The 11 "beautiful" girls on The Saturday Night Show Last Night.

One eyed Jack

Shenshen wrote: »

To maybe offer a slightly different perspective on this:

At the moment, the most common size in the UK is size 16 (and yes, on a 165cm person like me, that's morbidly obese). I couldn't find numbers for Ireland, but I suspect they won't be all that far off. Maybe 14.
These sizes are called plus.
So to claim that this is "not normal" would have to be more than a little tongue in cheek. It may not be healthy, it may not be attractive to some people, but it most certainly has become normal at this point.

The mainstream fashion industry still shows its creation on models in sizes 8 and under.
So the mainstream fashion industry is not catering to the majority of their potential customers.

A slightly different perspective again - Not too many girls want to be 'just normal', and this is not society placing expectations on them, this is them placing expectations on themselves, so not too many girls/women actually want to be overweight.

It has never been the intention of the mainstream fashion industry to sell clothes to fit normal women. Those clothes just don't sell. In order to maximize profit (which is what the mainstream fashion industry and high street retailers are actually interested in) they have to sell clothes that women want.

Just off the top of your head, how many women do you know are a size 18, that don't actually want a size 8? They're happy to be a size 18?

I can count in the hundreds the number of women (I'm not even counting young girls) who will rather shrink to fit, than actually want to buy the clothes that fit, or even flatter their figure.

The mainstream fashion industry doesn't care about the tiny minority of women that are happy to be overweight. They're in the business of making money, not accommodating people or being socially conscious.

The models in question - makeup and fake tan aside - are reflecting the most common shapes of the women who will want to buy the clothes.
So why would this decision by objectionable?
They're not role models, they're simply responding to an existing situation.

If these models in question were actually reflecting the most common shapes of women that want to buy clothes for their size, would these women actually be the novelty they are? Would they be getting as much publicity as they are? Mainstream fashion would have noticed these trends long before these women ever saw what they thought was an opportunity, and they would be capitalising on it already, but they don't, because these women that want to buy clothes for their size are only in a tiny, tiny minority, not nearly enough to mass produce clothing and styles that there would be any serious profit to be made from it.

From my perspective, the only situation these modelling agencies are responding to is one where they see a gap in the market, a very niche market, and they're trying to wedge it wide open to say that these women who are happy to be overweight, are representative of 45% of women. Are they? Really?

These modelling agencies are trying to create a market for themselves, where one doesn't exist. They're not concerned with being socially conscious either. They too are just as much in the business of maximising profit off the back of feeding into women's insecurities about themselves.

And to all the people who don't want there to be plus size models or plus size clothes as this might create negative role models - would you honestly prefer to see those ladies walk around in the nip? Really?

I hummed and hawed about answering this, but then I figured fcuk it, just be truthful, and the truth is... I'd only love to see all the Sophie Dahl's (pre-weight loss) strutting around in the nip, I'd be delighted to see rows and rows of little buddhas and oompa loompas with the big smiley faces and seeing them have the confidence to pull it off. I'd think I died and went to heaven.

But y'know what?

The vast, vast majority in society would retch at the idea, and women themselves would retch at the idea, because nobody really wants to see that, and nobody (not too many, you get the point) wants to actually be like that. Because it isn't healthy and it isn't attractive to the vast majority of people who fall within the norm, but aspire to be better than the norm.

That's why extremes like this are usually seen as the novelty they are, and they fade away just as quickly as they burst into the public gaze.

OldNotWIse

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but I don't think being entitled to be fat will ever be an issue of gender equality, especially when women themselves are much harder on themselves and more competitive among themselves than men will ever be either as critical of women or even as critical of each other among themselves.

I mean, just look at the sheer volume of women's magazines that promote celebrity diets and so on, cosmetics and cosmetic surgery advertisements. I just don't think (and I may be taken outside and shot for this), but I just don't think men are made to feel as insecure as women with regard to their physical appearance (it's on the rise certainly, but it's nowhere near the same level yet).

