The Official Ryder Cup 2014 Thread - No betting talk

cairny

gotapaininmy wrote: »

Ok I was generalising there, I don't think he disrespected Stenson but he did direspect the game imo. I play a lot of inter club golf so my equivalent of playing in the Ryder Cup would be playing in the All-Ireland Cups and Shields, would it be ok for me to shush the opposing crowd in this case? I don't think so. Would a fist pump be ok? Probably not in the best spirit of the game but excusable.

If playing a shield game at an away club one of the members made that comment as the quiet came for me to tee off I think I might shush them later on too.

Ok I probably wouldn't but only because I don't react at all either way when in match play not because it would be disrespectful.

gotapaininmy

First Up wrote: »

I think it was all in good spirit and carnival atmosphere. The gallery wasn't really booing him - just teasing him a bit for getting so worked up. Most people I saw were laughing. And that was the end of it.

It was very different at Brookline, where there was real animosity as well as some general heckling of the European players. I know a guy who is a member at Brookline (he was was a marshall on the Saturday) and he told me that the club was absolutely mortified at some of the behaviour that occurred on their premises. They are still living it down.

Yep I know a guy who caddies in Brookline, says a lot of the members are sad that it's associated with that Ryder Cup now forever more

cairny

gotapaininmy wrote: »

That's Chi Chi Rodriguez is it? I don't get the reference?

Could be argued the celebration is disrespectful to opponent....it's not though. Jimenez does it still, I wish I could carry it off.

gotapaininmy

cairny wrote: »

If playing a shield game at an away club one of the members made that comment as the quiet came for me to tee off I think I might shush them later on too.

Ok I probably wouldn't but only because I don't react at all either way when in match play not because it would be disrespectful.

I wouldn't react either way either but I was jsut trying to give some context and maybe explain how I see what he did was different to a fist pump.

cairny

gotapaininmy wrote: »

I wouldn't react either way either but I was jsut trying to give some context and maybe explain how I see what he did was different to a fist pump.

I get that, but in the context of the remark it's not that bad. Actually it's not that bad even without that context.

Match is played in a bear pit, crowd cheering missed putts and duffs, not regular tournament golf. We shouldn't be too precious I think.

SnowDrifts

Gotta love Donaldson's reply when asked had he taken it all in yet this morning.

https://vine.co/v/OZE266YQe52

Dr. Bre

USA hve to look again at how they pick players for the Ryder. the 2 current form players from the states - Horschel (2 wins recently) and Kirk not on the team while players like Zach and Simpson have been poor this year. I wonder if Watson would hve picked either Horschel Kirk if the decision was allowed to be left after the Fed ex play offs

gotapaininmy

Dr. Bre wrote: »

USA hve to look again at how they pick players for the Ryder. the 2 current form players from the states - Horschel (2 wins recently) and Kirk not on the team while players like Zach and Simpson have been poor this year. I wonder if Watson would hve picked either Horschel Kirk if the decision was allowed to be left after the Fed ex play offs

Equally if the European wildcards were left until later would Luiten and Casey have been in?

GreeBo

Very interesting interview with Harrington on the radio just there.
Basically, Phil is a born leader who all the US team look up to, the problem was between Phil and Tom and translated into unease within the team.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

Very interesting interview with Harrington on the radio just there.
Basically, Phil is a born leader who all the US team look up to, the problem was between Phil and Tom and translated into unease within the team.

That would sound as if Phil didn't really accept Watson's authority and that would have made it very hard for Watson if he was being second guessed or otherwise undermined. I had expected the atmosphere in the US camp to be better this time without Woods but seemingly not. You can apportion the blame any way you want but it was a distraction they didn't need.
Watson didn't come across as a happy bunny at any stage.

dar_cool

Didnt Phil fly over in his own jet also and met them at the airport? bit weird in itself, bloody millionaire golfers problems!!

First Up

dar_cool wrote: »

Didnt Phil fly over in his own jet also and met them at the airport? bit weird in itself, bloody millionaire golfers problems!!

The difference between the European camaraderie and American individualism has been talked about for so long that it is almost a cliche but it seems to be true nonetheless.

GreeBo

First Up wrote: »

That would sound as if Phil didn't really accept Watson's authority and that would have made it very hard for Watson if he was being second guessed or otherwise undermined. I had expected the atmosphere in the US camp to be better this time without Woods but seemingly not. You can apportion the blame any way you want but it was a distraction they didn't need.
Watson didn't come across as a happy bunny at any stage.

I think it was more that Watson didn't fit into the group rather than Phil did anything.

