Petrol "stretching"

Tea 1000

http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/drivers-told-to-be-alert-for-petrol-stretching-30539815.html

Revenue Commissioners, Customs and Excise and Gardai have been investigating the practice after reports of significant fuel contamination in the west, border regions and midlands.

Petrol stretching involves adding up to 10pc of kerosene to petrol before selling it to unwitting drivers.
- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-talk/drivers-told-to-be-alert-for-petrol-stretching-30539815.html#sthash.BDwzkY2K.dpuf

Valetta

The elasticity of supply and demand.

dantastic

So as a consumer you are now expected to bring with a lab kit and test the petrol before filling. Nice one.

It's the same as saying;
We know there's a problem, but we are going to pretend that you are responsible.

Name and shame.

blastman

That tips video was next to useless. Keep an eye on your compression? How is that advice helpful (for 99% of motorists)?

micks_address

i was chatting my car dealer about this at the weekend, i was asking him about a local garage and he was saying it was grand.. was a bit concerned that their price seemed a bit lower..

Anyway he showed me a couple of pictures of engines of 141 cars they had gotten back which were basically piston heads caked with carbon..

All petrol engines..

Big Nasty

I wonder is this happening in just the non branded cheap fuel sites or has it been found in branded sites too?

Spike Witwicky

Be handy if there was a name n shame website to avoid these places.

Axel Lamp

Spike Witwicky wrote: »

Be handy if there was a name n shame website to avoid these places.

Alas it would need to be located in a lawless jurisdiction as the libel laws would murder the site operator

Dial Hard

Axel Lamp wrote: »

Alas it would need to be located in a lawless jurisdiction as the libel laws would murder the site operator

It's only libel if it's not true.

Tea 1000

Looks like it's a lot more damaging than laundered diesel to an engine.

Chimaera

Tea 1000 wrote: »

Looks like it's a lot more damaging than laundered diesel to an engine.

I wouldn't say that. It's a different sort of damage.

Laundered diesel does its damage because the acid used to remove the marker dye is rarely washed out properly. This will cause a lot of damage to the fuel system components. It'll also tend to have more water in it, again because they're not that careful about removing it during processing.

Kerosene in petrol will mainly cause coking because it's not burning the kerosene properly. So you get carbon deposits in the head, and probably in the cat too. Too much of this will eventually cause trouble but it's more easily undone and if it's caught in time it's reversible. Acid and water damage to DFIE is permanent and cumulative.

As for spotting it, the smell should be a bit of a giveaway. Kerosene has a pretty strong smell and it's very distinct from the smell of petrol so if there's any meaningful amount of kerosene in petrol you'll probably get a whiff of it while filling up.

blade1

Dial Hard wrote: »

It's only libel if it's not true.

There would bound to be at least a few wrongly accused.

pudzey101

Where's the best garage / place ? Heard stay away from topaz and amber? Maxol is supose to be the best with the highest levels of octane , any truth to this ?

Chimaera

Dial Hard wrote: »

It's only libel if it's not true.

A lot of people don't have the money to defend a libel action even they are right, so it's an effective means of shutting people up regardless of the truth of what they're saying.

Dartz

Kerosene drops the octane rating of the fuel.

Melting pistons I'd well believe if it's causing the engine to detonate. But the car's ECU should detect the misfire and either flag it with a flashing CEL - or knock back the spark. And then flag it. Especially since modern engines have such high compression anyway.

Carbon buildup is nothing a good hard shoeing won't solve. Petrol engines need to be run at more than a constant 1500rpm to get the chamber temperatures and pressures high enough.

Besides, IIRC, Dipetane is a kerosene formulation?

jimgoose

pudzey101 wrote: »

Where's the best garage / place ? Heard stay away from topaz and amber? Maxol is supose to be the best with the highest levels of octane , any truth to this ?

Forget about octane. Unleaded 95 is just perfect. Stay away from cowbows and fellas wirth Monaghan accents. If it's too good to be true, it is. I personally prefer ol' J.R. at Texaco.

Alan_007_

Would this petrol return less mpg than non stretched petrol?
I've noticed before when I've filled up at a certain petrol station that I've gotten consistently between 10-15% less mpg than I would filling up at other stations. Also noticed a distinct lack of power in the car from filling up at this place, just wondering could stretching be the cause here?

pudzey101

I know from own experiences and others that apple garage fuel is dirt , car went down on power and few my mates had misfires , what stations do ye get your fuel from ? Thinking of switching to maxol or tesco

Dartz

pudzey101 wrote: »

I know from own experiences and others that apple garage fuel is dirt , car went down on power and few my mates had misfires , what stations do ye get your fuel from ? Thinking of switching to maxol or tesco

I think Applegreens adds ethanol to theirs...