I think men can be insecure and competitive in other ways alright, but women are defined absolutely by their physical appearance and their ability to maintain their physical appearance

I just think any sort of ideas that suggest they should be entitled to be seen as women who just happen to be, well, anything really other than what they feel is "physical perfection", just because men aren't so concerned with their physical appearance, I just don't know if that's an idea that's ever going to gain any traction tbh.

For what it is worth, as a woman, any pressure I have ever felt to be thinner has come from women. In fact, I find when men are giving me their honest opinion about my weight (be it exes, or close male friends) they have generally admitted that they like a bit more. I wouldn't be anywhere near the size of these women, but am certainly no stick insect. Still, womens magazines, media, friends etc - all the focus is constantly on losing weight, losing that extra kilo - most guys I know actually kind of like the last kilo. This insane pressure to be super thin comes only from women - we do not have the right to play the gender card and blame men.

Shenshen

Babooshka wrote: »

Back to the women on the B O'C show - I do find what the woman being interviewed on the show said something that I do think makes perfect sense, which was that her goal was to motivate the women by first and foremost taking pride in their appearance, getting out there and social and being a part of the world, in the hopes that this will continue motivating them to live a healthy lifestyle, therefore encouraging them to exercise, eat healthy and improve their entire lives on a holistic level...so she wasn't, as some people are suggesting in the thread, advocating an unhealthy lifestyle and "expecting" people to find fat people attractive, she is just working on their self esteem outwardly, her attitude is, why should they have to start by hiding themselves away at home before working on themselves when they can do it all at once...and in that sense, I think more power to them.

I would agree to that sentiment 100%.
There seems to be a notion around that what fat people need is to be treated badly, isolated, excluded and shamed and insulted in order to make them do something about their weight. I doubt that that's a very productive approach.

Personally, I had to feel good about myself, develop a certain level of confidence and feeling of self-worth before I could begin tackling my weight. I am now, but as someone pointed out, it takes all the optimism you can muster sticking to it, as it is a slow process. And depending where you start from, it can take years to come down to healthy levels.

Babooshka

OldNotWIse wrote: »

For what it is worth, as a woman, any pressure I have ever felt to be thinner has come from women. In fact, I find when men are giving me their honest opinion about my weight (be it exes, or close male friends) they have generally admitted that they like a bit more. I wouldn't be anywhere near the size of these women, but am certainly no stick insect. Still, womens magazines, media, friends etc - all the focus is constantly on losing weight, losing that extra kilo - most guys I know actually kind of like the last kilo. This insane pressure to be super thin comes only from women - we do not have the right to play the gender card and blame men.

Yes, but OldNotWise...and this is a question for you...would you not say then, that it stems from your own ego (or our own egos I mean, as I am asking in a broad concept not you personally) Are we entering ourselves into a competition with these women you're talking about who put pressure on us to be thin? If you feel the pressure then it possibly is because you care too much to be better than...to compete as it were?

It's up to an individual to decide if they're happy in their own skin or if they're going to get involved in all that comparing yourself to others type stuff, is all I am getting at. As a female I spent most of my own life doing it, until the last few years. In my 40's now, so just feel happier where I am. I did do it though, drove myself to distraction, then realised I was comparing myself to women 20 years younger than me and thought "what the hell am I doing here...and I am doing this myself, no one is forcing me to do it. Oh f*ck this....look a squirrel!".... You can decide not to do it any more, if you decide your focus is going to be on enjoying the rest of your life as the healthiest happiest you, that you can be, and stop comparing yourself to others. This is where the pressure comes from IMO, not other women (or men for that matter) It's about taking responsibility for yourself. Mainstream media don't make it easy, fashion industry doesn't make it easy, but when it comes to accepting yourself, it really is down to you to say "f*ck the rest of the world, I'm minding me and I'm happy with me", Rant over, sorry.

