Irish Rail strike days

steveblack

To make it easier to understand think of CIE as a army, the management as Generals and the workers as Soldiers.
If the war aint going well, mistakes are made and battles lost, the Generals are recalled from the front and possibly court martial. New Generals take over and if they cant be victorious the same happens to them.
Now in CIE managers aint winning any battles, but still keep getting promotions, Plenty of 4 star mangers who have never had a victory. Not one has ever been recalled or court martial. There are no consequences for them failing year after year.
In war you dont blame the soldiers for losing battles, but the Generals for bad decisions, so why all the hate for the CIE workers?
The public would be marching on the streets if the army was suffering as many defeats as CIE , demanding the government do something about the generals making a mess.

I suppose its easier just to blame the workers and not your betters earning 100k+ a year for their incompetence.

Copyerselveson

Grandeeod wrote: »

Wrong. You seem like a reasonable person, but I suggest you study the history of CIE and its industrial relations. Management are far from perfect. The shareholder is far from perfect, but staff have consistantly being protected from economic reality and enjoyed very good renumeration for what they do. The lack of trust has been driven by staff that point blank refuse to accept any step back in terms of basic pay. Invariably its drivers and to fully understand the ins and outs of that, you really need to study Irish railway history in general.

For your own sake google a bit, buy a few books, maybe even join the IRRS and avail of their library as it can provide you with more info than just a fantasy playback of history.

It might be constructive if you could set out your vision of public transport in Ireland and how it should be organised and what level of infrastructure should be there to support it?

mickydoomsux

steveblack wrote: »

To make it easier to understand think of CIE as a army, the management as Generals and the workers as Soldiers.
If the war aint going well, mistakes are made and battles lost, the Generals are recalled from the front and possibly court martial. New Generals take over and if they cant be victorious the same happens to them.
Now in CIE managers aint winning any battles, but still keep getting promotions, Plenty of 4 star mangers who have never had a victory. Not one has ever been recalled or court martial. There are no consequences for them failing year after year.
In war you dont blame the soldiers for losing battles, but the Generals for bad decisions, so why all the hate for the CIE workers?
The public would be marching on the streets if the army was suffering as many defeats as CIE , demanding the government do something about the generals making a mess.

I suppose its easier just to blame the workers and not your betters earning 100k+ a year for their incompetence.

People actually see the frontline staff so they are the easiest ones to channel their anger at.

Managers just get shifted around constantly and there are new (pointless) jobs created for the ones that have nothing to do. The organization is ridiculously top-heavy but the general public don't know/see that.

JayRoc

may06 wrote: »

you didnt answer my question either.

You mean what do I "think they should do"?
I think they should probably put up with a temporary pay cut of a tenner a week and be aware of how the strike is being perceived by most of their customers.

Look, I'm not a bandwagon jumper and I do sympathise with workers who feel they are being exploited, it's just that nothing I've heard so far convinces me that the immense damage to the reputation of IR staff that the strike is causing, is justified.

devnull

steveblack wrote: »

To make it easier to understand think of CIE as a army, the management as Generals and the workers as Soldiers.
If the war aint going well, mistakes are made and battles lost, the Generals are recalled from the front and possibly court martial. New Generals take over and if they cant be victorious the same happens to them.
Now in CIE managers aint winning any battles, but still keep getting promotions, Plenty of 4 star mangers who have never had a victory. Not one has ever been recalled or court martial. There are no consequences for them failing year after year.
In war you dont blame the soldiers for losing battles, but the Generals for bad decisions, so why all the hate for the CIE workers?
The public would be marching on the streets if the army was suffering as many defeats as CIE , demanding the government do something about the generals making a mess.

I suppose its easier just to blame the workers and not your betters earning 100k+ a year for their incompetence.

Are these the same greedy people who have took a pay cut almost 4 times higher than the staff are refusing?

Although even to compare yourself to the army is laughable, because quite frankly, if CIE staff think they are on equal footing to the army, then that says it all.

steveblack

All the haters here are full of it.

" I'd love a job like those in CIE, i would gladly retrain and do the job for €20k a year."
Dublin Bus have been hiring for the last year and still cant fill the job vacancies, and they are paying more than €20k, so what are you waiting for, come and work in paradise.

" In my job we all took massive pay cuts to keep the company alive."
Look at the times that they post here, they are all over the place. No rhyme or reason , no "shift" pattern.
Let me guess, they suffer from insomnia? Keeps then up all night and day so they post here.
Ask them what they work at and you get a reply "I dont think its pertinent to the discussion".
We dont want to know where you work, but in what field and they refuse to say.