I also add about 100:1 2-stroke oil too...

Zimmerframe

Anton Savage is currently on the Last Word about this issue. He is also talking about changing red to green diesel and obviously he doesn't even know what colour normal auto diesel is.

Alan_007_

pudzey101 wrote: »

I know from own experiences and others that apple garage fuel is dirt , car went down on power and few my mates had misfires , what stations do ye get your fuel from ? Thinking of switching to maxol or tesco

I've heard that about applegreen too, but I've never had any issues with them tho ...I normally get it from topaz or applegreen and don't notice any problems from either of them

Alan_007_

Zimmerframe wrote: »

Anton Savage is currently on the Last Word about this issue. He is also talking about changing red to green diesel and obviously he doesn't even know what colour normal auto diesel is.

Yeah noticed that myself, really doesn't inspire confidence in anything you have to say when you get that obvious fact wrong!

Chimaera

Alan_007_ wrote: »

Would this petrol return less mpg than non stretched petrol?
I've noticed before when I've filled up at a certain petrol station that I've gotten consistently between 10-15% less mpg than I would filling up at other stations. Also noticed a distinct lack of power in the car from filling up at this place, just wondering could stretching be the cause here?

Absolutely. It can't burn properly in a petrol engine so you're going to get poor combustion, poor economy, poor power.

bbability

I know a lad working in a Main Dealer in Co Meath area. Has seen a number of cars in the past month or so with engines destroyed from this racket. This is a serious issue but it's one thing knowing about it and another proving it. It seems to be around midlands and parts of Meath especially.

BMJD

Spike Witwicky wrote: »

Be handy if there was a name n shame website to avoid these places.

it would be handier if the justice system worked and those who were doing it were punished appropriately, thus shutting them down permanently

random spot checks in petrol stations --> prosecutions --> proper sentencing

it's not rocket science

Cerco

Which is lighter ,kero or petrol? Just wondering if you took a sample and put it in a glass jar, would you see a separation?

Anjobe

Cerco wrote: »

Which is lighter ,kero or petrol? Just wondering if you took a sample and put it in a glass jar, would you see a separation?

Kerosene is the heavier, but they are both hydrocarbon fractions of petroleum and as such are miscible in all proportions.

dar83

jimgoose wrote: »

Forget about octane. Unleaded 95 is just perfect. Stay away from cowbows and fellas wirth Monaghan accents. If it's too good to be true, it is. I personally prefer ol' J.R. at Texaco.

Depends what you're running really, for certain cars 95 octane is far from just perfect.

corkgsxr

Alan_007_ wrote: »

I've heard that about applegreen too, but I've never had any issues with them tho ...I normally get it from topaz or applegreen and don't notice any problems from either of them

I get Feck all out of a tank of applegreen on the gsxr.

dar83 wrote: »

Depends what you're running really, for certain cars 95 octane is far from just perfect.

Any standard production car should run perfect on 95.

CJhaughey

corkgsxr wrote: »

Any standard production car should run perfect on 95.

Japanese pump fuel is 100 octane, some Jap imports don't like the junk we get here.

RandomAccess

Would this affect Turbo or N/A cars differently?
Due to differences in compression etc?

jimgoose

dar83 wrote: »

Depends what you're running really, for certain cars 95 octane is far from just perfect.

104 RON be de jab. Savage boo outta her lad!

jimgoose

CJhaughey wrote: »

Japanese pump fuel is 100 octane, some Jap imports don't like the junk we get here.

Most forecourt petrol in Japan is 96 RON. Fast and Furious people of course need to apply elsewhere

fryup

is this basically diluted petrol ??

jca

fryup wrote: »

is this basically diluted petrol ??

Yep:D

jimgoose

RandomAccess wrote: »

Would this affect Turbo or N/A cars differently?
Due to differences in compression etc?

No. That's accounted for in properly configured turbo/supercharged setups.

coolbeans

Anjobe wrote: »

Kerosene is the heavier, but they are both hydrocarbon fractions of petroleum and as such are miscible in all proportions.

Miscible. New word. Noice.

PADRAIC.M

Cost 3k of damage to a car in our garage today 3 year old car!

dgt

So, TVO is making a comeback..... :cool:

jca

dgt wrote: »

So, TVO is making a comeback..... :cool:

Decat her Laaad to get that lovely aroma:D

seamus

Presumably the well-known garages are OK for this (Topaz, Maxol, etc) as their petrol will be coming from a single source?

It's the "Murphy's service station" and other random places you'd need to watch out for, especially if they boast petrol prices consistently 3c+ cheaper than every other local garage.

fryup

they say a knocking noise is a symptom of this....

is that the pistons firing out of sequence??

Cerco

seamus wrote: »

Presumably the well-known garages are OK for this (Topaz, Maxol, etc) as their petrol will be coming from a single source?