First Up

GreeBo wrote: »

I think it was more that Watson didn't fit into the group rather than Phil did anything.

Yes, could be that Phil felt it needed to be taken in hand when he saw how Watson was going about it. The generation gap between the players and Watson (and his V/Cs) was striking.
That said, as the senior player, Phil had some responsibility to try to build whatever bridges were needed. Maybe he tried - were don't know.
However the esteem from the Euro players for McGinley's work for almost two years tells a lot. I doubt Watson put in a fraction of that effort or thought.

stockdam

First Up wrote: »

Yes, could be that Phil felt it needed to be taken in hand when he saw how Watson was going about it. The generation gap between the players and Watson (and his V/Cs) was striking.
That said, as the senior player, Phil had some responsibility to try to build whatever bridges were needed. Maybe he tried - were don't know.
However the esteem from the Euro players for McGinley's work for almost two years tells a lot. I doubt Watson put in a fraction of that effort or thought.

There have been a lot of very good football managers in their 70s who seemed to get the most out of young players so age isn't really a factor.

All we hear about are snippets from the press and it's easy to form an opinion based on hearsay.

One thing is for sure though. The winning captain always "gets it right" whereas the loosing one gets pelters. In the end Watson's players let the team down. They didn't match the Europeans and I'd say that the effect of the captain is way overstated. All of the American team are very successful players who shouldn't blame anyone but themselves for their loss. Two of their youngest players went out first in the singles when they needed early points and that says a lot for the rest.

I saw a very motivated Spieth and Reed when they played together so if Watson did such a bad job then how come these two shone through; sounds like some of the others should look to how these two young players fought.

Mickelson moaned about not playing on Saturday but his form wasn't great. He was rightly put in mid-pack on Sunday behind Spieth, Reed, Fowler and Mahan and was lucky to be above Walker and Furyk who were also playing well. I think Watson's plan was to put out his form players first as there was little point holding anyone back to the tail.

First Up

stockdam wrote: »

There have been a lot of very good football managers in their 70s who seemed to get the most out of young players so age isn't really a factor.

All we hear about are snippets from the press and it's easy to form an opinion based on hearsay.

One thing is for sure though. The winning captain always "gets it right" whereas the loosing one gets pelters. In the end Watson's players let the team down. They didn't match the Europeans and I'd say that the effect of the captain is way overstated. All of the American team are very successful players who shouldn't blame anyone but themselves for their loss. Two of their youngest players went out first in the singles when they needed early points and that says a lot for the rest.

I saw a very motivated Spieth and Reed when they played together so if Watson did such a bad job then how come these two shone through; sounds like some of the others should look to how these two young players fought.


Mickelson moaned about not playing on Saturday but his form wasn't great. He was rightly put in mid-pack on Sunday behind Spieth, Reed, Fowler and Mahan and was lucky to be above Walker and Furyk who were also playing well. I think Watson's plan was to put out his form players first as there was little point holding anyone back to the tail.

Watson has defended his decisions and made no apologies for going on the form (and maybe attitudes) he saw. He campaigned to get the job and made it clear from the start he was going to take a tough line to end the US losing streak.
Problem is the game has changed a bit since he was last captain in 1993 and I heard it said he hadn't even been to one since. I don't think any players take kindly to that style or being told who they were playing with, without (a it is being reported) even asked for an opinion.
It looks a if Watson saw them as a bunch of pampered millionaires that needed a firm boss. I think that was an insult to them. I saw plenty of effort from the US players but the foursomes is what swung it and that needs chemistry. I don't think Watson had the formula and he didn't ask for help in finding it.

spacecoyote

reading a bit more about how thorough McGinley was. Didn't listen to it but I believe he went into it with the newstalk boys.

Months ago when gmac came back to play some European tour events he was manipulating the pairings to make sure he played some golf with dubuisson. All little things like that.

Seriously, fair play to the bloke. You can really see he's genuinely passionate about the event, which is what you need.

mickmackey1

Yes indeed, there's really no proof that the US victory in '08 had anything to do with 'pods'; it could just have been Faldo's bad captaincy.

Rikand

gotapaininmy wrote: »

Ok I was generalising there, I don't think he disrespected Stenson but he did direspect the game imo. I play a lot of inter club golf so my equivalent of playing in the Ryder Cup would be playing in the All-Ireland Cups and Shields, would it be ok for me to shush the opposing crowd in this case? I don't think so. Would a fist pump be ok? Probably not in the best spirit of the game but excusable.

