FAT, SICK & NEARLY DEAD

King Mob

MadDog76 wrote: »

But what about all those people (me included) who have tried this "secret trick" and it has worked for them in abundance ......... ???

How do you know that all of these people weren't just feeling the effects of a healthy diet and avoiding things that make their conditions flare up?

MadDog76 wrote: »

Also the movie (I assume you've watched it?) was meant first and foremost to be entertainment which it achieved for many people (also like me) regardless if you had ever Juiced before watching the movie (I hadn't) or if you decided to try Juicing after the movie (I did) or not ........... and like every movie some will find it interesting or entertaining or funny or informative ....... and some just won't like it.

I haven't seen the movie, but I think jh79's list of issues with it was very comprehensive. And since you aren't interested or able to address them, I don't see much point in watching the movie.

MadDog76

King Mob wrote: »

How do you know that all of these people weren't just feeling the effects of a healthy diet and avoiding things that make their conditions flare up?


I haven't seen the movie, but I think jh79's list of issues with it was very comprehensive. And since you aren't interested or able to address them, I don't see much point in watching the movie.

Because I am one of those people .........

You haven't actually watched the movie???
So you're basing your opinion of a movie that you haven't seen on somebody else's opinion ???
Well there's no point in me discussing the movie with you any further so ...... :rolleyes:

jh79

Is juicing not just a lazy persons way of getting their 5 a day?

If you can't be bothered chopping and peeling a few veg for your dinner then eventually once the novelty wears off cleaning the juicer , like preping and cooking veg, will become a chore too.

MadDog76

jh79 wrote: »

Is juicing not just a lazy persons way of getting their 5 a day?

If you can't be bothered chopping and peeling a few veg for your dinner then eventually once the novelty wears off cleaning the juicer , like preping and cooking veg, will become a chore too.

How long, in your opinion, will the novelty last ......... ???

jh79

King Mob wrote: »

How do you know that all of these people weren't just feeling the effects of a healthy diet and avoiding things that make their conditions flare up?


I haven't seen the movie, but I think jh79's list of issues with it was very comprehensive. And since you aren't interested or able to address them, I don't see much point in watching the movie.

Trust me don't waste your time, 2/3 of the film consists of interviews with obese Americans who all acknowledge it is their own fault but that they enjoy "bad" food and accept the consequences. Then we have three people with food related illnesses who through fasting avoid their triggers which obviously leads to the loss of symptoms.

King Mob

MadDog76 wrote: »

Because I am one of those people .........

So leaving aside the issue of why anyone should take the word of anyone on the internet...
How do you know then?

MadDog76 wrote: »

You haven't actually watched the movie???
So you're basing your opinion of a movie that you haven't seen on somebody else's opinion ???

Yup. Because his opinion is sound and no one has even attempted to refute his points.
You still haven't even addressed mine.

MadDog76 wrote: »

Well there's no point in me discussing the movie with you any further so ...... :rolleyes:

I didn't want to discuss the movie. I was just sharing an observation with someone else on this thread.
You've already made it clear that you also don't want to discuss the movie with anyone who doesn't agree with you.

MadDog76

King Mob wrote: »

So leaving aside the issue of why anyone should take the word of anyone on the internet...
How do you know then?

Because I've done it myself, I've "cured" (for lack of a better word) myself of a serious digestive ailment through Juicing ........

Yup. Because his opinion is sound and no one has even attempted to refute his points.
You still haven't even addressed mine.

You have no idea if his judgement is sound because you are "taking the word of somebody from the internet" instead of judging for yourself ........

I didn't want to discuss the movie. I was just sharing an observation with someone else on this thread.
You've already made it clear that you also don't want to discuss the movie with anyone who doesn't agree with you.

This thread is about the movie ......... I have discussed the movie, see my other posts

I don't want to discuss the movie with anyone who hasn't seen it ......... that's a one-sided discussion

King Mob

MadDog76 wrote: »

Because I've done it myself, I've "cured" (for lack of a better word) myself of a serious digestive ailment through Juicing ........

Ok, then you can explain how you know it was specifically the juicing and not any other factor.