Shenshen

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I can count in the hundreds the number of women (I'm not even counting young girls) who will rather shrink to fit, than actually want to buy the clothes that fit, or even flatter their figure.

If that is the case and the vast majority of women will actually think nothing of starving themselves to fit into a size 6, how come the most common dress size sold is size 16?

If these models in question were actually reflecting the most common shapes of women that want to buy clothes for their size, would these women actually be the novelty they are? Would they be getting as much publicity as they are? Mainstream fashion would have noticed these trends long before these women ever saw what they thought was an opportunity, and they would be capitalising on it already, but they don't, because these women that want to buy clothes for their size are only in a tiny, tiny minority, not nearly enough to mass produce clothing and styles that there would be any serious profit to be made from it.

Evans has been around for over 40 years. Ann Harvey has been around for over 30 years. Debenhams have had their plus size collections for I don't know how long. Ulla Popken has been in business for plus size sine 1984.

It is by no means a small niche market, and hasn't been for decades. Those trends have been noticed a long time ago, and there are plenty of companies now catering for them.

What is new is that they are now getting attention, as society is focusing more and more on obesity. So now these models are big news, whereas in the 80s they wouldn't have been.

OldNotWIse

Babooshka wrote: »

Yes, but OldNotWise...and this is a question for you...would you not say then, that it stems from your own ego (or our own egos I mean, as I am asking in a broad concept not you personally) Are we entering ourselves into a competition with these women you're talking about who put pressure on us to be thin? If you feel the pressure then it possibly is because you care too much to be better than...to compete as it were?

It's up to an individual to decide if they're happy in their own skin or if they're going to get involved in all that comparing yourself to others type stuff, is all I am getting at. As a female I spent most of my own life doing it, until the last few years. In my 40's now, so just feel happier where I am. I did do it though, drove myself to distraction, then realised I was comparing myself to women 20 years younger than me and thought "what the hell am I doing here...and I am doing this myself, no one is forcing me to do it. Oh f*ck this....look a squirrel!".... You can decide not to do it any more, if you decide your focus is going to be on enjoying the rest of your life as the healthiest happiest you, that you can be, and stop comparing yourself to others. This is where the pressure comes from IMO, not other women (or men for that matter) It's about taking responsibility for yourself. Mainstream media don't make it easy, fashion industry doesn't make it easy, but when it comes to accepting yourself, it really is down to you to say "f*ck the rest of the world, I'm minding me and I'm happy with me", Rant over, sorry.

I dont actually spend my time worrying about my weight or tyring to be thinner. If I feel happy in myself, then that's good enough. I'm 5 ft 9 and a size 12. Occasionally slip into size 14 area - nothing a bit of swimming wont sort our. But you'd have to be living under a rock not to be at least aware of the pressure there to be thinner. Whether you buy into it or not is your own business.


To be honest, I think its a little too simplistic to say if you are insecure about your body that all comes from within. There is an absolute obsession with thinness operating in our society, and girls are picking up on this younger and younger all the time. Perhaps it's not only the media either though. It could be both - insecurity and media?

Potatoeman

OldNotWIse wrote: »

For what it is worth, as a woman, any pressure I have ever felt to be thinner has come from women. In fact, I find when men are giving me their honest opinion about my weight (be it exes, or close male friends) they have generally admitted that they like a bit more. I wouldn't be anywhere near the size of these women, but am certainly no stick insect. Still, womens magazines, media, friends etc - all the focus is constantly on losing weight, losing that extra kilo - most guys I know actually kind of like the last kilo. This insane pressure to be super thin comes only from women - we do not have the right to play the gender card and blame men.

This is very true. Most men dont want a size 0 woman with the body of a boy. At the same time curves does not mean overweight.

