WTF is a kipping pull up??

evo2000

Im confused as to what a kipping pull up is? or what it s purpose is? to me it just seems like the correct way to do an incorrect pull up lol

I was actually thinking of giving crossfit a go just for a change, but after watching a few vids... im not exactly sold... lol

Mellor

Crossfit defines the pull up is defined as arms fully extended at the bottom, chin breaks above the bar at the top. Under that definition, kipping is the fastest, most efficient way to do a pull up. Trying to use a no kipping definition would be a nightmare in max speed and rep conditions. Kipping makes perfect sense for their purposes. They are interested in total power/work, not form.

It's an entirely different movement to a strict pull-up. Not sure why people struggle to separate the two.
It's like the difference between a strict press and a jerk. Nobody ever accuses weight lifters of cheating though.

evo2000

Mellor wrote: »

Crossfit defines the pull up is defined as arms fully extended at the bottom, chin breaks above the bar at the top. Under that definition, kipping is the fastest, most efficient way to do a pull up. Trying to use a no kipping definition would be a nightmare in max speed and rep conditions. Kipping makes perfect sense for their purposes. They are interested in total power/work, not form.

It's an entirely different movement to a strict pull-up. Not sure why people struggle to separate the two.
It's like the difference between a strict press and a jerk. Nobody ever accuses weight lifters of cheating though.

Isnt they re purpose to get fit and strong? isnt the kipping pull up ( if you could even call it a pull up) the least effective of all pull ups for those aims?

From what i can see from kipping it must do terrible things to the persons shoulders...

But what exactly is the goal of the Kipping pull up whats the point of it? what makes it better than a proper pull up?

AngryHippie

Their purpose is to race each other in terms of exertion.

Crossfit is a different beast, and if you don't over-do it has similar levels of injury risk as many other sports, lower than contact sports, but higher than most form based workouts.

Crossfit is a sport. It's a mutant in that it turns individual exercises that you would do in a workout into competition categories.
As Mellor has pointed out above, its not about form, in the same way that it doesn't matter exactly how you do the exercise, but whoever is doing it most efficiently will win, and from that point on, competitors will mimic.

For some categories, the most efficient way will have a higher risk of injury than more controlled ways. That is an inherent risk in the nature of all "fastest", "heaviest" "strongest" sports, its down to the competitor to manage both their commitment to it, and their know their own physical capacity, otherwise they're going to mess themselves up.
Blaming crossfit doesn't really cut it, as there are plenty of champion competitors out there that can strike the balance without destroying themselves in the process.

It isn't a substitute for a gym workout, its a sport in itself, and requires that level of dedication. To do it casually is to play with fire, as you will be missing components of strength or endurance that are necessary to do it effectively.

That is why I don't and probably won't ever take it up.

Mellor

evo2000 wrote: »

Isnt they re purpose to get fit and strong?

No it isn't. Not even remotely the purpose tbh.
To get stronger, they would do dedicated strength work. Like strict pull ups.

But what exactly is the goal of the Kipping pull up whats the point of it? what makes it better than a proper pull up?

I explained above.
Performance in crossfit is ranked by speed and/or volume (reps). Kipping is better than strict pull ups, in this regard, because it's faster and more efficient.
It's a pretty simple idea

evo2000

AngryHippie wrote: »

Their purpose is to race each other in terms of exertion.

Crossfit is a different beast, and if you don't over-do it has similar levels of injury risk as many other sports, lower than contact sports, but higher than most form based workouts.

Crossfit is a sport. It's a mutant in that it turns individual exercises that you would do in a workout into competition categories.
As Mellor has pointed out above, its not about form, in the same way that it doesn't matter exactly how you do the exercise, but whoever is doing it most efficiently will win, and from that point on, competitors will mimic.

For some categories, the most efficient way will have a higher risk of injury than more controlled ways. That is an inherent risk in the nature of all "fastest", "heaviest" "strongest" sports, its down to the competitor to manage both their commitment to it, and their know their own physical capacity, otherwise they're going to mess themselves up.
Blaming crossfit doesn't really cut it, as there are plenty of champion competitors out there that can strike the balance without destroying themselves in the process.

It isn't a substitute for a gym workout, its a sport in itself, and requires that level of dedication. To do it casually is to play with fire, as you will be missing components of strength or endurance that are necessary to do it effectively.

That is why I don't and probably won't ever take it up.

Oh right i get yeah now! so the only real goal of crossfit is to be a good crossfitter, i didnt think it was an actual sport, like boxing or soccer, i thought it was just another way of working out,

I was wondering looking at the videos, and thinking to myself wow some of this is just plain stupid, in terms of trying to get stronger and what not.

