The Official Ryder Cup 2014 Thread - No betting talk

cack_handed

A.Partridge wrote: »

Yes, a great article. Particularly this bit...


It was only the latest in a series of perplexing decisions by Watson that almost seemed designed to handicap his team. It began the day before he made his captain's picks, when, as the Golf Channel's Jason Sobel reported, he told those close to the process that his final pick was a player other than Webb Simpson (Sobel didn't name the third player). Early the next morning -- as in, 4:30 am early -- Webb Simpson texted Watson in a desperate last minute campaign to earn a place on the team. Watson texted back, and then the two spoke on the phone. Simpson sold himself, and it worked -- Watson changed his mind, Simpson made the team, and the previous pick was out. The impulse decision (this week, Watson has endlessly referred to making decisions with his "gut") backfired almost immediately, when Simpson went out in the Ryder Cup's first match with Bubba Watson -- a move that was hard not to read as the captain trying to justify his pick immediately -- and imploded. He didn't make a single birdie, and things got so bad that he began taking five or six practice swings before every shot. Bubba did his best, but Justin Rose and Henrik Stenson blew them out, 5&4. After Simpson's miserable performance, there was no question of playing him again before Sunday.

Simpson spoke about all that at one of his press conferences before play started, incredible stuff really
Best guess is that Chris Kirk was the guy who lost out, he'd just won on tour the day before Watson's announcement. Hard to know how Kirk would have fared, but would not have done worse than simpson surely

TrapperChamonix

SSK wrote: »

A few interesting points made in this article on McGinley's captaincy in this in depth article and further issues about Watson's captaincy raised. It really isn't difficult to imagine a situation where if the captaincy's were swapped that the US would have taken home the trophy.

Far easier swapping the players and imagining US winning the trophy.

So much lazy reporting in that article, lets just pick on one,
"The impulse decision (this week, Watson has endlessly referred to making decisions with his "gut") backfired almost immediately, when Simpson went out in the Ryder Cup's first match with Bubba Watson -- a move that was hard not to read as the captain trying to justify his pick immediately -- and imploded. He didn't make a single birdie, and things got so bad that he began taking five or six practice swings before every shot. Bubba did his best, but Justin Rose and Henrik Stenson blew them out, 5&4. After Simpson's miserable performance, there was no question of playing him again before Sunday."

In no particular order;
"a captain trying to justify his pick immediately": you can argue with the selection of Simpson based on past exploits but the perception was that it was difficult to get a partner to play with Bubba and that their record in the last RC fourballs was reason enough to pick him. However, once picked it would have been madness not to have picked them to play in the 1st 4ball match.
"Bubba did his best...... Simpson didn't make a single birdie" : lets look at the scores on the 1st day's fore-balls.

http://www.rydercup.com/usa/scoring/scorecards/33393


So Simpson was crap cause he scored no birdies, but Bubba was ok cause he scored no birdies? 2 down after 8, Bubba fails to record a score on the card for the rest of the round.
In hindsight, Simpson was a bad call, but he scored 1/2 point more than one of the European picks.

Speaking of Bubba why does Bubba get off scot free. Highest ranked US player, Masters champion, he's notoriously difficult to get a partner to play with (seems a familiar refrain in the US team over the years), he plays crap on Friday morning, plays very well on Sat and on Sunday he is absolutely, and I mean absolutely abysmal. A front 9 of 39. 4 holes in and Kaymer has gone 2 up due to bogies on hole 3 & 4 by Bubba. You wouldn't get that in a Fred Daly competition.

rrpc

DeanAustin wrote: »

And they needed a minder for that?

Well I think the use of the word 'minder' is perhaps a little dismissive. I would suggest 'independent observer' as being a more accurate description.

The fact that it worked and that the non-playing guys came in to their matches well warmed up and used to each other seemed to help or at least may have contributed to the 7-1 drubbing the USA got in the foursomes.

cack_handed

TrapperChamonix wrote: »

Far easier swapping the players and imagining US winning the trophy.

So much lazy reporting in that article, lets just pick on one,
"The impulse decision (this week, Watson has endlessly referred to making decisions with his "gut") backfired almost immediately, when Simpson went out in the Ryder Cup's first match with Bubba Watson -- a move that was hard not to read as the captain trying to justify his pick immediately -- and imploded. He didn't make a single birdie, and things got so bad that he began taking five or six practice swings before every shot. Bubba did his best, but Justin Rose and Henrik Stenson blew them out, 5&4. After Simpson's miserable performance, there was no question of playing him again before Sunday."