It's the "Murphy's service station" and other random places you'd need to watch out for, especially if they boast petrol prices consistently 3c+ cheaper than every other local garage.

It would be interesting to know if the contamination occurs before or at the filling station. Anybody have views on this?

Tea 1000

seamus wrote: »

Presumably the well-known garages are OK for this (Topaz, Maxol, etc) as their petrol will be coming from a single source?

It's the "Murphy's service station" and other random places you'd need to watch out for, especially if they boast petrol prices consistently 3c+ cheaper than every other local garage.

Not necessarily, there were a few main branded ones shut down due to laundered diesel, so I assume there's a similar percentage selling this muck in petrol also.

H3llR4iser

...and, that would explain why when I refuel at a specific couple of places, the 159 goes like sh1te. Good to know (and shame I can't say what places they are. In Cork anyway...)

pred racer

dgt wrote: »

So, TVO is making a comeback..... :cool:

I must dig out the old Massey 20

Gazzmonkey

fryup wrote: »

they say a knocking noise is a symptom of this....

is that the pistons firing out of sequence??

The knocking aka pinking is caused when the fuel ignites before the piston has fully completed it's compression stroke as far as I know.

When compressing the fuel, heat is created... this can actually cause the fuel to ignite before the spark hits it.

Lead was used to stop this in the past but it's octane that's used in more modern cars. hence the term 'unleaded'

Open to correction

ianobrien

Gazzmonkey wrote: »

The knocking aka pinking is caused when the fuel ignites before the piston has fully completed it's compression stroke as far as I know.

When compressing the fuel, heat is created... this can actually cause the fuel to ignite before the spark hits it.

Lead was used to stop this in the past but it's octane that's used in more modern cars. hence the term 'unleaded'

Open to correction

You're right for the knocking part in that the pre-ignition of the fuel during the compression stroke causes the knock as the explosion is trying to force down the piston, while the crank is trying to force the piston up.

The engine is designed for the explosion of the air/fuel to happen when it decides (spark plug) at a set moment in the rotation for optimum power/economy. The use of kerosene alters the fuel properties causing it to ignite early during the compression sequence.

The only part that you're incorrect about is the octane.

<Science alert> Octane is a either a long straight chain alkane (n-octane) or a branched alkane (iso-octane) organic molecule. It's used to determine two points on the octane scale (80RON - n-octane; 100RON - Iso-octane) measured with a variable compression single cylinder engine. Tetraethyl lead was used to stop pre-ignition in the past but now they use other organomatallic compounds, nickel complexes I think. </Science alert>

Chimaera

There are no organo-metallics used for knock control these days for more or less the same reasons lead was banned: air quality issues and fouling of catalytic converters. One of the more popular ignition enhancers these days is ethanol.

Octane rating is essentially a measure of how quickly the fuel will light when exposed to a spark; it's also a measure of resistance to self-ignition. So a higher octane fuel will resist self-ignition while lighting faster once the spark fires.

ianobrien

Chimaera wrote: »

There are no organo-metallics used for knock control these days for more or less the same reasons lead was banned: air quality issues and fouling of catalytic converters. One of the more popular ignition enhancers these days is ethanol.

Octane rating is essentially a measure of how quickly the fuel will light when exposed to a spark; it's also a measure of resistance to self-ignition. So a higher octane fuel will resist self-ignition while lighting faster once the spark fires.

I have to disagree with you on the octane rating. Its a scale with two set points with the two octanes fixed at 80 & 100. I used to work in a lab in an oil refinery and tested petrol enough of times! The instrument we used was a single cylinder engine with a variable compression ratio.

derry

Petrol always contains some ~50% paraffin. Kerosene is approximately 7 parts paraffin 1 part petrol .The old fuels tractor vapour oil TVO in the past such as world war 2 was used in tractors which had compression ratio of ~6:1 and was spark ignition engine that was nearly a diesel engine . The tractors would use high percentage of petrol on the TVO fuel when running light such as going from A to B .Then in the fields the tractors would use TVO with higher percentages of Paraffin in it as paraffin fuel is more suitable fuel for hard work .

Modern cars with a compression ratio of 10:1 will not want a higher paraffin content as it wont burn so well and will cause more carbon build ups and the fuel will have less octane .Its mostly the CATs that will clog up rapidly as the paraffin will ensure more unburnt fuel exits the engine either not burnt fully or still burning when it gets to the CATS. If Cats get too hot this will destroy them .If cats get too much carbon build up in them that wrecks them . If you suspect the fuel has 10% kerosene in it the smell of the fuel will often give it away .If you take a sample of the fuel there are ways to verify if there is too much paraffin in it but that isn't easy for the joe soap to do its something the fuel laboratory can do best .

