FAT, SICK & NEARLY DEAD

jh79

cormie wrote: »

To me, the whole idea behind it seems to be that it's a solution to a Worldwide food demand issue which is influenced by the overconsumption of animal products and waste of resources and land to accommodate this and general overconsumption and that in an ideal World it would be possible for everyone to eat and thrive off local, organically grown produce. I don't know if I'm dreaming though

Surely organic is less efficient so has a larger carbon footprint? Local without the organic restrictions would be the ideal?

King Mob

jh79 wrote: »

Surely organic is less efficient so has a larger carbon footprint? Local without the organic restrictions would be the ideal?

According to Norman Bourlaug, nobel prizing biologist who specialised in farming techniques, if we used only "organic" methods we could only feed about 4 billion people on the planet.

cormie

What if everyone were vegan and consumed only fruit, veg, nuts and seeds? :pac:

King Mob

cormie wrote: »

What if everyone were vegan and consumed only fruit, veg, nuts and seeds? :pac:

He doesn't specify, but he was likely referring to both meat and plant farming.

But even so, organic farming of vegetables still requires more land than normal techniques.

But forcing everyone to be vegan leads to a lot of problems that I think you would be opposed to.
For example, would meat be totally banned or just available only to the rich?

And how about essential nutrients that aren't provided as well for a vegan diet?
Since we wouldn't be allowed to alter plants to provide them like with Vitamin A rice, then the only option is supplements, which would be provided by the dreaded big pharma.

Do you think this things are worth it just because of irrational fear of new technology?

jh79

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/279564.php

Pretty balanced article on the Newcastle study.

So we have a compositional difference that in fairness could be due to natural variation and no real idea if this variation could have any impact on health.

cormie

Sorry, I'm not talking about forcing anyone to do anything, but just imagining a dream world where everyone was willingly vegan, as in the thought of eating animal products didn't even cross minds, a Shangri-la of free roaming animals, abundant local farms etc. You don't think such a world would be sustainable?

With regards to essential nutrients being provided on a vegan diet, I think there's plenty of strict vegans thriving without the need for any supplements. Vitamin A can be obtained easily through the likes of dark leafy greens, wild dandelion leaves etc, as can many many essential nutrients. Dark leafy greens are packed with goodness in general.

jh79

cormie wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not talking about forcing anyone to do anything, but just imagining a dream world where everyone was willingly vegan, as in the thought of eating animal products didn't even cross minds, a Shangri-la of free roaming animals, abundant local farms etc. You don't think such a world would be sustainable?

With regards to essential nutrients being provided on a vegan diet, I think there's plenty of strict vegans thriving without the need for any supplements. Vitamin A can be obtained easily through the likes of dark leafy greens, wild dandelion leaves etc, as can many many essential nutrients. Dark leafy greens are packed with goodness in general.

Sounds more like a nightmare to me.

King Mob

cormie wrote: »

Sorry, I'm not talking about forcing anyone to do anything, but just imagining a dream world where everyone was willingly vegan, as in the thought of eating animal products didn't even cross minds, a Shangri-la of free roaming animals, abundant local farms etc. You don't think such a world would be sustainable?

No I don't think it's sustainable and it sounds like a very dour place to live.
But if you are imagining fantasy lands where people could suddenly become vegan for the good of everyone, why not imagine one were amble food in great variety is available and safe thanks to well regulated, sustainable advanced farming?

One's a bit more achievable and appealing than the other.

cormie wrote: »

With regards to essential nutrients being provided on a vegan diet, I think there's plenty of strict vegans thriving without the need for any supplements. Vitamin A can be obtained easily through the likes of dark leafy greens, wild dandelion leaves etc, as can many many essential nutrients. Dark leafy greens are packed with goodness in general.