In no particular order;
"a captain trying to justify his pick immediately": you can argue with the selection of Simpson based on past exploits but the perception was that it was difficult to get a partner to play with Bubba and that their record in the last RC fourballs was reason enough to pick him. However, once picked it would have been madness not to have picked them to play in the 1st 4ball match.
"Bubba did his best...... Simpson didn't make a single birdie" : lets look at the scores on the 1st day's fore-balls.

http://www.rydercup.com/usa/scoring/scorecards/33393


So Simpson was crap cause he scored no birdies, but Bubba was ok cause he scored no birdies? 2 down after 8, Bubba fails to record a score on the card for the rest of the round.
In hindsight, Simpson was a bad call, but he scored 1/2 point more than one of the European picks.

Speaking of Bubba why does Bubba get off scot free. Highest ranked US player, Masters champion, he's notoriously difficult to get a partner to play with (seems a familiar refrain in the US team over the years), he plays crap on Friday morning, plays very well on Sat and on Sunday he is absolutely, and I mean absolutely abysmal. A front 9 of 39. 4 holes in and Kaymer has gone 2 up due to bogies on hole 3 & 4 by Bubba. You wouldn't get that in a Fred Daly competition.

Havent got round to reading the full article yet, but I think the Simpson thing is hugely relevant on many different levels. It begs the question why Watson was so resolute and stubborn about Phil's text message, given he had allowed himself to be so easily swayed by Simpson's text when picking his wildcards.

Quite apart from how Simpson performed, it poses a huge question mark over how Watson's thought processes were working. Having already leaked a different name, Watson told Simpson he was in the team after his phone call, then proceeded to give a different version to the media, basically that he had chosen Simpson after wading through a file of statistics the PGA had given him, giving the impression Watson himself had come to the decision without any external influence. It's just all very odd and I can't explain exactly what Watson's thinking was here....just seems very confused

Thoroughly agree with you on Bubba though, the crying at the closing ceremony made me cringe! I also think a captain looking outside the comfort zone would have thought twice about bringing Hunter Mahan

rrpc

cack_handed wrote: »

Havent got round to reading the full article yet, but I think the Simpson thing is hugely relevant on many different levels. It begs the question why Watson was so resolute and stubborn about Phil's text message, given he had allowed himself to be so easily swayed by Simpson's text when picking his wildcards.

I have no evidence for this beyond putting two and two together, but I suspect that Mickelson put a lot of pressure on Watson to play him on Friday afternoon (I get this from the surprise Spieth expressed at not being played that afternoon) and that the original plan was to rest him on Friday afternoon and play again on Saturday in the fourballs.

After the rout of the Friday foursomes, Watson then dropped Mickelson in favour of the two rookies for the entire Saturday and hence the shrillness of Phil's pleas and subsequent carefully calculated demolition of Watson at the press conference.

cack_handed

rrpc wrote: »

I have no evidence for this beyond putting two and two together, but I suspect that Mickelson put a lot of pressure on Watson to play him on Friday afternoon (I get this from the surprise Spieth expressed at not being played that afternoon) and that the original plan was to rest him on Friday afternoon and play again on Saturday in the fourballs.

After the rout of the Friday foursomes, Watson then dropped Mickelson in favour of the two rookies for the entire Saturday and hence the shrillness of Phil's pleas and subsequent carefully calculated demolition of Watson at the press conference.

I suspect you're close to the truth there. You can be sure it will all come out in the wash eventually, the inside story in these cases tends to emerge in dribs and drabs. I have little doubt the version Phil gave at the press conference is far from the full picture

rrpc

cack_handed wrote: »

I suspect you're close to the truth there. You can be sure it will all come out in the wash eventually, the inside story in these cases tends to emerge in dribs and drabs. I have little doubt the version Phil gave at the press conference is far from the full picture

According to journalists who were at that pc, this was not an impromptu off-the-cuff response to a question. The body language from Phil screamed "Ask me a question" whereas the others were trying their damndest to be as invisible as possible.

I doubt there was any question that Phil could have been asked that wouldn't have elicited the same response.

Whether or not 'The God squad' aka Watson and Simpson should have played together or not is almost irrelevant to the tumult that must have been evident in the camp as early as Friday afternoon.

cack_handed

rrpc wrote: »

According to journalists who were at that pc, this was not an impromptu off-the-cuff response to a question. The body language from Phil screamed "Ask me a question" whereas the others were trying their damndest to be as invisible as possible.

