FAT, SICK & NEARLY DEAD

cormie

Arbiter of Good Taste wrote: »

I saw the film, loved it, thought it was great, etc, etc. Already had a juicer, so halfway there....

Spent over €100 on fruit and veg and lasted two days. Was nauseous, sluggish, exhausted (did it over a weekend and barely got out of bed the second day) irritable, headachy and downright miserable.

For an ordinary person looking to lose some weight, maybe replacing one meal a day, for a period of time, with a juice might provide a good kick start, but juicing consistently for 3-,7-,10+ days is just another gimmick that will go the way of Atkins, etc.

Your reaction could be a case of detoxification. You can't really compare juicing to the likes of Atkins. It would probably be worth looking into it and for advice on guides before going full at it. I don't know enough about it myself but have heard many great things about the benefits.

Arbiter of Good Taste

cormie wrote: »

Your reaction could be a case of detoxification. You can't really compare juicing to the likes of Atkins. It would probably be worth looking into it and for advice on guides before going full at it. I don't know enough about it myself but have heard many great things about the benefits.

I did do quite a bit of research before I launched into it so I did expect a certain reaction, but not half as bad as it actually was. It really wasn't for me - or I would venture to say for anyone who has to perform at a full time job.

cormie

Maybe it just wasn't the right timing for you and the combination of detoxification etc threw you completely off? I'd love to be able to give it a proper go, but I think I'd need to be on some island doing yoga every morning with beautiful weather and relaxing the rest of the day while somebody else was busy making my juices In the mean time, I try and have the odd juice as an addition to my diet. If preparation and cleaning the juicer wasn't such a pain it'd be a lot easier though

Brown Bomber

cormie wrote: »

Maybe it just wasn't the right timing for you and the combination of detoxification etc threw you completely off? I'd love to be able to give it a proper go, but I think I'd need to be on some island doing yoga every morning with beautiful weather and relaxing the rest of the day while somebody else was busy making my juices

for full disclosure, I am on day 7. I am/was none of fat, sick or nearly dead to begin with but I took it on as a personal experiment/challenge, I was curious to see what I could fix that I wasn't aware was wrong with me. I nearly cracked in the first couple of days but I think that was the withdrawl from caffeine. Feeling fantastic right now, sleeping better than ever, just buzzing with energy.

jh79

Brown Bomber wrote: »

He didn't have hives, he had chronic hives. Please provide evidence this is an "obesity-related illness" or stop claiming it.

A large portion of the film consists of him asking obese Americans who do they believe is responsible for their weight, are they happy about it and are they aware of the the health implications.

His is own situation was he was obese with a diet full of known triggers for his illness. His obesity contributed to his illness as it increased his exposure to his triggers. The same with the guy he helped.

Replace obesity with diet based illnesses and the point still remains that nobody was cured by juicing.

jh79

Chronic urticaria tends to come and go. Many people find that certain things make it reappear or make existing symptoms worse. Triggers include:
stress, alcohol , caffeine, warm temperatures, prolonged pressure on the skin – this can happen by wearing tight clothing, medications – such as NSAIDs, and the painkiller codeine, certain food additives – such as salicylates, which are found in tomatoes, orange juice and tea, insect bites and stings
exposure to heat, cold, pressure or water

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Nettle-rash/Pages/Causes.aspx

By fasting he removed the triggers. There was no cure. Obesity increases the exposure to these triggers so it can be described as an obesity related illness.

Many possible migraine triggers have been suggested, including hormonal, emotional, physical, dietary, environmental and medicinal factors.Dietary triggers:
missed, delayed or irregular meals, dehydration, alcohol, the food additive tyramine, caffeine products, such as tea and coffee, specific foods such as chocolate, citrus fruit and cheese

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Migraine/Pages/Causes.aspx

The woman with the migraines was not obese but the fasting removed her exposure to known migraine triggers. She was not cured by juicing.

Brown Bomber

jh79 wrote: »

A large portion of the film consists of him asking obese Americans who do they believe is responsible for their weight, are they happy about it and are they aware of the the health implications.

His is own situation was he was obese with a diet full of known triggers for his illness. His obesity contributed to his illness as it increased his exposure to his triggers. The same with the guy he helped.