But assuming this is true, vegan diets do not suit everyone and every lifestyle.
And even still not everyone will have the disposable time and income to forage from weeds to eat.
People will offer supplements. Supplements already are already used by vegans even with their disposable time and money.
Your Vegan Utopia would be reliant on Big Pharma.

cormie

Folks, this is only an idea of course. I don't think the world turning vegan is ever going to happen. I'm not even vegan myself, or vegetarian, it's especially difficult with my lifestyle and work. I am mostly, but I don't guilt myself if I don't follow it, but I do believe it's a better personal and environmental choice if it can be achieved.

With regards it being a nightmare, if people had a different thinking of what constitutes as food, not to change any previous thinking, but just if everyone thought differently, then nobody would think they're restricting themselves or "missing out" on anything. Certainly some vegans take supplements as it is, but what if instead of convenient stores and corner shops selling bread and milk, they sold delicious vegan meals and fresh veg juices, packed with nutrients, the prices would be far more affordable due to larger production scales of what's in demand and more automated processes to the consumer.

Ok, this is kind of going into dreamland which isn't achieving anything.

jh79

cormie wrote: »

Folks, this is only an idea of course. I don't think the world turning vegan is ever going to happen. I'm not even vegan myself, or vegetarian, it's especially difficult with my lifestyle and work. I am mostly, but I don't guilt myself if I don't follow it, but I do believe it's a better personal and environmental choice if it can be achieved.

With regards it being a nightmare, if people had a different thinking of what constitutes as food, not to change any previous thinking, but just if everyone thought differently, then nobody would think they're restricting themselves or "missing out" on anything. Certainly some vegans take supplements as it is, but what if instead of convenient stores and corner shops selling bread and milk, they sold delicious vegan meals and fresh veg juices, packed with nutrients, the prices would be far more affordable due to larger production scales of what's in demand and more automated processes to the consumer.

Ok, this is kind of going into dreamland which isn't achieving anything.

A balanced diet that meets nutritional needs is easily achieved through what is already available in the supermarket and relatively cheap.

cormie

Yes, but with negative affects on environment and of course, animal welfare.

King Mob

cormie wrote: »

Yes, but with negative affects on environment and of course, animal welfare.

One way to solve this is to use more advanced techniques that result in higher yields per area, more resistant crops that use less pesticides and can grow in harsher environments and well as being more healthy and nutritious.

As for animal welfare, we could have lab grown meat.

MadDog76

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I saw the film, loved it, thought it was great, etc, etc. Already had a juicer, so halfway there....

Spent over €100 on fruit and veg and lasted two days. Was nauseous, sluggish, exhausted (did it over a weekend and barely got out of bed the second day) irritable, headachy and downright miserable.

For an ordinary person looking to lose some weight, maybe replacing one meal a day, for a period of time, with a juice might provide a good kick start, but juicing consistently for 3-,7-,10+ days is just another gimmick that will go the way of Atkins, etc.

Joe himself suffered these symptoms for the first 3/4 days but he pushed through them because he knew they were just withdrawal symptoms (caffeine, high fat foods, processed refined sugar etc.) and that once his system was clear of these toxins he would begin to reap the health benefits which he did ......... you just gave up.

Torakx

I have done similar myself, except I use a sort of starvation method.
The issue most people have, is that they have been living on crap for solong, their body needs time to burn through it and exfoliate etc.
The juicing method looked good, because you would get vitamins and starve at the same time. I think that it might even push people into ketosis where fat is burned instead of carbs/sugar for energy and the brain uses ketogens(i think) for energy.
The change over to burning fat via Ketosis could be one reason for uncomfortable symptoms.
Another is a dying off of yeast and other organisms in the gut or allover the body if someone had a systemic infection, due to bad diet and a combnation of antibiotics or steroids which completely destroy your gut flora.

I think the reason symptoms might not go away when someone reverts to a bad diet, is first of all it's a bad idet and normalfood most people eat is slowly killing them and wearing them down. It's great many live into their 80's and 90's despite this!
Another is if the persons gut has been compromised by these products, you can't just introduce the same old food and expect this new environment toact like the old one. It's a completely different environment and sothat person needs a new digestive system..Which I am still wondering how to manage...