I doubt there was any question that Phil could have been asked that wouldn't have elicited the same response.

Whether or not 'The God squad' aka Watson and Simpson should have played together or not is almost irrelevant to the tumult that must have been evident in the camp as early as Friday afternoon.

The only thing is, though, that the friday afternoon pairings would have been decided when Phil and Brad were still out on the course, so I dont know how much pressure Phil could have applied. Of course, they could still be communicating on the course so it's still entirely possible - didn't Faldo famously approach Westwood on the 10th tee-box in 2008 to tell him he was being dropped for the next morning's matches?

rrpc

cack_handed wrote: »

The only thing is, though, that the friday afternoon pairings would have been decided when Phil and Brad were still out on the course, so I dont know how much pressure Phil could have applied. Of course, they could still be communicating on the course so it's still entirely possible - didn't Faldo famously approach Westwood on the 10th tee-box in 2008 to tell him he was being dropped for the next morning's matches?

It certainly happened very late because Spieth was ready to go out again.

“We were 100% certain we were going back out,” Spieth told golf reporter Stephanie Wei.


And NBC's Johnny Miller was pretty certain who should have played:

"The way that Reed and Spieth played, they should be playing this afternoon. Keegan Bradley and Phil Mickelson, they need a guide dog. [...] They’ve been all over the golf course, whereas Reed and Spieth shot six-under this morning, I think, the best of anybody.

“They have a lot of momentum. They’re young. Mickelson’s going to be tired, I think. Even though [Bradley and Mickelson] haven’t lost as a pairing, I still think Reed and Spieth were a better choice.”

cack_handed

I'd give it a week until one of the US golf writers, maybe one of the Sports Illustrated guys, has pieced the whole thing together and I'd guess it will present an ugly but fascinating picture. Obviously there must have been a fair bit of too-ing and fro-ing while the fourballs were still being played on friday morning. I'd find it odd that Watson would have guaranteed a rookie pairing a place in both fourball and foursomes, but anything seems possible at the same time. Trouble is when you have captains and vice captains you run the risk of lines of communication becoming blurred and I think that may have been part of Watson's downfall last week

fullstop

RikkFlair wrote: »

I'm amazed Mickelson had to text his captain, surely taking him aside after/before a team meeting is how it should have been done.

Just shows the togetherness wasn't there. You need 12 players desperately wanting to win this thing, and I get the feeling there were a couple on team USA that didn't want it enough.

I'm not. Mickelson apparently didn't fly over to Scotland with the rest of the team, the only one to do so. Also, a friend sent me a picture he took on the range on Wednesday. All the USA team are practicing within a few yards of each other in front of the grandstand except Phil, who's halfway down the range and way off to the right all by himself. Hardly a big team player.

cack_handed

Quote:
Originally Posted by RikkFlair View Post
I'm amazed Mickelson had to text his captain, surely taking him aside after/before a team meeting is how it should have been done.

Just shows the togetherness wasn't there. You need 12 players desperately wanting to win this thing, and I get the feeling there were a couple on team USA that didn't want it enough.
I'm not. Mickelson apparently didn't fly over to Scotland with the rest of the team, the only one to do so. Also, a friend sent me a picture he took on the range on Wednesday. All the USA team are practicing within a few yards of each other in front of the grandstand except Phil, who's halfway down the range and way off to the right all by himself. Hardly a big team player.


Just to be fair to Mickelson, it wasnt just a text message. According to his own version, he had argued his case with Watson on a couple of occasions that day with no success. The text was a last desperate throw of the dice

abff

If I remember correctly, there was someone on this thread (or maybe another Ryder Cup thread) who kept on saying over and over again that the US would win and that one of the reasons (the first listed and presumably the most important) was that they had a better captain. When asked (more than once) to explain how they reached this conclusion, no answer was forthcoming.

I wonder if the individual in question would like to give a post event explanation of their reasoning?

