Petrol "stretching"

RandomAccess

That sample bottle was mangled!
I wonder was it a fuel safe container, if it was then...

Special Circumstances

RandomAccess wrote: »

That sample bottle was mangled!
I wonder was it a fuel safe container, if it was then...

That's the question really isn't it. Not much point putting petrol in coke bottle plastic.

Didn't really clear up much. "only 2 official cases of kerosene" "ohh no there was many more verified in private labs"

Was there or wasn't there more samples withh kerosene? Shoddy journalism really.

Ghost Train

Yes, didn't really add anything new, I think revenue did suggest there's not much profit to be made from it so unlikely to be organised crime

I'd imagine it's the higher flash point of kerosene (37-65C) vs petrol (-45C) that would mean when the engine is cold you're not going to get proper combustion. Once the engine warms up it will run smoother

At least they didn't echo the independents advice "to keep an eye on your compression" :pac:

RandomAccess

Prime time is past its best.

Its really just scraping the surface of stories, and is now just a platform for politicians to huff and puff.
Occasionally they do good work like the creche expose from last year, but for the most part it promises more than it can deliver.

Dartz

If revenue is right on the money involved in this, this might either be a case of a process fault, or adulteration with something that isn't kerosene.

This has been going on for 2-3 months now and no chain of stations has stepped forward and actively stated that they test and monitor their supply chain and it's got enough traction that there might be a market gap to do that. I do wonder if this isn't a process fault somewhere in the system, above the stations. Almost everything in Ireland comes from the one refinery, doesn't it?. Where this is happening is effectively distributed in a straight line along the M4/M6 between Dublin and Galway.

It's the failure point that's common to most petrol stations in the country in some fashion or other. And if there's a process fault there that goes unnoticed it'll basically.

If there's a process failure there and it's caught and admitted, someone's now one the hook for millions.


The other possibility is that, because Irish petrol is generally a bit poor, these smallish, highly stressed turbo engines running at high compression and low loads just aren't ****ing tolerating the monkey piss we've got to burn.

donkey balls

All petrol delivered throughout Ireland comes from the same terminal at Dublin port or at Cork, All the major petroleum companies draw from the same tanks.
Years ago when we had Statoil they delivered to the likes of Tesco which is now Topaz.

Dartz

donkey balls wrote: »

All petrol delivered throughout Ireland comes from the same terminal at Dublin port or at Cork, All the major petroleum companies draw from the same tanks.
Years ago when we had Statoil they delivered to the likes of Tesco which is now Topaz.

So if these things are clustering along the M4/6 from Dublin to the West like they seem to be in that Primetime report, I wonder if there isn't a specific tank that isn't either being contaminated with something, or being deliberately tampered with.

Because that seems like a real pattern right there.

And a fat load of liability if it's ever admitted

Tail Docker

Maybe Derry wasn't as mad as he was taken to be.

mikeecho

Tail Docker wrote: »

Maybe Derry wasn't as mad as he was taken to be.

Ehhhh..... Let's not let him back, I don't want to find out via a 15,000 word post

Dartz

mikeecho wrote: »

Ehhhh..... Let's not let him back, I don't want to find out via a 15,000 word post

Aw man, and I'd almost finished typing up On Industrial society and its Future Part II

donkey balls

Dartz wrote: »

So if these things are clustering along the M4/6 from Dublin to the West like they seem to be in that Primetime report, I wonder if there isn't a specific tank that isn't either being contaminated with something, or being deliberately tampered with.

Because that seems like a real pattern right there.

And a fat load of liability if it's ever admitted

The fuel is delivered by ship to the JFT at the ports samples are then taking,When a tanker truck arrives it is filled by bottom loading the driver has no way of interfering with the load.
All companies use the same tanks there is Diesel, Petrol, Kerosene, and aviation fuel at the JFT,The road tankers would not certainly be on the same routes every week.
From what I heard with the washing of agri diesel it leaves a toxic sludge which has to be transported to the likes of Germany for incineration,As for the RTE reporter with the plastic bottle that melted,It would be interesting to see if it was a UN spec for carrying petroleum or a normal plastic bottle like a coke bottle.

ozmo

Just watched that primetime on rte player- and the presenter showed the effect the stretched petrol had on his plastic bottle- it melted it- said petrol alone wouldnt do that.

Anyone know what container that was - as it looks a simple test for checking your petrol supply. I only get my petrol from two garages and would consider buying some petrol in my lawnmower petrol can, that I can test at home for my own peace of mind.
Id really hate my almost classic car to be destroyed like that.

visual

After watching prime time and the interview with customs. I'm of the opinion that neither is fit for purpose and your on your own.

How can they only have 2 samples after 4 months of this problem would indicate to me it's very low on list of priorities.

ozmo

Spike Witwicky wrote: »

Be handy if there was a name n shame website to avoid these places.

There is a list at the end of the Prime Time special of 5 petrol major retailers mentioned
- at least 4 safe with no issues reported and I think some reading between the lines of one of the suppliers mentioned might be needed.