So I can agree with the skeptics, that this does not cure the root cause, as the root cause is originating with the medical and pharmaceutical industry and their advice and practices with regards diet(non existant?) and medecine, as well as peoples education generally.
I can also agree with the OP, in that you can go on these diets or just simply starve yourself, until the build up of say yeast in many cases has died off and then continue on a safe diet low on carbs. Just no grains or refined carbs(a normal diet for mankind, all the way up to before farming and agriculture I would guess).
The problem is that there is no known way i have seen that can replace what anti biotics kill, once they have upset that balance enough that it cannot recover by itself.

So erm.. I think juicing is a great way to give your body the best chance to fast and recieve enough nutrients on the short term.
But as JH79 has said, really people need to just stop eating really bad **** that has been labeled as food.
One issue there still is the anti biotics and steroids. I beleive there is a use for them, like if I am going todie froman infection, sure i might take a "chemo" hit to the gut just tosurvive a few more years. But for a chest infection thatis not pneumonia, i would never touch them.
I believe the origin of many illnesess now relating to digestion and allergies is the medical and pharmaceutical industry, combined with education and propaganda.
A system of culling maybe?
I wonder do the "elites" eat the same crap we are feed. Do they recieve anti biotics and steroids without advice or any awareness of consequences as most are?
Maybe they do and humanity is screwing itself. But the whole agenda 21 thing seems a simpler answer than, we are alljust really stupid as a race. Apparently we made it to the moon.
If I can detect/research the main issues with health and figure out the process causing illness, surely the experts have done so long ago.

MadDog76

Torakx wrote: »

I have done similar myself, except I use a sort of starvation method.
The issue most people have, is that they have been living on crap for solong, their body needs time to burn through it and exfoliate etc.
The juicing method looked good, because you would get vitamins and starve at the same time. I think that it might even push people into ketosis where fat is burned instead of carbs/sugar for energy and the brain uses ketogens(i think) for energy.
The change over to burning fat via Ketosis could be one reason for uncomfortable symptoms.
Another is a dying off of yeast and other organisms in the gut or allover the body if someone had a systemic infection, due to bad diet and a combnation of antibiotics or steroids which completely destroy your gut flora.

I think the reason symptoms might not go away when someone reverts to a bad diet, is first of all it's a bad idet and normalfood most people eat is slowly killing them and wearing them down. It's great many live into their 80's and 90's despite this!
Another is if the persons gut has been compromised by these products, you can't just introduce the same old food and expect this new environment toact like the old one. It's a completely different environment and sothat person needs a new digestive system..Which I am still wondering how to manage...

So I can agree with the skeptics, that this does not cure the root cause, as the root cause is originating with the medical and pharmaceutical industry and their advice and practices with regards diet(non existant?) and medecine, as well as peoples education generally.
I can also agree with the OP, in that you can go on these diets or just simply starve yourself, until the build up of say yeast in many cases has died off and then continue on a safe diet low on carbs. Just no grains or refined carbs(a normal diet for mankind, all the way up to before farming and agriculture I would guess).
The problem is that there is no known way i have seen that can replace what anti biotics kill, once they have upset that balance enough that it cannot recover by itself.

So erm.. I think juicing is a great way to give your body the best chance to fast and recieve enough nutrients on the short term.
But as JH79 has said, really people need to just stop eating really bad **** that has been labeled as food.
One issue there still is the anti biotics and steroids. I beleive there is a use for them, like if I am going todie froman infection, sure i might take a "chemo" hit to the gut just tosurvive a few more years. But for a chest infection thatis not pneumonia, i would never touch them.
I believe the origin of many illnesess now relating to digestion and allergies is the medical and pharmaceutical industry, combined with education and propaganda.
A system of culling maybe?
I wonder do the "elites" eat the same crap we are feed. Do they recieve anti biotics and steroids without advice or any awareness of consequences as most are?
Maybe they do and humanity is screwing itself. But the whole agenda 21 thing seems a simpler answer than, we are alljust really stupid as a race. Apparently we made it to the moon.
If I can detect/research the main issues with health and figure out the process causing illness, surely the experts have done so long ago.