Ardillaun

The Europeans seem to have a nice balance between caring about every match but also not giving into recrimination when things go wrong. Of course, the second attribute hasn't been tested too much of late. I think our players would have gone easy on McGinley if we had lost given the effort he put into it.

sullivlo

Saw this on Twitter this morning

http://m.espn.go.com/golf/story?storyId=11636089&src=desktop&rand=ref~%7B%22ref%22%3A%22http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2Fl4vnh65xS6%22%7D

Info on the Saturday night in the USA team room

Rikand

sullivlo wrote: »

Saw this on Twitter this morning

http://m.espn.go.com/golf/story?storyId=11636089&src=desktop&rand=ref~%7B%22ref%22%3A%22http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2Fl4vnh65xS6%22%7D

Info on the Saturday night in the USA team room

Glad to see that phil has become the hero in the end.

ankles

Watson is coming out really poorly. Mickelson seems to have taken a bullet for the team by calling Watson in public. Still not convinced it was appropriate but Watson really made some poor management calls both before and during the event

Tones69

I have post ryder cup depression ha

vienne86

sullivlo wrote: »

Saw this on Twitter this morning

http://m.espn.go.com/golf/story?storyId=11636089&src=desktop&rand=ref~%7B%22ref%22%3A%22http%3A%2F%2Ft.co%2Fl4vnh65xS6%22%7D

Info on the Saturday night in the USA team room

This is interesting - I was a bit shocked by Mickelson's comments after the Ryder Cup, as I have really been a fan of his.....he comes out of this very well. Watson really did screw up with some of his choices, and I must say that I was very disappointed in him.

rrpc

vienne86 wrote: »

This is interesting - I was a bit shocked by Mickelson's comments after the Ryder Cup, as I have really been a fan of his.....he comes out of this very well. Watson really did screw up with some of his choices, and I must say that I was very disappointed in him.

Although Phil seems to come out of this smelling better than Watson, I'd be inclined to the view that there seemed to have been a major clash of egos in the US camp. I doubt it was as late as Saturday night either, the indications seem to suggest that Phil wanted to be (and seemed to have been) involved in decisions as early as Friday.

I'm not sure any team can survive that kind of dynamic.

cack_handed

rrpc wrote: »

Although Phil seems to come out of this smelling better than Watson, I'd be inclined to the view that there seemed to have been a major clash of egos in the US camp. I doubt it was as late as Saturday night either, the indications seem to suggest that Phil wanted to be (and seemed to have been) involved in decisions as early as Friday.

I'm not sure any team can survive that kind of dynamic.

I tend to agree with you here, I dont think we learned anything much from the reported events of Saturday night. The die was already cast by then and a real post mortem of the US performance would have to back months before when the tone of the entire enterprise was set

And for what it's worth, I think Watson's apology is a fairly dignified way to bring the curtain down on what was an unhappy experience for all

Rikand

rrpc wrote: »

Although Phil seems to come out of this smelling better than Watson, I'd be inclined to the view that there seemed to have been a major clash of egos in the US camp. I doubt it was as late as Saturday night either, the indications seem to suggest that Phil wanted to be (and seemed to have been) involved in decisions as early as Friday.

I'm not sure any team can survive that kind of dynamic.

Man Management

if you have an ego like Phil, then as a manager, you give him the 'impression' that he#s being involved in the decision making process.

Watson failed in this regard and thus ultimately failed as team captain

GreeBo

Rikand wrote: »

Man Management

if you have an ego like Phil, then as a manager, you give him the 'impression' that he#s being involved in the decision making process.

Watson failed in this regard and thus ultimately failed as team captain

I think this is totally unfair, on Phil.
He is the most senior player on the team, ignoring his insight when he is far closer to the players than the captain is silly.
I'll bet Paul was getting opinions and advice from the senior players on the EU team.

Rikand

GreeBo wrote: »

I think this is totally unfair, on Phil.
He is the most senior player on the team, ignoring his insight when he is far closer to the players than the captain is silly.
I'll bet Paul was getting opinions and advice from the senior players on the EU team.

Maybe a little unfair on Phil, but Ultimately Watson wanted to do his own thing. If he had no intention of listening to Phil he should have at least pretended to listen to him to give him his voice and keep Phil happy

Since you've brought Paul into this

Graeme McDowell was telling Paul that he wanted to play more than 3 matches, but Paul got him into a discussion, showed him his vision for the team and got him involved in the decision making process, which ultimately was Paul's own decision.

Paul managed GMac.

Watson failed to manage Phil.


How I know that about Paul and Gmac - Gmac said as much in his post singles match victory over Spieth. A brilliant piece of Man-management from Paul, it has to be said!