I hope we dont end up playing against each other some day. I get very passionate about my interclub golf and I cheer/fist pump till the cows come home

stockdam

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Yes indeed, there's really no proof that the US victory in '08 had anything to do with 'pods'; it could just have been Faldo's bad captaincy.

Or maybe it was just that the Americans had the better players who performed over the Cup?

None of us really know whether Faldo was a good Captain or not. If you lose then people want to moan behind your back; if you won then you were a great Captain.

Are there any stories of how a Captain nearly lost the Cup due to poor management?

Personally I don't think the Captain does a lot. Yes he can help to generate good team spirit but it boils down to the players performing. If McGinley swapped with Watson I really doubt if it would have made much difference.

cairny

stockdam wrote: »

Or maybe it was just that the Americans had the better players who performed over the Cup?

None of us really know whether Faldo was a good Captain or not. If you lose then people want to moan behind your back; if you won then you were a great Captain.

Are there any stories of how a Captain nearly lost the Cup due to poor management?

Personally I don't think the Captain does a lot. Yes he can help to generate good team spirit but it boils down to the players performing. If McGinley swapped with Watson I really doubt if it would have made much difference.

I was involved in two club teams this year, One really well run one shambles, one was successful one wasn't.

I know it's worlds away but it's a scaled down version. Captains are quite important.

It's not true to say losing captains get panned, don't think there was much criticism of Love for example.

Raisins

stockdam wrote: »

Or maybe it was just that the Americans had the better players who performed over the Cup?

None of us really know whether Faldo was a good Captain or not. If you lose then people want to moan behind your back; if you won then you were a great Captain.

Are there any stories of how a Captain nearly lost the Cup due to poor management?

Personally I don't think the Captain does a lot. Yes he can help to generate good team spirit but it boils down to the players performing. If McGinley swapped with Watson I really doubt if it would have made much difference.

That's not true at all in this case the captain in the Ryder Cup is absolutely critical and not just because of motivation and team spirit etc but because he picks the team - both the wildcards and then on an ongoing basis over 3 days.

Watson was a terrible captain because he made so many poor choices. Anyone could see Speith and Reed were red hot and played 14 holes but he rested them. Worse than that he pounded players like Fowler into the ground instead of resting them. He made Webb a captains pick and dumped him straight away, by and large he replayed old pairings instead of coming up with new ones and couldn't react to player fatigue/form.

Nobody blasted Davis Love last time out. I agree there is some revisionism at times in sport but not always in the Ryder Cup with captains. Faldo was an embarrassment and not because he lost. Even had Olazbal not managed to recover to win at Medinah he would not have been destroyed in the media IMO.

Swap captains and USA win that ryder cup because McGinley was a brilliant captain and Watson was terrible. That's not based on the win it's based on their performance objectively.

Kharrell

Re: Phil's comments, there is a time and a place for making such a comments. That wasn't it, whether what he said was right or wrong in context, you just don't say something like that. He's an experienced professional who has been all over the world, won many Majors and tournaments, attended a lot of public events due to his status within the game, he should have been more media savvy than to fall into the trap. I could forgive him if he was in his early 20s or something like that, but that's not the case. Tom Watson is a legend in the game, he might well be out of touch with the modern golfer, but leave for behind closed doors. Take it up with the Ryder Cup panel, or at the very least, talk about it in public at a later date instead of making it a media circus focusing on his so called feud the media and many fans are lapping up as an excuse for their failure to beat the Europeans.

I honestly hope Azinger gets the job, the 'pod system' won't save him from the Europeans beating the US handily enough.. unless Faldo in some bizarro universe had a second crack at captaining the European side!

Just on the course itself. I have some experience in golf course design and have played Gleneagles in the past. It is a nice course, but it's not a spectacular course, and is certainly not a course to showcase Scottish golf. Sure, there is a some risk and reward holes, and to be fair, many of the holes are well framed in terms of spectator viewing. The par 3's, particularly the 17th was stunning looking due to the spectators, but when you think about it, how many holes will think back wow, I'd love to play that? Medinah had a number of brilliant holes, K Club has a few memorable holes, likewise The Belfry. Thankfully Hazeltine in 2016 is littered with fantastic holes throughout, especially on the back 9 alongside the lake. Those who've watched the two PGA Championships over the past 12 held there should remember. I was somewhat disappointed when it was announced it was going to Gleneagles a number of years ago truth be told. Given it's the 'home of golf', a land famed for it's links courses, it was about time the Ryder Cup returned to links land. Carnoustie was an obvious candidate if they wanted a venue with a hotel. Turnberry is another one. If they didn't want to go the Open Championship rota route, say what you want about him, no fan of him myself, but surely Trump International could have hosted it. Maybe even Castle Stuart which held the Scottish Open last year in which a certain Mickelson won could have hosted it too. I was the event in 2013, and IMO, it could have hosted a Ryder Cup. Instead, they opted but the nice, but somewhat boring option in Gleneagles which is somewhat similar to Celtic Manor in that regards, though in Celtic Manor's defence, the 2010 course had some memorable holes in the likes of the short par 15th if I recall correctly.