I'm now looking for the nearest of those safe stations to me to stick with until this gets sorted.

Tail Docker

Any of ye involved in "stretching" petrol? Boards is big, there must be someone..

Wheelnut

Tail Docker wrote: »

Any of ye involved in "stretching" petrol? Boards is big, there must be someone..

I have often stretched petrol using a light right foot.

poor sick passat

Garage phoned me and have results back from Lab, and Results show no contamination, of the current petrol in the tank, but he says the car is still damaged due to Petrol stretching, and the price to put right is €9,280??!!!
He says no way of knowing when the bad petrol was used, have used different garages to fill up, so what now?

Will have to put pressure on local politicians to try to set up a fund, as know of no other way of sorting.? I do not have €9,000.

Without a car for 2 weeks now, and probably will be without one for another 1 or 2 months. Having to hire a car from hertz for a few days at the end of the week.

Kids, (9 and 7) have to cycle 1.5miles to school, not too bad, but hard when wet and cold.

Will try to keep smiling!

Special Circumstances

Did the garage explain what was damaged? Or what the tell tale signs of petrol stretching were?

There must be a cheaper option than 9k plus.

poor sick passat

Where do I start?

I am no mechanic, so find it difficult to know what to ask etc. But the car had all the usual symptoms, see prime time, the Auto trader man at the end gave the best description, but basically lack of power and missing, especially when cold/ in the morning.

The garage says the spark plugs were covered in carbon, and the engine pressure was very low, around 4/ 40 or 400.psi? should be much higher.
The problem is, that the main dealer, (volkswagen) will only do a full repair as they have to stand over it, he says he will cheaper option, because that is not what vw recommends, and then the warranty still applies. Basically not getting many options at all. this garage now has 3 cars in, I think 3 weeks ago they had none, now have 3, sirocco, passat and a polo, even the polo estimate is around 5,000?

The mechanic mentioned new pumps twin turbos, lines, filter, tubes etc etc.
What can I do? especially as my engine knowledge is low limited?

the engine is 1.4 tsi automatic.

Will talk to a separate independent mechanic and get his opinion, will post this up soon again.

PoorSickAudi

poor sick passat wrote: »

Garage phoned me and have results back from Lab, and Results show no contamination, of the current petrol in the tank, but he says the car is still damaged due to Petrol stretching, and the price to put right is €9,280??!!!
He says no way of knowing when the bad petrol was used, have used different garages to fill up, so what now?

Will have to put pressure on local politicians to try to set up a fund, as know of no other way of sorting.? I do not have €9,000.

Without a car for 2 weeks now, and probably will be without one for another 1 or 2 months. Having to hire a car from hertz for a few days at the end of the week.

Kids, (9 and 7) have to cycle 1.5miles to school, not too bad, but hard when wet and cold.

Will try to keep smiling!

Will the insurance not cover it? I haven't heard back about mine yet. Now i'm really scared about what they'll say 😭

tomaso11

Is there an updated list of all the reported stations in Mayo? heading down this weekend and would like to avoid them if possible

Wheelnut

Below is a link to "carmechanics" forum. This is an English site and most of the people on there are well qualified and experienced mechanics. There are also some Irish guys on there.

The query concerns a Skoda 1.4 which is probably the same engine as yours. The English were unaware of the petrol stretching problem so the first half of the thread is concerned with other suggestions. About half way down page 2 they come to petrol stretching and it is suggested that repairs are viable.

For Poor Sick Passat it may be worth a read even if only to learn some technical terms, but it might even point her in the right direction. (The first poster, mfk, is in Ireland)


http://carmechanics.proboards.com/thread/2073/octavia-petrol-knocking-fault-codes?page=2

poor sick passat

Have just spoken to someone in Customs, and he said he needs any proof of bad petrol and then they can chase the case for us. He was very helpful and very determined to sort it out.

They are currently struggling to find many hard cases that they can pin down, and this is exactly the problem I have, the garage says that the fuel they have sent for testing has come back clean! yet the garage still says it is petrol stretching.

If you do have a case I phoned revenue and customs on 06763400, and just said I wanted to report a case of Petrol stretching, they gave me the person to talk to.

Chimaera

Speak to your insurance company about it. They may cover it, and they could advise you on how to proceed from here. If they can get a letter from a suitably qualified person to say that the damage was caused by poor quality fuel, you should be covered.

If you've kept fuel receipts, go back along the chain to the other garages where you've bought fuel and see what you can find out there.

poor sick passat

thanks Wheelnut, I will do that!

And for Poorsickaudi,

I went through my policy and they have clause of paying only €500 in relation to bad fuel or fuel contamination, sent the policy to my solicitor to see if he could see any way around it, and he said no I had read it right, and then I have a 250 excess so will only get 250.