Replace obesity with diet based illnesses and the point still remains that nobody was cured by juicing.

Can we please try to keep on the level here? I've asked you to provide evidence that chronic hives is obesity related as you seem to be repeating ad-infinitum.


What we do know: He had a condition that years of medication, hospital stays and the whole 9 yards couldn't cure.


cure (kūr)
1. the treatment of any disease, or of a special case.
2. the successful treatment of a disease or wound.
3. a system of treating diseases.
4. a medicine effective in treating a disease.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/cured


He stopped taking the medication and with the aid of a healthy diet his body cured itself. Or where do you disagree?

jh79

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Can we please try to keep on the level here? I've asked you to provide evidence that chronic hives is obesity related as you seem to be repeating ad-infinitum.


What we do know: He had a condition that years of medication, hospital stays and the whole 9 yards couldn't cure.


cure (kūr)
1. the treatment of any disease, or of a special case.
2. the successful treatment of a disease or wound.
3. a system of treating diseases.
4. a medicine effective in treating a disease.
http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/cured


He stopped taking the medication and with the aid of a healthy diet his body cured itself. Or where do you disagree?

I don't understand why you are so hung up on his condition being obesity related , its not important to the conspiracy you are presenting. So we can move on can we agree that;

The film in general is about poor diet choices, obesity and diet related illnesses.

The three real life examples consisted of two obese men and a woman of normal weight.

Their illness while not necessarily obesity related, they are certainly diet related. Obesity generally evolves from poor food choices which in turn would trigger the immune responses they suffered from.

The went on a fast and removed all triggers from their diet thereby removing the symptoms of their illness negating their need for medicine. They were not cured. Reintroduce the triggers and the symptoms return.

If you had an allergy to cats and drank a juice as the the cat left the room would you consider yourself cured??

Saipanne

Brown Bomber wrote: »

However, you have ignored it and instead began to look up links for hidden agendas.

On the ct forum? Well, I never.

Brown Bomber

jh79 wrote: »

I don't understand why you are so hung up on his condition being obesity related , its not important to the conspiracy you are presenting. So we can move on can we agree that;

The film in general is about poor diet choices, obesity and diet related illnesses.

The three real life examples consisted of two obese men and a woman of normal weight.

Their illness while not necessarily obesity related, they are certainly diet related. Obesity generally evolves from poor food choices which in turn would trigger the immune responses they suffered from.

The went on a fast and removed all triggers from their diet thereby removing the symptoms of their illness negating their need for medicine. They were not cured. Reintroduce the triggers and the symptoms return.

If you had an allergy to cats and drank a juice as the the cat left the room would you consider yourself cured??

Strawman.
There is no evidence he was allergic to anything. What exactly was he allergic to which all the tests and skin biopsies and so on couldn't find?

jh79

Could you point out the part of the film where he re-introduced possible triggers to his diet but his juicing regime prevented a flare up?

Or where the woman with migraine was able to enjoy more of known migraine triggers such as caffeine or alcohol because juicing "cured" her?

jh79

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Strawman.
There is no evidence he was allergic to anything. What exactly was he allergic to which all the tests and skin biopsies and so on couldn't find?

Could you answer my next post?

Also there was a cartoon explaining his illness , his body produces histamine when it is not necessary essentially an allergic reaction.

jh79

Urticaria occurs when histamine and other chemicals are released from under the skin's surface, causing the tissues to swell.

Long-term (chronic) urticaria may occur when the body's immune system attacks its own tissues. This is known as an autoimmune reaction.
Antibodies (proteins that usually fight bacteria and viruses) then trigger the release of histamine, resulting in urticaria.

Triggers include:
stress
alcohol
caffeine
warm temperatures
prolonged pressure on the skin – this can happen by wearing tight clothing
medications – such as NSAIDs, and the painkiller codeine
certain food additives – such as salicylates, which are found in tomatoes, orange juice and tea
insect bites and stings
exposure to heat, cold, pressure or water

http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Nettle-rash/Pages/Causes.aspx

By going on a fast he removed triggers from his diet, there was no cure shown in the movie.

Brown Bomber

jh79 wrote: »

Could you answer my next post?