Also 100% pure kerosene will run in old diesel engine such as my 1993 Toyota Carina 2l diesel engine as my friend proved clocking up 200,000 miles using that fuel in his diesel Toyota Carina . Modern diesels with common rail will often not work well with kerosene as the fuel pumps wont be lubricated from kerosene fuels and the common rail might get issues

So adding 10% kerosene to petrol is looking similar to adding ~10% diesel fuel to petrol. Older petrol cars especially big engines with fewer electronics with less compression from worn pistons might easily ignore the kerosene effects might even get better MPG .
The modern cars with newer better pistons with higher compressions would be more likely to experience ping knocking and even melted holes in pistons from lower octane fuel .

In third world countries the petrol's will often have a higher paraffin contents as those countries can import cars with no cats . The diesel fuels will also have high sulfur content that wrecks the modern diesel cars Particle filter..

Ethanol fuels have a very high octane value .Adding more ethanol to the fuel will increase the octane . So if you suspect that you got stretched fuel then adding Ethanol to the fuel will counteract this . A few years ago this was easy just put some E85 fuel in the tank. Nowadays the ROI doesn't sell the E85 fuel as the government removed the subsidy of lower tax and the fuel if sold now would cost closer to €2 a liter .The only source for ethanol is home heating sources that sell it for €4 a liter in small amounts or €2 a liter if you buy 1000 liters of it

For criminals to add ethanol they can source it probably for 80cents a liter and add it to the fuel . On average most cars wont notice ~20% ethanol in the fuel other than the engine will be more perky and often will have extra BHP ,however it often will run cooler and be tricky to start in the cold morning's and smell like brewery in the cold morning starts . Also the ethanol will reduce the MPG as it less MPG fuel but burns much cleaner than petrol so often will clean out the carbon deposits on engines .

Methanol is similar in qualities and prices in bulk to ethanol but it attacks aluminum parts in the engine with vengeance. Methanol race car drain the fuel from cars in between races as it is so corrosive . Methanol fuel will add lots more BHP to suitable high compression engines and some extra power to normal car The other ways to raise the octane in fuel is to add chemicals such as metals such as lead or other fuels like toluene. The modern cars cats will be destroyed with lead solutions .

The racing cars with higher compressions like ~12:1 will use petrol fuels with higher toluene content in it . Buying some racing fuel and adding it to the stretched fuel might also help but it too burns slowly inside the engine and is ejected outside the engine in the cats . Modern Petrol has often got some 10 to 20% toluene in it smells like paint thinners .

Modern cars can it seems run on 100% toluene fuel but the exhaust fumes stink to hell and back.That fact was found out when the Australian petrol companies not having to pay tax on toluene fuel supplied some parts of Australia with 100% toluene fuel and customers complained about the awful smell from the exhaust emission .

In petrol production the oil companies are allowed some lee way on many items they add or subtract from the fuel .The 5% ethanol fuel they add to modern Irish fuel can vary considerably from ~7% down to ~3% . Toxic benzine can vary from ~0% to ~5% best I can tell but often seems to be 1%. Toluene content can vary from from ~5% to ~50% and looks like it mostly ~30%. Paraffin can vary from ~30% to ~60% best i can tell ~20% seems to be the norm . The other components like Naphtha and various petrol's components can vary a lot from batch to batch . Its not always the petrol retail outlets that do the old trick of adding saw dust to the bread to stretch it out there exists many opportunities at the fuel making and fuel blending parts of the fuel supply.

As a rough rule the fuel ROI is probably the worst quality in central Europe with only places like eastern Europe and Greece with possibly worse fuels . Its good for car makers they get to wreck cars and people got to buy more new cars so pressure is on governments to look the other way when bad fuels enter the system . The old diesel fuels allowed many diesel cars like Mercedes Toyota Nissan to get ~1,000,000 miles .That was bad for car makers .The same makes like Mercedes Toyota Nisan the newwer cars with new diesel fuels are often clapped out now at ~300,000 miles . They modern diesel engines have removed much of the excess diesel to get better MPG and that leaves less lubrication for the engines so they wear out more .Also the fuel quality is severely impacted with the year ~2000 onwards recent addition of ~7 to ~10% bio fuel which also helps increase engine wear problems .Fuel suppliers Having successfully got rid of the ~1,000,000 mile diesel engine now the target is to get rid of the ~500,000 miles petrol engines and get them to be worn out at less than ~200,000 miles .

The days of good fuel are probably over and the car maintenance insurance companies wont insure for fuel issues .Now the insurers tell you to sue the Fuel suppliers . So from here on in your gonna have to take sample of fuel from every fill you make or you wont be able to sue the fuel suppliers .

Thats the real story of Irish fuels they dont want you to know

Derry