The majority of haters here are Walter Mitty types, they most likely dont work possibly never have and/or have been turned down for a job in CIE.

noodler

steveblack wrote: »

All the haters here are full of it.

" I'd love a job like those in CIE, i would gladly retrain and do the job for €20k a year."
Dublin Bus have been hiring for the last year and still cant fill the job vacancies, and they are paying more than €20k, so what are you waiting for, come and work in paradise.

" In my job we all took massive pay cuts to keep the company alive."
Look at the times that they post here, they are all over the place. No rhyme or reason , no "shift" pattern.
Let me guess, they suffer from insomnia? Keeps then up all night and day so they post here.
Ask them what they work at and you get a reply "I dont think its pertinent to the discussion".
We dont want to know where you work, but in what field and they refuse to say.

The majority of haters here are Walter Mitty types, they most likely dont work possibly never have and/or have been turned down for a job in CIE.

It is possible albeit unlikely.

More probably is a large number of taxpayers who have already taken paycuts or lost their jobs during the recession and do not want to be held to ransom by workers looking for more State money which isn't currently available.


I guess its how you spin it.

Infini

mickydoomsux wrote: »

People actually see the frontline staff so they are the easiest ones to channel their anger at.

Managers just get shifted around constantly and there are new (pointless) jobs created for the ones that have nothing to do. The organization is ridiculously top-heavy but the general public don't know/see that.

Pretty much this. Theres simply too much managment in the place and it needs a serious culling down there because the frontline jobs are the one dissapearing cos of them.

JayRoc wrote:

But it's not mandatory, is it?

It is. We all pay into it wether we go or not. For Several years I never even went to the doctor or rarely once in a year.

JayRoc wrote:

So you're complaining about being given the option of GP care for less than three quid a week for you (and again, correct me if I'm wrong here) AND your family?

Where was the complaint again? -.O

JayRoc wrote:

Most people I know would kill for these perks.

To be honest, I think this strike might be a huge blunder on the part of your unions, because apart from anything else it's drawn a lot of publicity to a pay and perks package that the vast majority of your customers weren't aware of.
Striking while IR employees are earning a minimum of 700 bills a week (that's according to one of your own guys earlier in this thread) along with a GP care scheme for peanuts and free travel, etc....just makes yee seem ungrateful and petty to most people, I would imagine.

To be honest I dont think it has. Only haters I've seen are the usual trolls on the news sites but the general public which we were out with while picketing seem to support us. Also I dont make minimum €700 a week noone bar clerical or drivers at the top of the scale could make that kind of money. Remember they always quote the amount made before taxes to try and overinflate the actual amount of money people are on. Also once your making over a certain amount your hit with the top rate of tax which means for example if your doing overtime outside your contracted hours you can end up with just over €60 after tax for that 9 1/2hr shift. So much for perks C_C

zl1whqvjs75cdy

Infini2 wrote: »

Pretty much this. Theres simply too much managment in the place and it needs a serious culling down there because the frontline jobs are the one dissapearing cos of them.



It is. We all pay into it wether we go or not. For Several years I never even went to the doctor or rarely once in a year.



Where was the complaint again? -.O



To be honest I dont think it has. Only haters I've seen are the usual trolls on the news sites but the general public which we were out with while picketing seem to support us. Also I dont make minimum €700 a week noone bar clerical or drivers at the top of the scale could make that kind of money. Remember they always quote the amount made before taxes to try and overinflate the actual amount of money people are on. Also once your making over a certain amount your hit with the top rate of tax which means for example if your doing overtime outside your contracted hours you can end up with just over €60 after tax for that 9 1/2hr shift. So much for perks C_C

Same for every worker in the country, IR staff aren't unique in that.

JayRoc

Infini2 wrote: »

Pretty much this. Theres simply too much managment in the place and it needs a serious culling down there because the frontline jobs are the one dissapearing cos of them.



It is. We all pay into it wether we go or not. For Several years I never even went to the doctor or rarely once in a year.



Where was the complaint again? -.O



To be honest I dont think it has. Only haters I've seen are the usual trolls on the news sites but the general public which we were out with while picketing seem to support us. Also I dont make minimum €700 a week noone bar clerical or drivers at the top of the scale could make that kind of money. Remember they always quote the amount made before taxes to try and overinflate the actual amount of money people are on. Also once your making over a certain amount your hit with the top rate of tax which means for example if your doing overtime outside your contracted hours you can end up with just over €60 after tax for that 9 1/2hr shift. So much for perks C_C

You had said that
"About 36k would be the lowest end of the scale at depotman grade" which'd be 700 quid a week.
Before tax, obviously. When people discuss annual salaries it's usually understood the amounts mentioned are before tax. And as for being taxed more the more you earn....well, yeah, that's how every employee pays tax.