Also there was a cartoon explaining his illness , his body produces histamine when it is not necessary essentially an allergic reaction.

I will answer your questions but I want to take this one step at a time and just want to establish a few bases. Correct me if I am wrong.


1) His illness was not "obesity related"
2) You don't actually know if he was allergic to anything, nevermind what.
3) Medicine has failed him.
4) Abandoning medicine and a change of lifestyle cured his disease.

jh79

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I will answer your questions but I want to take this one step at a time and just want to establish a few bases. Correct me if I am wrong.


1) His illness was not "obesity related"
2) You don't actually know if he was allergic to anything, nevermind what.
3) Medicine has failed him.
4) Abandoning medicine and a change of lifestyle cured his disease.

1) OK , it is diet related but his obesity was an aggravating factor as it introduced large quantities of know risk factors into his system such as food additives and alcohol. Stress would be another influencing factor.

2) True , the cause of his illness is rarely found. The use of the word allergy is my untrained interpretation of the medical info i have read. It is also how he explains his illness in the film ie mosquito bite cartoon and release of histamine (reminds me of hay fever). It seems the correct term is "aggravating factor" (EDIT: Allergy may still be appropriate it is still up for debate, the nhs link describes food allergies as a recognized trigger). Doesn't really change anything for our discussion.

3) No it hasn't, his medicine was to manage his condition. He kept taking drugs during the fast.

4) No, changing his lifestyle and reducing his intake of aggravating factors removed the need for medicine. He had UC (and always will) before he began taking the medicine. Diet is a recognized trigger for his illness that is why the conspiracy doesn't work. His poor decisions aggravated his immune system. The drugs were only prescribed to manage the situation.

jh79

I have come across papers that there is no cure for UC and also some that say that diet has an curative effect! Make of that what you will!

At the end of the day the man still has an Auto-immune condition, his body releases histamine when it shouldn't. He will have to avoid his triggers for the rest of his life and in my eyes that means he has not been cured.

jh79

Leaving aside what constitutes a "cure" lets look at what info the film gives us and what conclusions can be drawn;

1) He was obese, liked an hedonistic lifestyle and had a stressful job. He was on various medications including those to treat UC.

The causes of UC are generally unknown but triggers for flare ups of the illness are known , these include stress , alcohol and poor diet. His lifestyle meant he continually encountered these triggers.

The drugs he was taking either decreased swelling of the hives or were anti-histamines. We are never told of the effect of the drugs on the frequency and severity of his hives compared to prior to his treatment. So no conclusions can be drawn on their effectiveness in his case.

2) He fasted, juiced, had a holiday and took meds for 60 days leading to no flare ups.

We know by fasting and taking a holiday he removed a number of possible triggers ie alcohol, stress and diet based allergies / triggers. We know that the meds he was taking reduce either swelling or histamine levels and given the decrease in triggers would be more effective. We have no evidence that "juicing" had any effect here*.

3) He continued juicing and combined this with a healthy diet.

Again the healthy diet avoids known triggers negating the need for meds. The effects of juicing on his illness (which he still suffers from) remain unknown.

*Most nutrition based miracle cure CT's I've come across claim a conveniently vague mechanism of action whereby the nutrients improve the immune system (don't think it would work here anyways), in this case the triggers are removed meaning even if this were true we wouldn't be able to tell.

To make claims regarding the effectiveness of juicing over that of meds or just in general in treating UC he would need to revert to his old diet and then introduce juicing in place of his meds.

tomaso11

its not clear in the movie, but he has done many podcast and also has a website where he states that its not the "juice" as such which is the cure.. but rather the body that is healing itselft when getting a break from all the bad food that is normally consumed. The juice is only providing the nutrients that the body needs and helps with the detox

one Documentary that I found very interesting was "hungry for change" is on netflix, way more informative but it follows the same idea.

jh79

tomaso11 wrote: »

its not clear in the movie, but he has done many podcast and also has a website where he states that its not the "juice" as such which is the cure.. but rather the body that is healing itselft when getting a break from all the bad food that is normally consumed. The juice is only providing the nutrients that the body needs and helps with the detox

one Documentary that I found very interesting was "hungry for change" is on netflix, way more informative but it follows the same idea.

Juicing does not help with detox, detox diets are a myth.