My only hope is if I can prove it is NOT Petrol stretching then I will be able to claim or it will come under warranty. Or I go for the Euro millions on Friday or winning streak Saturday and I might win 2 cars! but think I might be too young for Winning streak.

will update again

poor sick passat

I told the customs man I got a fill in Leitrim in August, and he said he will check with his guys and see if this was an area or station that can be traced back as a possibility?

nb my insurance was fully comp and with the RSA so a good company I think.

PoorSickAudi

poor sick passat wrote: »

thanks Wheelnut, I will do that!

And for Poorsickaudi,

I went through my policy and they have clause of paying only €500 in relation to bad fuel or fuel contamination, sent the policy to my solicitor to see if he could see any way around it, and he said no I had read it right, and then I have a 250 excess so will only get 250.

My only hope is if I can prove it is NOT Petrol stretching then I will be able to claim or it will come under warranty. Or I go for the Euro millions on Friday or winning streak Saturday and I might win 2 cars! but think I might be too young for Winning streak.

will update again

Jeez that's awful bad form that you'd only get €250 from the insurance. I'm with aviva fully comp and they said if it's proven to be fuel stretching i will only have to pay the €300 excess. I'm not covered for a car rental from the insurance though but the garage were nice enough to give me a courtesy car after i was too weeks without my own car. But i've no idea when i'll be giving the courtesy car back because nobody can give me a timeline of when i'll get my own car back.

visual

Not saying it's not petrol stretching as it could well be but a lot of mechanics can be lazy and jump to conclusions without facts.

If your petrol tested ok then it probably always was. Your tank never fully empties it goes low and it's topped back up to full so if you got a bad fill then each fill after that would be diluting the bad petrol but should still have a trace that can be detected.

Bandara

visual wrote: »

Not saying it's not petrol stretching as it could well be but a lot of mechanics can be lazy and jump to conclusions without facts.

If your petrol tested ok then it probably always was. Your tank never fully empties it goes low and it's topped back up to full so if you got a bad fill then each fill after that would be diluting the bad petrol but should still have a trace that can be detected.

Absolutely agree, I have had many cases of customers 100% certain that they have been sold bad/washed fuel by my sites, something that is just not ever going to happen, I operate highly professional, state of the art, high tech sites, we are not investing over 2 million in each garage to get shut down trying make a quick 50 grand. All of these customers who have come back to us were told unequivocally by their highly qualified mechanics that without a shadow of a doubt that their car has been ruined by the fuel they purchased. At this point we ask for the mechanic to please put this statement in writing, I have never had one agree to do so, which makes no sense to me after their previous insistance that it was the case.

In every single instance that I have been involved I personally meet with and explain and demonstrate the processes and traceability we have in place both manually and via elecronic failsafes to protect our customers and ourselves, when the alleged fuel is tested by independent labs (to the satisfaction of the customer), the fuel is always absolutely perfect, as has been the sample taken from the tank. The mechanic suddenly rows back very hard and another reason is found for the faults. In several cases the customers have come back to us and apologised for the whole situation and they have thankfully continued as great customers, they had been convinced by the mechanics and don't have the knowledge of mechanics to doubt the 'experts'. I have actually seen first hand a mechanic (with his own decent sized company) open a customers fuel tank right in front of me, touch the inside of the fuel cap with his finger and TASTE the fuel before then proclaiming it is Kerosene and that we have sold the customer a tank full of Kero! This is genuinely something that happened, unbelievable as it may seem.

This petrol stretching situation (I've also known it as 'striped unleaded') has been going on for 3-4 years in the same sites that sold washed derv. Revenue have only understood it in the last few months as they really have no clue what they are doing.

Getting back to the original point, it is my understanding from the labs that I have spoken to that residure from a bad fill of fuel will last in a tank for between 3-6 months in car of a normal milage driver, regardless of the tank being emptied and filled 20+ etc times.

This whole stretching thing is totally out of proportion, theres been a bandwagon of cases simply due to the publicity and people putting 1 and 1 together and coming up with the answer being bad fuel, a few sites were caught and done for it. The same lowlife sites that are selling washed derv for years. Revenue / customs dont really care, myself personally (verbally) and many others such as the IPIA (in writing) have repeatedly given a list of sites selling this stuff to revenue officers and customs. Nothing is ever done.

And as towards people wondering why the customs won't/don't EVER EVER test sites for striped unleaded? The answer is very simple. Health and Safety, they won't agree to test petrol.

Thats the insanity of the situation we are in.

poor sick passat

So just to confirm, if I did, and do run my tank right down to and into the red light, i.e. 5 miles left to go on the dashboard then you think i might still get a positive result for the bad fuel, even if the bad fuel was put in 5 fills prior?

The garage also says that they can take a scraping of the inside of the engine to test "this carbon residue" at least I think that is what he said. Wish I had recorded the calls now. Especially as I am sure initially he said the petrol would answer the problem, and then as you say he back tracked when it came back clean, etc etc.!!!


But anyway, excellent message!

That is great info. I think? makes life a bit more complicated for me, but hey, it might give me a lead for a bit.

Thanks again Bandara!