been pointed out to you numerous times, is it not a coalition government, but the DUP have an absolute veto on anything and everything and are happy to use it just to block anything SF support purely on that basis. It's not an ordinary government, it's not ordinary politics and attempts to draw comparisons on this issue is either you betraying your own ignorance or an attempt to muddy the waters of the debate for those who arent familiar with the system in the north.

I can see why you would rather not associate SF with quality of financial governance in NI, but it's rather disingenuous to pretend that the DUP are the only ones employing vetoes - SF are too. The end outcome? Speaks for itself. And I never equated the block grant with regional rates, I simply pointed out that the executive have revenue sources beyond Westminster, and have the capacity to make independent decisions in that regard.

But if you prefer straw man arguments, knock yourself out.

Dan_Solo

alastair wrote: »

I can see why you would rather not associate SF with quality of financial governance in NI, but it's rather disingenuous to pretend that the DUP are the only ones employing vetoes - SF are too. The end outcome? Speaks for itself. And I never equated the block grant with regional rates, I simply pointed out that the executive have revenue sources beyond Westminster, and have the capacity to make independent decisions in that regard.

But if you prefer straw man arguments, knock yourself out.

Get back to us with your powershare = voluntary coalition theory when all parties in The Dail have a veto alastair!
Makes you wonder why they bother when according to you these two completely different mechanisms of governance are exactly the same...

alastair

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Get back to us with your powershare = voluntary coalition theory when all parties in The Dail have a veto alastair!
Makes you wonder why they bother when according to you these two completely different mechanisms of governance are exactly the same...

I never said that the NI executive was a voluntary coalition, I said it was a coalition. Do try to pay attention. And even our model of coalition employs vetoes too - we just don't get to hear about them, unless they result in coalition breakup.