MadDog76 wrote: »

You have no idea if his judgement is sound because you are "taking the word of somebody from the internet" instead of judging for yourself .

Again, no one has refuted his points.
Can you show how his reasoning is not sound or that he is misrepresenting the film?
If not, then I'm going to stick to my conclusion, thanks.

MadDog76

King Mob wrote: »

Ok, then you can explain how you know it was specifically the juicing and not any other factor.

Because the medication I was on daily (which I no longer take) for years didn't cure my problem.........
Removing the "triggers" (as they are called) didn't cure me .............
Exercise didn't cure me .........
A healthy well-balanced diet didn't cure me .........
Alternative medicine didn't cure me ..........

And, although all of these life-style changes had their positives in other aspects of my life, the only thing that actually "cured" my long-term ailment was Juicing .............

Again, no one has refuted his points.
Can you show how his reasoning is not sound or that he is misrepresenting the film?
If not, then I'm going to stick to my conclusion, thanks.

You have no idea if his "points" are even valid without watching the movie
But you are of course welcome to stick to your (his?) "conclusion" about the movie ........... they do say Ignorance is Bliss

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Why go to the extreme of fasting when the above can be achieved with a healthy balanced diet?

Again what is the CYNICAL PLOY ... You say there is one then show it. What you wrote above is just your opinion

I did even posted all the examples ... must be easy enough for you to point out that devious cynical ploy at work here

weisses

King Mob wrote: »

I haven't seen the movie, but I think jh79's list of issues with it was very comprehensive. And since you aren't interested or able to address them, I don't see much point in watching the movie.

God forbid you form your own informed opinion on the matter !!!!

You are trying to discuss the flaws of something with someone based on the views of someone who thinks its a cynical ploy without being able to point the cynical bit ... well done (that was cynical by the way)

ahh well you answered this in the below quote already

King Mob wrote: »

So leaving aside the issue of why anyone should take the word of anyone on the internet...

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Again what is the CYNICAL PLOY ... You say there is one then show it. What you wrote above is just your opinion

I did even posted all the examples ... must be easy enough for you to point out that devious cynical ploy at work here

Check my post again , I asked a question, was rebooting part of a cynical ploy to give the impression that juicing had benefits .

The fasting removes triggers which has the obvious effect of stopping flare ups , throwing juicing into the mix gives the impression it had a part to play.

The film fails to show any benefits to juicing over that of a normal diet. I pointed out the flaws i saw with the film and no one has countered them or even attempted to.

jh79

jh79 wrote: »

Leaving aside what constitutes a "cure" lets look at what info the film gives us and what conclusions can be drawn;

1) He was obese, liked an hedonistic lifestyle and had a stressful job. He was on various medications including those to treat UC.

The causes of UC are generally unknown but triggers for flare ups of the illness are known , these include stress , alcohol and poor diet. His lifestyle meant he continually encountered these triggers.

The drugs he was taking either decreased swelling of the hives or were anti-histamines. We are never told of the effect of the drugs on the frequency and severity of his hives compared to prior to his treatment. So no conclusions can be drawn on their effectiveness in his case.

2) He fasted, juiced, had a holiday and took meds for 60 days leading to no flare ups.

We know by fasting and taking a holiday he removed a number of possible triggers ie alcohol, stress and diet based allergies / triggers. We know that the meds he was taking reduce either swelling or histamine levels and given the decrease in triggers would be more effective. We have no evidence that "juicing" had any effect here*.

3) He continued juicing and combined this with a healthy diet.

Again the healthy diet avoids known triggers negating the need for meds. The effects of juicing on his illness (which he still suffers from) remain unknown.

*Most nutrition based miracle cure CT's I've come across claim a conveniently vague mechanism of action whereby the nutrients improve the immune system (don't think it would work here anyways), in this case the triggers are removed meaning even if this were true we wouldn't be able to tell.

To make claims regarding the effectiveness of juicing over that of meds or just in general in treating UC he would need to revert to his old diet and then introduce juicing in place of his meds.

Weisses ; is this a fair summary of the movie?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Check my post again , I asked a question, was rebooting part of a cynical ploy to give the impression that juicing had benefits .