Juicing and starving are not the same thing ........... they are not even minutely related in any way whatsoever in fact.

Juicing is properly feeding your body and, for some people, probably for the first time in an individual's life for many many years ........ whereas starving is just ........ starving!

MadDog76

The thing with Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead is Joe Cross and Phil Staples were way over-weight, unhealthy, medicated to the max and suffering from debilitating autoimmune diseases at the beginning of the documentary .......... they both did Juice only plans .......... by the end of the documentary (Juice plans) they both lost weight, looked a lot healthier, no longer needed their medication and were no longer suffering symptoms of their debilitating autoimmune diseases.

These are all facts available to see for yourself ......... even if you don't agree with their methods, no reasonable intelligent and logical person can disagree with the results ........ Juicing did/does work, simple as that

jh79

MadDog76 wrote: »

The thing with Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead is Joe Cross and Phil Staples were way over-weight, unhealthy, medicated to the max and suffering from debilitating autoimmune diseases at the beginning of the documentary .......... they both did Juice only plans .......... by the end of the documentary they both lost weight, looked a lot healthier, no longer needed their medication and were no longer suffering symptoms of their debilitating autoimmune diseases.

These are all facts available to see for yourself ......... even if you don't agree with their methods, no reasonable intelligent and logical person can disagree with the results ........ Juicing did/does work, simple as that

It is impossible to tell from the film whether it was the avoidance of trigger foods, an improved diet, juicing or a combination of all three that improved his situation.

MadDog76

jh79 wrote: »

It is impossible to tell from the film whether it was the avoidance of trigger foods, an improved diet, juicing or a combination of all three that improved his situation.

They went on a Juice only plan and the results speak for themselves ......... that much you can tell from the documentary

jh79

MadDog76 wrote: »

They went on a Juice only plan and the results speak for themselves ......... that much you can tell from the documentary

By juicing he avoided known triggers, no way of telling which had the greater influence, the juicing or the trigger avoidance.

MadDog76

jh79 wrote: »

By juicing he avoided known triggers, no way of telling which had the greater influence, the juicing or the trigger avoidance.

The very essence of a Juice only plan is to avoid everything ......... but Juice

And it works .......

jh79

MadDog76 wrote: »

The very essence of a Juice only plan is to avoid everything ......... but Juice

And it works .......

The movie doesn't prove that juicing has any advantage over a normal diet.

MadDog76

MadDog76 wrote: »

The thing with Fat, Sick & Nearly Dead is Joe Cross and Phil Staples were way over-weight, unhealthy, medicated to the max and suffering from debilitating autoimmune diseases at the beginning of the documentary .......... they both did Juice only plans .......... by the end of the documentary (Juice plans) they both lost weight, looked a lot healthier, no longer needed their medication and were no longer suffering symptoms of their debilitating autoimmune diseases.

These are all facts available to see for yourself ......... even if you don't agree with their methods, no reasonable intelligent and logical person can disagree with the results ........ Juicing did/does work, simple as that

jh79 wrote: »

The movie doesn't prove that juicing has any advantage over a normal diet.

Actually it proves exactly that .......... unless you can show me documentary evidence of an individual with the same issues/illnesses etc. that Joe and Phil have who embark on a 60 day "normal diet" and achieve the same astounding and dramatic results that Joe and Phil achieve?

As I've said no reasonable intelligent and logical person can disagree with the results ........

jh79

MadDog76 wrote: »

Actually it proves exactly that .......... unless you can show me documentary evidence of an individual with the same issues/illnesses etc. that Joe and Phil have who embark on a 60 day "normal diet" and achieve the same astounding and dramatic results that Joe and Phil achieve?

As I've said no reasonable intelligent and logical person can disagree with the results ........

People do it every day by avoiding their triggers. For some it's alcohol others caffeine.