Your personal experiences on the pickets are interesting, as they seem to contradict what I've heard of people's opinions. Probably the case that most IR customers who've been giving out behind your back probably haven't the stones to argue with you in person.

I have personally offered verbal support to strikers on the picket before when I thought their actions were justified, I just don't think that's the case here.
And I sincerely believe that the majority of your customers would agree.

monument

Focusing on posters will get you infracted and/or banned.

- mod

foggy_lad

may06 wrote: »

And what do you propose IR employees do? Sounds to me like your just jealous of the 'so called perks' the employees allegedly get? They're not happy with their pay and conditions and are well within their rights to go out on strike in defence of what's left of their earnings.

There is no guarantee that their strike action will not finish off the company and leave them with nothing except statutory redundancy and a long search for a job that provides similar perks.

may06

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is no guarantee that their strike action will not finish off the company and leave them with nothing except statutory redundancy and a long search for a job that provides similar perks.

Can you honestly see the entire company & its rail network shutting down completely so?

foggy_lad

may06 wrote: »

Can you honestly see the entire company & its rail network shutting down completely so?

Yes, why wouldn't it be wound up if losing more than what is acceptable to the government and the taxpayer. They are already putting what is left of the freight business at risk with the strikes.

Infini

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes, why wouldn't it be wound up if losing more than what is acceptable to the government and the taxpayer. They are already putting what is left of the freight business at risk with the strikes.

Your forgetting one factor here. While its a company as such its also an INFRASTRUCTURE as well. Shutting down the railway does noone any good not to mention the shytestorm that would be unleased across the entire sector if they tried. The goverment is also the one that helped create the mess by undermining the company via the subsidy and dodgy pass scheme thats affected both rail and busses.

If anything whats needed is a look at the entire thing the lads on the ground have stated repeatedly theres too much managment and bureaucracy up top not to mention poor if not ridiculous decisionmaking. As said before its not just about the pay its the broken agreements, bad decisions and utter mismanagment that are the real problems the pay cut was simply the catalyst to setting off the whole thing. Problem is even though its been explained over and some people keep thinking its just about the pay cut.

may06

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes, why wouldn't it be wound up if losing more than what is acceptable to the government and the taxpayer. They are already putting what is left of the freight business at risk with the strikes.

Absolutely no way will it shut down, to suggest so is ridiculous :eek:

end of the road

wolfmoon87 wrote: »

There were no trains running, so he couldn't have used his ticket anyway.
He has an annual ticket and he is entitled to a refund for the days that there was no service.

and? for a start i'm well aware he's entitled to a refund. however he mentioned credit along with it and the word "dishonest" up to him to clarify his point

end of the road

JayRoc wrote: »

be aware of how the strike is being perceived by most of their customers.

why would they bother, if the majority of the customers are of the opinion "da grdy ie bstrds" then they should just not bother caring. as it isn't the case and much of the public do understand whats going on and why i would imagine the staff do care and really want this to be resolved as quick as possible so the second lot of strikes don't go ahead.

end of the road

noodler wrote: »

It is possible albeit unlikely.

More probably is a large number of taxpayers who have already taken paycuts or lost their jobs during the recession and do not want to be held to ransom by workers looking for more State money which isn't currently available.


I guess its how you spin it.

nobody is being held to ransom, we lost a couple of days travel for the greater good, and it will make people appreciate what they have

end of the road

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes, why wouldn't it be wound up if losing more than what is acceptable to the government and the taxpayer.

every public service loses more then is acceptable to the government. as for the taxpayer what we think is acceptable is irrelevant as many wouldn't want losses and others won't mind as the services benefit them or they recognise services have a benefit to others. that my friend is why we have "the greater good"

foggy_lad wrote: »

They are already putting what is left of the freight business at risk with the strikes.

they aren't. not everyone in the company was on strike. i'm sure drivers from the other unions would have been drafted in to drive the freight if it had to run. as far as i know freight doesn't run on a sunday or monday anyway.

markpb

end of the road wrote: »

nobody is being held to ransom, we lost a couple of days travel for the greater good, and it will make people appreciate what they have

Greater good? I presume you mean better wages for IR staff? Let's not get carried away.

may06

markpb wrote: »

Greater good? I presume you mean better wages for IR staff? Let's not get carried away.

Strike wasn't about better wages -it's already being explained in great detail on this thread what is was about.

noodler

end of the road wrote: »

nobody is being held to ransom, we lost a couple of days travel for the greater good, and it will make people appreciate what they have

I assume you mean make IR employees appreciate their jobs?