The fasting removes triggers which has the obvious effect of stopping flare ups , throwing juicing into the mix gives the impression it had a part to play.

The film fails to show any benefits to juicing over that of a normal diet. I pointed out the flaws i saw with the film and no one has countered them or even attempted to.

Okay ... Ill rephrase .... Do you think its a cynical ploy ???

If No why ask it ?

If yes my previous question stands

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Okay ... Ill rephrase .... Do you think its a cynical ploy ???

If No why ask it ?

If yes my previous question stands

I'll answer if you return the favour on the summary i posted?

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

I'll answer if you return the favour on the summary i posted?

I thin I asked you first about the cynical ploy part ... 1 thing at the time

MadDog76

There's nothing at all cynical about Joe Cross or Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead ........... at worst the movie is highly entertaining

weisses

If someone wants a to talk about cynical ploys

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p40.pdf

Get outraged by this

jh79

weisses wrote: »

I thin I asked you first about the cynical ploy part ... 1 thing at the time

Ok so,

I'm really conflicted on this, he comes across as genuine in the movie but you should never judge a book by its cover as they say.

He is a driven and successful man yet his film fails to show any benefit to juicing compared to a normal diet or just avoiding food allergens .

Even though he is not a scientist i find it hard to believe he could design his experiment so poorly unless of course he realised a well designed experiment would dilute the impact of his juicing message.

The reboot part sounds like detoxing which is a myth. There is no justification that i can see for the fasting except of course when combined with juicing it gives the impression that juicing was part of a miraculous "cure" .

So at the moment I think the movie is a cynical infomercial for Breville and his website and its associated businesses .

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

So at the moment I think the movie is a cynical infomercial for Breville and his website and its associated businesses .

Based on ??? is there solid information out there in line with your view ?

Again you fail to point out the "cynical ploy"

Fasting could be beneficial so i don't understand your issue regarding all kinds of ploys

MadDog76

It is important to remember that before Joe started his Juice-only plan or shooting the movie that he had no idea if he could achieve his goals through Juicing or not ........ it was a personal experiment the result of which was that it did work!
So there could hardly have been any pre-movie plan to promote anything (Juicing, Rebooting or particular Juicers) because what if at the end of the movie Joe hadn't achieved any of his goals???

Joe isn't a professional film-maker so if any company wanted to promote their product through filming a propaganda documentary then Joe Cross certainly would not have been a viable choice to push said propaganda ........

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Based on ??? is there solid information out there in line with your view ?

Again you fail to point out the "cynical ploy"

Fasting could be beneficial so i don't 3understand your issue regarding all kinds of ploys

My opinion is based entirely on the movie , i'm conflicted because it could be just a poorly made documentary but it could also be an infomercial masquerading as a documentary. Less not kid ourselves he is financially doing very well out of this.

MadDog76

MadDog76 wrote: »

It is important to remember that before Joe started his Juice-only plan or shooting the movie that he had no idea if he could achieve his goals through Juicing or not ........ it was a personal experiment the result of which was that it did work!
So there could hardly have been any pre-movie plan to promote anything (Juicing, Rebooting or particular Juicers) because what if at the end of the movie Joe hadn't achieved any of his goals???

Joe isn't a professional film-maker so if any company wanted to promote their product through filming a propaganda documentary then Joe Cross certainly would not have been a viable choice to push said propaganda ........

jh79 wrote: »

My opinion is based entirely on the movie , i'm conflicted because it could be just a poorly made documentary but it could also be an infomercial masquerading as a documentary. Less not kid ourselves he is financially doing very well out of this.

See above post ......... it's also important to note that Joe Cross was quite successful and financially wealthy long before he made the movie so money was not a motive.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Doesn't explain what advantage the fasting has over just reducing intake of so called unhealthy food.

How does fasting release "stored toxins"?

Just to unnerve the cynical ploy part

Prolonged fasting forces the body to use stores of glucose, fat and ketones, but also breaks down a significant portion of white blood cells. Longo likens the effect to lightening a plane of excess cargo.

jh79 wrote: »

My opinion is based entirely on the movie , i'm conflicted because it could be just a poorly made documentary but it could also be an infomercial masquerading as a documentary. Less not kid ourselves he is financially doing very well out of this.