Shenshen

OldNotWIse wrote: »

To be honest, I think its a little too simplistic to say if you are insecure about your body that all comes from within. There is an absolute obsession with thinness operating in our society, and girls are picking up on this younger and younger all the time. Perhaps it's not only the media either though. It could be both - insecurity and media?

I think nobody exists in isolation.
Your image of yourself will always be based on both your own attitude and feedback from your environment. The balance of these would be different from individual to individual.
But I would say that the younger you are, the more you rely on this external feedback, and the older you get and the more experiences you gather the more you can balance it off.

Babooshka

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I dont actually spend my time worrying about my weight or tyring to be thinner. If I feel happy in myself, then that's good enough. I'm 5 ft 9 and a size 12. Occasionally slip into size 14 area - nothing a bit of swimming wont sort our. But you'd have to be living under a rock not to be at least aware of the pressure there to be thinner. Whether you buy into it or not is your own business.


To be honest, I think its a little too simplistic to say if you are insecure about your body that all comes from within. There is an absolute obsession with thinness operating in our society, and girls are picking up on this younger and younger all the time. Perhaps it's not only the media either though. It could be both - insecurity and media?

I completely agree with what you're saying. As a naturally thin girl when I was in my 20's, but not happy enough with being a size 8 (because of pressure I felt from an ex boyfriend about my weight to be honest) I starved myself to hover between an Irish size 4 / 6. I worried my family to death and back, and worked through it and am back to my own healthy weight (for me) again. So I do understand and know all about the pressure to conform which comes from without. It was only when I drew from what was within me though, that I beat it. It was labelled an eating disorder, but I lived through it and it has now passed, I was lucky it didn't slip down to as bad as some women get. I live quite easily with and love my food now. I am not saying that there isn't pressure out there and wasn't disagreeing with you, I just wanted to point out that there does come a time where you can go "enough is enough!", that's all.

Penny Tration

Potatoeman wrote: »

This is very true. Most men dont want a size 0 woman with the body of a boy. At the same time curves does not mean overweight.

Many women are naturally a size 4 (or 0,in American sizing). Saying that they have the body of a boy is nasty. Plenty of men find tiny, petite women attractive.

smash

Potatoeman wrote: »

This is very true. Most men dont want a size 0 woman with the body of a boy.

To be honest, this statement is just as bad as the whole "This is what a real woman looks like" crap.

Potatoeman

green_screen wrote: »

Many women are naturally a size 4 (or 0,in American sizing). Saying that they have the body of a boy is nasty. Plenty of men find tiny, petite women attractive.

Im refering to the malnurished look.

smash

Potatoeman wrote: »

Im refering to the malnurished look.

Associating malnourished with size zero is the same as associating a size 12 with obesity.

One eyed Jack

Shenshen wrote: »

If that is the case and the vast majority of women will actually think nothing of starving themselves to fit into a size 6, how come the most common dress size sold is size 16?

I wouldn't say they think nothing of it, as many women will make a good attempt at it. It's an ideal they aspire to which is thrust upon them from the moment they wake up in the morning until they go to bed at night, but most women aren't models, and they have stuff going on in their lives that often takes priority over any ideas about weight loss. It doesn't mean they don't constantly think about it, it just means they don't have as much free time to act on it as someone whose livelihood is based on maintaining their physical appearance.

They wish they could look that amazing in that YSL dress, but they still need to dress themselves in practical everyday clothes that are more affordable. That means mass market clothing that they can at least accessorise to wear it to it's best effect.

Evans has been around for over 40 years. Ann Harvey has been around for over 30 years. Debenhams have had their plus size collections for I don't know how long. Ulla Popken has been in business for plus size sine 1984.

Evans, Ann Harvey and Debenhams (never heard of Ulla Popken) are hardly the height of high fashion. They're more like boutique shops in comparison to multi-national high street retailers. They sell clothes that are more functional than stylish (online retailers like simplybe are doing the very same, but they'll never be something women aspire to). They fulfil a need for a minority, because the vast majority in society will wear what they need, while wanting to wear clothes they see in the high street retailers, in magazines, on television, in film, etc.