Looking at the next three venues (mentioned Hazeltine above already), thankfully none of them are anything like Gleneagles which for me this year took away from the viewing. I missed a large amount of the action this year if I'm honest, the previous Ryder Cups going back to 1999, I've watched every day and pretty much every hour of the event.

First Up

Kharrell wrote: »

Re: Phil's comments, there is a time and a place for making such a comments. That wasn't it, whether what he said was right or wrong in context, you just don't say something like that. He's an experienced professional who has been all over the world, won many Majors and tournaments, attended a lot of public events due to his status within the game, he should have been more media savvy than to fall into the trap. I could forgive him if he was in his early 20s or something like that, but that's not the case. Tom Watson is a legend in the game, he might well be out of touch with the modern golfer, but leave for behind closed doors. Take it up with the Ryder Cup panel, or at the very least, talk about it in public at a later date instead of making it a media circus focusing on his so called feud the media and many fans are lapping up as an excuse for their failure to beat the Europeans.

I honestly hope Azinger gets the job, the 'pod system' won't save him from the Europeans beating the US handily enough.. unless Faldo in some bizarro universe had a second crack at captaining the European side!

Just on the course itself. I have some experience in golf course design and have played Gleneagles in the past. It is a nice course, but it's not a spectacular course, and is certainly not a course to showcase Scottish golf. Sure, there is a some risk and reward holes, and to be fair, many of the holes are well framed in terms of spectator viewing. The par 3's, particularly the 17th was stunning looking due to the spectators, but when you think about it, how many holes will think back wow, I'd love to play that? Medinah had a number of brilliant holes, K Club has a few memorable holes, likewise The Belfry. Thankfully Hazeltine in 2016 is littered with fantastic holes throughout, especially on the back 9 alongside the lake. Those who've watched the two PGA Championships over the past 12 held there should remember. I was somewhat disappointed when it was announced it was going to Gleneagles a number of years ago truth be told. Given it's the 'home of golf', a land famed for it's links courses, it was about time the Ryder Cup returned to links land. Carnoustie was an obvious candidate if they wanted a venue with a hotel. Turnberry is another one. If they didn't want to go the Open Championship rota route, say what you want about him, no fan of him myself, but surely Trump International could have hosted it. Maybe even Castle Stuart which held the Scottish Open last year in which a certain Mickelson won could have hosted it too. I was the event in 2013, and IMO, it could have hosted a Ryder Cup. Instead, they opted but the nice, but somewhat boring option in Gleneagles which is somewhat similar to Celtic Manor in that regards, though in Celtic Manor's defence, the 2010 course had some memorable holes in the likes of the short par 15th if I recall correctly.

Looking at the next three venues (mentioned Hazeltine above already), thankfully none of them are anything like Gleneagles which for me this year took away from the viewing. I missed a large amount of the action this year if I'm honest, the previous Ryder Cups going back to 1999, I've watched every day and pretty much every hour of the event.

I think the problem is the number of spectators and the commercial activity to be accommodated. I know there are big crowds at the Open but they are spread over 18 holes, whereas the RC has a max of 12 matches on Sunday and only 4 at a time the other days.
I was at Brookline, the Belfry and K Club. All good viewing courses and I still saw a lot more golf on the big screens than I was able to see in the flesh.
I'd love to see the RC on a links but the old courses were not designed with spectators or crowd control in mind.

vienne86

So next time out, who will be the captains? There is a strong case for the US wheeling out Azinger again. Europe? Darren Clarke? Could be good, but hell, we'd miss him on Sky tv! He was brilliat.

gotapaininmy

Kharrell wrote: »

Re: Phil's comments, there is a time and a place for making such a comments. That wasn't it, whether what he said was right or wrong in context, you just don't say something like that. He's an experienced professional who has been all over the world, won many Majors and tournaments, attended a lot of public events due to his status within the game, he should have been more media savvy than to fall into the trap. I could forgive him if he was in his early 20s or something like that, but that's not the case. Tom Watson is a legend in the game, he might well be out of touch with the modern golfer, but leave for behind closed doors. Take it up with the Ryder Cup panel, or at the very least, talk about it in public at a later date instead of making it a media circus focusing on his so called feud the media and many fans are lapping up as an excuse for their failure to beat the Europeans.