Of course you are entitled to your opinion but for a second i thought you actually discovered a "cynical ploy"

And what is wrong about making money now these days ?? its also what pharmaceuticals are very good in ... You don't seem to have an issue with that ... ignoring that fact seems to suit your point better by the looks of it

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Just to unnerve the cynical ploy part






Of course you are entitled to your opinion but for a second i thought you actually discovered a "cynical ploy"

And what is wrong about making money now these days ?? its also what pharmaceuticals are very good in ... You don't seem to have an issue with that ... ignoring that fact seems to suit your point better by the looks of it

Are glucose and ketones toxins? Do kidneys and the liver work better when fasting?

Is controlled weight loss through a controlled diet not better than extreme fasting?

No i haven't discovered evidence of a cynical plot just it looks like it possibly may be in my opinion given the film never elevates itself above infomercial standards.

No problem about the money making side of things, he is doing no harm really considering all he is promoting is the blending of veg. He has toned down the "cure" talk and now says he manages his illness too but financial motivations may explain the poorly designed nature of the film, it is tailored to sell his message rather than give a true evaluation of the merits of juicing.

MadDog76

When I decided to try Juicing, after watching the movie for free, I chose a Philips Juicer and a Jason Vale Juice Plan as opposed to a Breville Juicer (the Juicer used in the movie) or a Joe Cross Reboot Plan ....................... Breville and Joe Cross must be f*****g fuming seeing as how they didn't make a cent out of me which was the whole point of the movie!! :rolleyes:

jh79

jh79 wrote: »

Leaving aside what constitutes a "cure" lets look at what info the film gives us and what conclusions can be drawn;

1) He was obese, liked an hedonistic lifestyle and had a stressful job. He was on various medications including those to treat UC.

The causes of UC are generally unknown but triggers for flare ups of the illness are known , these include stress , alcohol and poor diet. His lifestyle meant he continually encountered these triggers.

The drugs he was taking either decreased swelling of the hives or were anti-histamines. We are never told of the effect of the drugs on the frequency and severity of his hives compared to prior to his treatment. So no conclusions can be drawn on their effectiveness in his case.

2) He fasted, juiced, had a holiday and took meds for 60 days leading to no flare ups.

We know by fasting and taking a holiday he removed a number of possible triggers ie alcohol, stress and diet based allergies / triggers. We know that the meds he was taking reduce either swelling or histamine levels and given the decrease in triggers would be more effective. We have no evidence that "juicing" had any effect here*.

3) He continued juicing and combined this with a healthy diet.

Again the healthy diet avoids known triggers negating the need for meds. The effects of juicing on his illness (which he still suffers from) remain unknown.

*Most nutrition based miracle cure CT's I've come across claim a conveniently vague mechanism of action whereby the nutrients improve the immune system (don't think it would work here anyways), in this case the triggers are removed meaning even if this were true we wouldn't be able to tell.

To make claims regarding the effectiveness of juicing over that of meds or just in general in treating UC he would need to revert to his old diet and then introduce juicing in place of his meds.

Weisses, could you give your opinion on whether this is a fair appraisal of the movie and if not why not?

cormie

I think that's about the 4th or 5th time you've quoted your own post jh79, seems to be going around in circles here.

Can we at least agree that juicing is probably the healthiest way to lose weight and clean yourself out FAST or is there disagreement on that?

jh79

cormie wrote: »

I think that's about the 4th or 5th time you've quoted your own post jh79, seems to be going around in circles here.

Can we at least agree that juicing is probably the healthiest way to lose weight and clean yourself out FAST or is there disagreement on that?

Check back a few posts, I agreed to answer weisses question on condition he answered mine. If weisses says he doesn't want to answer it I won't ask again.

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Weisses, could you give your opinion on whether this is a fair appraisal of the movie and if not why not?

Looks fair enough ... I'll only believe the juicing part has more influence then you think it does.... I found it very beneficial when I juiced for a while, and my diet was not even that bad before