They want to look more like Scarlett Johansson, and less like Roseanne Barr.

It is by no means a small niche market, and hasn't been for decades. Those trends have been noticed a long time ago, and there are plenty of companies now catering for them.

What is new is that they are now getting attention, as society is focusing more and more on obesity. So now these models are big news, whereas in the 80s they wouldn't have been.

It's a niche market in comparison to the whole market, just like women I've known that lament have to shop for their clothes in the children's department because they're that petite. They don't get to wear mainstream fashion either, because they're a size 6, but they're also sub-five footers. If there were indeed plenty of companies catering for them as you're suggesting, then those women on the BOC show wouldn't be the novelty they are. They wouldn't have gotten so much as a second glance, never mind a double take!

They're getting attention because society is now focussing more on obesity, but society isn't focusing on obesity in a positive way or a way that celebrates obesity, and not even if they had 500 obwese women on stage that night, would they manage to convince anyone that they should accommodate or accept obesity as anything other than abnormal.

BBWs have been around since, well, the beginning of time really, but only in the last few decades are they celebrated as a sub-culture, and to think they'll ever be accepted as anything other than titillating, let alone to be accepted as normal, I personally anyway think that's just the stuff of wet dreams and insidious marketing executives who see an opportunity to make a fast buck from exploiting people's insecurities.

Dan_Solo

Wouldn't watch that shoite show for a start.
My opinion is that fat women have every right to parade about on idiotic TV shows, just as I have the right to not watch them and not want to go near them*.

* in, like, that sort of way.

AudreyHepburn

At the end of the day we women are not meant to be emaciated. We're meant to have curves, there are actual biological reasons why we have breasts, larger pelvic areas and wider hips i.e. birthing and nourishing babies.

Dan_Solo

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

At the end of the day we women are not meant to be emaciated.

I know it says more about me than anything, but I was 100% sure you said "emancipated" there on the first read...

denhaagenite

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

At the end of the day we women are not meant to be emaciated. We're meant to have curves, there are actual biological reasons why we have breasts, larger pelvic areas and wider hips i.e. birthing and nourishing babies.

Yes but the curvy bits should be breasts, hips and arses, not rolls of fat around the waist.

Dan_Solo

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

At the end of the day we women are not meant to be emaciated. We're meant to have curves, there are actual biological reasons why we have breasts, larger pelvic areas and wider hips i.e. birthing and nourishing babies.

I don't see anybody here actually denying this though. There's still a healthy and attractive weight range for men and women (with regards to most of the opposite sex).

Generic Dreadhead

Well as a red-blooded Male, I just turn up in these threads from time to time to scroll through all the pages and look for the posts that have the most "Thanks", then I leave after I've had a good chuckle. And then finally I'll add an emotive smiley (or several) which will make people consider the rest of my post to be read-worthy, but in reality they have been duped.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

OldNotWIse

denhaagenite wrote: »

Yes but the curvy bits should be breasts, hips and arses, not rolls of fat around the waist.

OldNotWIse

green_screen wrote: »

Many women are naturally a size 4 (or 0,in American sizing). Saying that they have the body of a boy is nasty. Plenty of men find tiny, petite women attractive.

Some women naturally have what is frequently referred to by the media and by people who put themselves out there are slimming specialists as "boyish figures" - it's not an insult it's just a term, albeit not a scientific one. The same as they might refer to someone as "pear shaped" or whatever. It just means that perhaps they dont have pronounced curves/large breasts or whatever. But, "naturally" is the operative word. If someone is naturally like that what's the issue? However someone who is naturally a size 12 and starves themselves to a size 4 is not going to look healthy. I would love to be petite but I'm not. In reality there is a six year old girl inside me still hurt by the ballet teacher who refused her admission to her class because she was "too tall" and the mouthy ignorant friends of my mother who commented on "how big she is for her age" whenever they saw me. In fact, this has sparked a nerve with me now - I have a major gripe with people who feel they have the right to comment on someone else's size because they are tall, yet the same people wouldnt dare comment on someone who is short. Same way they wouldnt call a fat person fat but they think its ok to call a skinny person skinny