Can you explain the magic powers of the blenders to me ?

jh79

jh79 wrote: »

Leaving aside what constitutes a "cure" lets look at what info the film gives us and what conclusions can be drawn;

1) He was obese, liked an hedonistic lifestyle and had a stressful job. He was on various medications including those to treat UC.

The causes of UC are generally unknown but triggers for flare ups of the illness are known , these include stress , alcohol and poor diet. His lifestyle meant he continually encountered these triggers.

The drugs he was taking either decreased swelling of the hives or were anti-histamines. We are never told of the effect of the drugs on the frequency and severity of his hives compared to prior to his treatment. So no conclusions can be drawn on their effectiveness in his case.

2) He fasted, juiced, had a holiday and took meds for 60 days leading to no flare ups.

We know by fasting and taking a holiday he removed a number of possible triggers ie alcohol, stress and diet based allergies / triggers. We know that the meds he was taking reduce either swelling or histamine levels and given the decrease in triggers would be more effective. We have no evidence that "juicing" had any effect here*.

3) He continued juicing and combined this with a healthy diet.

Again the healthy diet avoids known triggers negating the need for meds. The effects of juicing on his illness (which he still suffers from) remain unknown.

*Most nutrition based miracle cure CT's I've come across claim a conveniently vague mechanism of action whereby the nutrients improve the immune system (don't think it would work here anyways), in this case the triggers are removed meaning even if this were true we wouldn't be able to tell.

To make claims regarding the effectiveness of juicing over that of meds or just in general in treating UC he would need to revert to his old diet and then introduce juicing in place of his meds.

MadDog76 could you explain why my above summary of the film is flawed?

MadDog76

jh79 wrote: »

MadDog76 could you explain why my above summary of the film is flawed?

It's fundamentally flawed because it's a pre-conceived biased opinion that is ingrained in you before you even watched the movie that no matter what you saw in the movie you were never going to be open-minded ............ you decided before you saw the movie that you were not going agree with anything in it that defies your logic.

jh79

MadDog76 wrote: »

It's fundamentally flawed because it's a pre-conceived biased opinion that is ingrained in you before you even watched the movie that no matter what you saw in the movie you were never going to be open-minded ............ you decided before you saw the movie that you were not going agree with anything in it that defies your logic.

I think it is a fair appraisal of the movie , I was hoping you could tell me why I am wrong based on your interpretation of the movie.

Could you point out which parts of my logic are flawed?

MadDog76

jh79 wrote: »

I think it is a fair appraisal of the movie , I was hoping you could tell me why I am wrong based on your interpretation of the movie.

Could you point out which parts of my logic are flawed?

Of course you do ........ you're biased

jh79

MadDog76 wrote: »

Of course you do ........ you're biased

Why not point out where my perceived bias has compromised my summary?

MadDog76

jh79 wrote: »

Why not point out where my perceived bias has compromised my summary?

What would be the point?? If watching the movie wasn't enough to open your mind just a little bit then I am certainly not going to be able to ........ it would be a waste of my time and yours to be honest.

I was once like you ........ before I'd seen the movie, before I started researching Juicing, before I started Juicing .......... but with one notable difference ie. I have an open mind ....... I'm open to trying new things, I'm open to respecting people's life experience if they share them with me, I'm open to finding out for myself what works and doesn't work by actually doing rather than guessing ........ I'm a positive person who looks for the positive rather than the negatives.

jh79

MadDog76 wrote: »

What would be the point?? If watching the movie wasn't enough to open your mind just a little bit then I am certainly not going to be able to ........ it would be a waste of my time and yours to be honest.

I was once like you ........ before I'd seen the movie, before I started researching Juicing, before I started Juicing .......... but with one notable difference ie. I have an open mind ....... I'm open to trying new things, I'm open to respecting people's life experience if they share them with me, I'm open to finding out for myself what works and doesn't work by actually doing rather than guessing ........ I'm a positive person who looks for the positive rather than the negatives.

Why contribute to a thread about the movie if you're not willing to discuss it?