Dravokivich

JayRoc wrote: »

You had said that
"About 36k would be the lowest end of the scale at depotman grade" which'd be 700 quid a week.
Before tax, obviously. When people discuss annual salaries it's usually understood the amounts mentioned are before tax. And as for being taxed more the more you earn....well, yeah, that's how every employee pays tax.

Your personal experiences on the pickets are interesting, as they seem to contradict what I've heard of people's opinions. Probably the case that most IR customers who've been giving out behind your back probably haven't the stones to argue with you in person.

I have personally offered verbal support to strikers on the picket before when I thought their actions were justified, I just don't think that's the case here.
And I sincerely believe that the majority of your customers would agree.

It appears the wage bill is an easy target to point at, without other things being considered. So the workers in Irish Rail become a focus. The workers then try to point the focus to people with the free travel passes.

The issue with Irish Rail can't truly be as simple as that. Either the staff are paid too much, or there's too much written off to free travel.

It's all too much of a distraction for my liking.

There's other issue's that Mickydoomsux has been alluding to with management on a local level within a station. If there's so many small things like that just getting brushed aside, who's checking whether or not they add up to a big overall issue?

If you reduce the wage bill and it doesn't fix the finance problem (a outcome I'd expect), what does that tell us? The staff are still being paid too much?

The wage bill should be the last thing looked at. But apart from publishing changes to services/timetables, it doesn't appear to me that Irish Rail have done enough before it, to get to that point.

What else have they done to assess their outgoings and manage it?

end of the road

noodler wrote: »

I assume you mean make IR employees appreciate their jobs?

to try make IE a better managed company. ie staff appreciate their jobs very much hence they are trying to save the company dispite the major shareholders continuous undermining

cdebru

Dravokivich wrote: »

It appears the wage bill is an easy target to point at, without other things being considered. So the workers in Irish Rail become a focus. The workers then try to point the focus to people with the free travel passes.

The issue with Irish Rail can't truly be as simple as that. Either the staff are paid too much, or there's too much written off to free travel.

It's all too much of a distraction for my liking.

There's other issue's that Mickydoomsux has been alluding to with management on a local level within a station. If there's so many small things like that just getting brushed aside, who's checking whether or not they add up to a big overall issue?

If you reduce the wage bill and it doesn't fix the finance problem (a outcome I'd expect), what does that tell us? The staff are still being paid too much?

The wage bill should be the last thing looked at. But apart from publishing changes to services/timetables, it doesn't appear to me that Irish Rail have done enough before it, to get to that point.

What else have they done to assess their outgoings and manage it?

I agree, wages are the easy target, especially for management as addressing waste and lost revenue begs the question why didn't you do this before? Why have you sat on your hands and watched millions being wasted or lost and never did anything ?

Much easier to blame the employees for being on less than the average wage for being overpaid.
It is lazy and poor management the fact that they returned looking for more cuts just 10 months after agreeing to cuts and giving a guarantee they wouldn't be back. One trick ponies comes to mind.

cdebru

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is no guarantee that their strike action will not finish off the company and leave them with nothing except statutory redundancy and a long search for a job that provides similar perks.

Seriously ? The state will close the dart and commuter rail services ? Won't hold my breath on that one. What would be the cost of an extra 100,000 cars trundling into Dublin everyday I wonder ?

cdebru

JayRoc wrote: »

But it's not mandatory, is it?

So you're complaining about being given the option of GP care for less than three quid a week for you (and again, correct me if I'm wrong here) AND your family?

Most people I know would kill for these perks.

To be honest, I think this strike might be a huge blunder on the part of your unions, because apart from anything else it's drawn a lot of publicity to a pay and perks package that the vast majority of your customers weren't aware of.
Striking while IR employees are earning a minimum of 700 bills a week (that's according to one of your own guys earlier in this thread) along with a GP care scheme for peanuts and free travel, etc....just makes yee seem ungrateful and petty to most people, I would imagine.

I don't work for IE so I wasn't complaining about anything, but I love how you can imagine how most people think, you should get a job with Redc they waste money asking people how they think they only need to call you.

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

Yes, why wouldn't it be wound up if losing more than what is acceptable to the government and the taxpayer.

Are we going to roll up the entire public health system at the same time as well?

The overspend there runs in to the tens if not hundreds of millions per annum.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Are we going to roll up the entire public health system at the same time as well?

The overspend there runs in to the tens if not hundreds of millions per annum.

Cuts are being made in the health services that affect everybody from the lowest grades and also patients and those in greatest need who have had their medical cards taken from them, so why should irish rail employees not have to take the same levels of reduction as just about everyone else in the state?