I honestly hope Azinger gets the job, the 'pod system' won't save him from the Europeans beating the US handily enough.. unless Faldo in some bizarro universe had a second crack at captaining the European side!

Just on the course itself. I have some experience in golf course design and have played Gleneagles in the past. It is a nice course, but it's not a spectacular course, and is certainly not a course to showcase Scottish golf. Sure, there is a some risk and reward holes, and to be fair, many of the holes are well framed in terms of spectator viewing. The par 3's, particularly the 17th was stunning looking due to the spectators, but when you think about it, how many holes will think back wow, I'd love to play that? Medinah had a number of brilliant holes, K Club has a few memorable holes, likewise The Belfry. Thankfully Hazeltine in 2016 is littered with fantastic holes throughout, especially on the back 9 alongside the lake. Those who've watched the two PGA Championships over the past 12 held there should remember. I was somewhat disappointed when it was announced it was going to Gleneagles a number of years ago truth be told. Given it's the 'home of golf', a land famed for it's links courses, it was about time the Ryder Cup returned to links land. Carnoustie was an obvious candidate if they wanted a venue with a hotel. Turnberry is another one. If they didn't want to go the Open Championship rota route, say what you want about him, no fan of him myself, but surely Trump International could have hosted it. Maybe even Castle Stuart which held the Scottish Open last year in which a certain Mickelson won could have hosted it too. I was the event in 2013, and IMO, it could have hosted a Ryder Cup. Instead, they opted but the nice, but somewhat boring option in Gleneagles which is somewhat similar to Celtic Manor in that regards, though in Celtic Manor's defence, the 2010 course had some memorable holes in the likes of the short par 15th if I recall correctly.

Looking at the next three venues (mentioned Hazeltine above already), thankfully none of them are anything like Gleneagles which for me this year took away from the viewing. I missed a large amount of the action this year if I'm honest, the previous Ryder Cups going back to 1999, I've watched every day and pretty much every hour of the event.

I agree that in the "Home of Golf" it should have been played on a links, we made the same mistake with the K-Club, should have been played on a links here too. Smurfit basically bought the Ryder Cup with his sponsorship of the European Open there for a few years in the run up, I imagine something similar happened with Gleneagles. I'm not sure about Turnberry or Trump but Carnoustie wouldn't have been a good venue in my mind. Played it back in April for an exorbitant 140 sterling (having bargained down from 200!) and there's one hole I'll remember in five years time, the 18th and that's mostly down to Harrington and Van De Veldes shenanigans on that hole. Lahinch, Ballybunion, Carne and several others in Ireland are far better links courses than Carnoustie (bit off topic I know - apologies, I was just disappointed with Carnoustie!)

gotapaininmy

vienne86 wrote: »

So next time out, who will be the captains? There is a strong case for the US wheeling out Azinger again. Europe? Darren Clarke? Could be good, but hell, we'd miss him on Sky tv! He was brilliat.

They'll probably have a "pod" captaincy of Azinger, Dave Stockton and Ben Crenshaw! You enjoyed Clarkey's commentary? I thought he was dull to be honest. He was the only one of McGinley's Irish comtemporaries that wasn't a Vice-captain, that might hurt him if Miguel throws his hat in the ring too. Not sure how good Miguel would be with the whole media side of things given that his english is not fluent, it could wear him down?

vienne86

I see Harrington is saying on RTE that he would love the captain's job. Can't see him getting it. It's actually going to be an interesting call.

gotapaininmy

vienne86 wrote: »

I see Harrington is saying on RTE that he would love the captain's job. Can't see him getting it. It's actually going to be an interesting call.

Really? I thought Harrington would still be under the delusion that he'll make the team! He must be down the pecking order though with Miguel and Clarkey having been vice-captains previously.

First Up

gotapaininmy wrote: »

They'll probably have a "pod" captaincy of Azinger, Dave Stockton and Ben Crenshaw! You enjoyed Clarkey's commentary? I thought he was dull to be honest. He was the only one of McGinley's Irish comtemporaries that wasn't a Vice-captain, that might hurt him if Miguel throws his hat in the ring too. Not sure how good Miguel would be with the whole media side of things given that his english is not fluent, it could wear him down?

I thought Clarke was hopeless on TV. Bland cliches - not a single insight. I hardly saw Harrington all week. In fact I saw more of Caroline strutting the fairways than Padraig.