Had a look at his website also, he says that juicing and a healthy diet helps him manage his illness. He does not use the word cure on the rebootwithjoe website.

cormie

jh79 wrote: »

Juicing does not help with detox, detox diets are a myth.

Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying detoxing itself is a myth? How would juicing not help with detox if you're giving your body a chance to get rid of **** while consuming a very minimal amount, but still nutrient rich, clean organic and natural food source?

jh79

cormie wrote: »

Can you elaborate on this? Are you saying detoxing itself is a myth? How would juicing not help with detox if you're giving your body a chance to get rid of **** while consuming a very minimal amount, but still nutrient rich, clean organic and natural food source?

The rate of detox isn't changed , no need for anything "organic" and the extra nutrients don't speed the process up. Laying off the bad stuff is sufficient.

http://www.theguardian.com/befit/story/0,,1379231,00.html

cormie

Ah so detoxing is real then, I was wondering if it was being claimed as a conspiracy now too

Fasting seems to have a lot of good spoken about it, I guess fasting is the best way to detox as you're giving your body a complete break? Next to that, would it not be only consuming fresh, organic/wild, just made vegetable juice as your prolonging the period at which bad food is kept out of the system?

jh79

cormie wrote: »

Ah so detoxing is real then, I was wondering if it was being claimed as a conspiracy now too

Fasting seems to have a lot of good spoken about it, I guess fasting is the best way to detox as you're giving your body a complete break? Next to that, would it not be only consuming fresh, organic/wild, just made vegetable juice as your prolonging the period at which bad food is kept out of the system?

Sorry detoxing is real it is just the idea that a special diet can promote detox is a myth.

Wouldn't go to the extreme of fasting, organic isn't any healthier so unnecessary . If you have a balanced sensible diet detox is not necessary.

cormie

It's meant to beneficial to give the body a break every now and then and fasting can be of great benefit from what I've heard.

Also from what I've looked into, the whole organic isn't healthier thing is based on what seem to be pretty premature studies, I mean the long term health effects of consuming GM/pesticide soaked foods can't be fully known at this stage, given the choice of conventional or organic, I'm always choosing organic, given the choice of organic or wild, wild is even better as the soil would most likely be far more nutrient rich.

jh79

cormie wrote: »

It's meant to beneficial to give the body a break every now and then and fasting can be of great benefit from what I've heard.

Also from what I've looked into, the whole organic isn't healthier thing is based on what seem to be pretty premature studies, I mean the long term health effects of consuming GM/pesticide soaked foods can't be fully known at this stage, given the choice of conventional or organic, I'm always choosing organic, given the choice of organic or wild, wild is even better as the soil would most likely be far more nutrient rich.

There is no logical reason for GM to be a health risk and pesticide residues are easily measured and maintained at safe levels.

Nutrient rich just means you have to eat less to get the required daily amounts, it won't make you healthier compared to a farmed alternative.

jh79

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/organic-food/art-20043880?pg=2

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

Nutrient rich just means you have to eat less to get the required daily amounts, it won't make you healthier compared to a farmed alternative.

Unless you don't eat enough of it .... which is becoming a trend

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/organic-food/art-20043880?pg=2

Environment. Some people buy organic food for environmental reasons. Organic farming practices are designed to benefit the environment by reducing pollution and conserving water and soil quality.

Besides all the talk about it being healthier ... The above reason would be sufficient enough for me to eat organic

weisses

jh79 wrote: »

http://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-living/nutrition-and-healthy-eating/in-depth/organic-food/art-20043880?pg=2

Contradicted here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danielle-nierenberg/is-organic-food-better-fo_b_5787374.html

jh79

weisses wrote: »

Contradicted here

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/danielle-nierenberg/is-organic-food-better-fo_b_5787374.html

Huff post is a known pseudoscience promoting website so i'll take their spin on the paper with a pinch of salt.

Think it was debunked on the Primetime special also.

First impression is the amounts could easily be just natural variation and not significant enough to impact diet. Saying something is three times more sounds impressive but if the figure is 0.001% of your rda then it has no health implications. I'm suspicious that they have not given % rda's in the article.

The difference in the levels of pesticide s is irrelevant if they are below safety threshold.