Rikand

Actually, for any interview scripts you need, this is brilliant. I hadn't seen it before.

http://www.rydercup.com/europe/news/interview-transcripts

And below, two of the interview scripts from Gmac, one pre-singles match and post match

http://www.asaptext.com/pga/media/rydercup_2014/transcripts/graeme_mcdowell_2014_09_28_12_26.pdf

http://www.asaptext.com/pga/media/rydercup_2014/transcripts/graeme_mcdowell_2014_09_28_16_16.pdf

I actually attributed the comment above to his post singles match interview, it was actually his pre singles match interview, but the point still stands

rrpc

Rikand wrote: »

Maybe a little unfair on Phil, but Ultimately Watson wanted to do his own thing. If he had no intention of listening to Phil he should have at least pretended to listen to him to give him his voice and keep Phil happy

Since you've brought Paul into this

Graeme McDowell was telling Paul that he wanted to play more than 3 matches, but Paul got him into a discussion, showed him his vision for the team and got him involved in the decision making process, which ultimately was Paul's own decision.

Paul managed GMac.

Watson failed to manage Phil.


How I know that about Paul and Gmac - Gmac said as much in his post singles match victory over Spieth. A brilliant piece of Man-management from Paul, it has to be said!

The difference is that Watson was never going to be the kind of captain McGinley was. In fact that's apparently what the USPGA wanted and was a reaction to Davis Love's management style being considered to have 'been too close to the players'.

I think Watson did listen to Phil on Friday and played him in the foursomes when (according to Spieth and others) the plan was to play the best fourballs in the foursomes; which would have excluded Phil.

Once the decision making became blurred like that, it was only a matter of time before it all blew up. The fault is with both Watson and Mickelson imo, but primarily it lies with the USPGA for picking Watson in the first place. They seemed to learn nothing from the way Europe had made these decisions over the previous ten years and that's where it ultimately failed. Watson was too out of touch with the USA team, the Ryder Cup and the opposition.

cack_handed

Enjoyed this bit from Dermot Gilleece piece in indo yesterday on Phil goofing at the 1991 Walker Cup:


While describing a particularly wayward drive into rough during his 4 and 3 singles win over Andrew Coltart, he told ESPN: "That's not a place I wanted to be. The Irish women are not that attractive." In other words, getting close to female spectators at the fairway ropes wouldn't compensate for being buried in rough.

Remarkably, it led to something of a diplomatic incident, with irate phone calls to the Irish Consulate in New York. They, in turn, contacted USGA headquarters in New Jersey, demanding an apology. Which Mickelson was only too happy to provide, saying contritely: "I'm sorry. It was meant in jest."


And people say political correctness is a modern phenomenon!

TrapperChamonix

What I find interesting is that no one picked up on the fact that Watson and his VC's wore different kit to the US Players during the Opening ceremony and again (I think) at the closing. I noticed it at the time and could immediately see it as an obvious distancing the Captain from the team. It was "Old School". It was a statement that, I'm not your buddy, I'm not your friend. I'm your commander.
The whole premise of the appointment of Watson was that in the 2 previous US Ryder Cups, the players had more sympathetic Captains, Captains who where more in touch / in tune with the players, who sought feedback and communicated well to the team members. But ultimately these teams lost. Not by much but they lost.
So the PGA took a punt. They went with Watson on the basis that he would manage them exactly as he did. As Trip Eisenhour (Golf Channel) says, Watson did exactly what he expected him to do. He called out players for non performing and put pressure on others to perform. He used a form of management that's not that uncommon in US collegiate football. Goading players and putting pressure on them in the hope / belief that it would spark a reaction / a fightback. It did not work.
Ultimately Watson comes out of this badly (though I think he was right about be appalled that they were presenting him with a Ryder Cup replica while they were still fighting for the real thing) but the issue remains the US players. Even in the midst of all this on Saturday night, they were texting their chosen allies (Rosenfort etc) in the press, WHILE the match was still on.

For all the Pod systems and investing in the process etc, the thing Azinger did get right was to use the POD system to isolate Phil and Tiger from each other. Cause that's the real elephant in the room as to why the US have done so badly over the last 10 years.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/golf/rydercup/11122135/Ryder-Cup-opening-ceremony-was-a-mercifully-brief-affair-and-for-that-we-say-Thank-you.html

markie4

Tiger was injured/resting in 2008 and Azinger was lucky to be against a Faldo led team

TrapperChamonix

markie4 wrote: »

Tiger was injured/resting in 2008 and Azinger was lucky to be against a Faldo led team

My Bad.