In fact, I wish everyone would just STFU

......goes off to buy chocolate...and heels :P

denhaagenite

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I have a major gripe with people who feel they have the right to comment on someone else's size because they are tall, yet the same people wouldnt dare comment on someone who is short. Same way they wouldnt call a fat person fat but they think its ok to call a skinny person skinny

That's the most ridiculous thing- while people generally have complete control over their weight they have no control whatsoever over their height!!

Penny Tration

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Some women naturally have what is frequently referred to by the media and by people who put themselves out there are slimming specialists as "boyish figures" - it's not an insult it's just a term, albeit not a scientific one. The same as they might refer to someone as "pear shaped" or whatever. It just means that perhaps they dont have pronounced curves/large breasts or whatever. But, "naturally" is the operative word. If someone is naturally like that what's the issue? However someone who is naturally a size 12 and starves themselves to a size 4 is not going to look healthy. I would love to be petite but I'm not. In reality there is a six year old girl inside me still hurt by the ballet teacher who refused her admission to her class because she was "too tall" and the mouthy ignorant friends of my mother who commented on "how big she is for her age" whenever they saw me. In fact, this has sparked a nerve with me now - I have a major gripe with people who feel they have the right to comment on someone else's size because they are tall, yet the same people wouldnt dare comment on someone who is short. Same way they wouldnt call a fat person fat but they think its ok to call a skinny person skinny

In fact, I wish everyone would just STFU

......goes off to buy chocolate...and heels :P

There's a difference between saying somebody has a boyish figure, and someone has the body of a boy.

Generic Dreadhead

green_screen wrote: »

There's a difference between saying somebody has a boyish figure, and someone has the body of a boy.

If I had a cent for everytime someone on AH began a post with "There's a difference between..." I could stop working

Lux23

I don't get why people are so offended by other people's bodies. So you don't fancy fat girls? Fair enough, nobody is forcing you to. And what is so wrong with a fat person being happy with the way they look? As someone who struggles with their weight every day of their life, I really wish I could be happy being fat. I really do.

kjl

The most off putting part of the show was Jedward lipsyncing to their new song ferocious

osarusan

green_screen wrote: »

Many women are naturally a size 4 (or 0,in American sizing). Saying that they have the body of a boy is nasty. Plenty of men find tiny, petite women attractive.

smash wrote: »

Associating malnourished with size zero is the same as associating a size 12 with obesity.

I have to say, when I read the post that both of you are replying to, my interpretation was that size 0 just meant really skinny and bony, as opposed to actually meaning size 0 American.

OldNotWIse

green_screen wrote: »

There's a difference between saying somebody has a boyish figure, and someone has the body of a boy.

I think the meaning is the same, the difference perhaps is tact. I doubt they are implying they have male plumbing or anything, though I agree it's not the nicest way of putting it.

denhaagenite

Lux23 wrote: »

I don't get why people are so offended by other people's bodies. So you don't fancy fat girls? Fair enough, nobody is forcing you to. And what is so wrong with a fat person being happy with the way they look? As someone who struggles with their weight every day of their life, I really wish I could be happy being fat. I really do.

I'm not offended by anyone's body, I'm offended when someone tells me they're happy with the way they look, then in the same breath tells me their decision to get a gastric band is a better health choice than my decision to maintain a healthy weight with a balanced diet and some exercise. I do understand that weight loss is a struggle, but having lost around 15 - 20 kilos over the last 2 years I can tell you that it's not impossible and I get a bigger kick out of the fact that I'm in control than I would about being fancied by more people.