But it makes more sense when you put it like that

evo2000

Mellor wrote: »

No it isn't. Not even remotely the purpose tbh.
To get stronger, they would do dedicated strength work. Like strict pull ups.


I explained above.
Performance in crossfit is ranked by speed and/or volume (reps). Kipping is better than strict pull ups, in this regard, because it's faster and more efficient.
It's a pretty simple idea

Yeah i didnt get the idea of who can kip the most competitions i was looking at it more as a workout it didnt really look the most effective way to train.

But if thats the goal of crossfit then it makes sense

Mellor

AngryHippie wrote: »

To do it casually is to play with fire, as you will be missing components of strength or endurance that are necessary to do it effectively.

I'd disagree that you have to be missing components in your training. . There's no reason why a good CF box can't tailor programming to cover necessary areas. I don't do Crossfit either btw, but I'm seen soom programming from a good CF box. I'm under no illusion that this will happen everywhere though.

evo2000 wrote: »

Yeah i didnt get the idea of who can kip the most competitions i was looking at it more as a workout it didnt really look the most effective way to train.

But if thats the goal of crossfit then it makes sense

As an example, here's wokout 7 of the regionals this year.
The goal is to compete the below as fast as possible.

For time:
64 pull-ups
8 overhead squats, 92.5kg

Time cap: 6 minutes

evo2000

Mellor wrote: »

I'd disagree that you have to be missing components in your training. . There's no reason why a good CF box can't tailor programming to cover necessary areas. I don't do Crossfit either btw, but I'm seen soom programming from a good CF box. I'm under no illusion that this will happen everywhere though.


As an example, here's wokout 7 of the regionals this year.
The goal is to compete the below as fast as possible.

Are those real pull ups tho?

Is there like different moduels, like running times and what not aswell?

Mellor

evo2000 wrote: »

Are those real pull ups tho?

Any kind of pull ups you like. If you wanted to do strict pull ups, there's nothing stopping you.

The movement standard covers all types;

Dead hang, kipping or butterfly pull-ups are allowed, as long as all the requirements are met. The arms must be fully extended at the bottom. At the top, the chin must break the horizontal plane of the bar.

AngryHippie

Have a look at FRAN.
even better have a go.

When you are finished puking, ask yourself the question, what makes a "real" pull up ?

I'd define it as pulling yourself up. (No pun, don't make it dirty)

Its not about only using certain muscle groups, which your purist bodybuilder will focus on. Its about pulling.....yourself......up.......fast.

If kipping does it faster then you'll be kipping.

evo2000

Mellor wrote: »

Any kind of pull ups you like. If you wanted to do strict pull ups, there's nothing stopping you.

The movement standard covers all types;

Id bet the house most people dont do strict with the option of kipping tho,

62 strict pull ups would be fair going kipping not so much imo

evo2000

AngryHippie wrote: »

Have a look at FRAN.
even better have a go.

When you are finished puking, ask yourself the question, what makes a "real" pull up ?

I'd define it as pulling yourself up. (No pun, don't make it dirty)

Its not about only using certain muscle groups, which your purist bodybuilder will focus on. Its about pulling.....yourself......up.......fast.

If kipping does it faster then you'll be kipping.

Id be far from puking my guts up lol, the video i watched of Fran is a lad doing overhead squats and kips yeah?

I do boxing and that so circuit training is nothing new to me, My workouts arent purist bodybuilding there made up of compound movements and based on building functional strength, I do alot of weighted dips and wide grip weighted pull ups along with alot of other grips so kips arent all that challenging to me,

Im not trying to diss crossfit i was thinking of giving it a go, but from what ive seen it doesnt seem to be the most effective way to train imo.

Mellor

evo2000 wrote: »

Id bet the house most people dont do strict with the option of kipping tho,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pieK7b4KLL4#t=31

evo2000

AngryHippie wrote: »

Have a look at FRAN.
even better have a go.

When you are finished puking, ask yourself the question, what makes a "real" pull up ?

I'd define it as pulling yourself up. (No pun, don't make it dirty)

Its not about only using certain muscle groups, which your purist bodybuilder will focus on. Its about pulling.....yourself......up.......fast.

If kipping does it faster then you'll be kipping.

Kipping is not a real pull up, go do 62 strict form pull ups and do 62 kipping and tell me which is harder to do, the exercises speak for themselves,

Alf Veedersane

evo2000 wrote: »

Kipping is not a real pull up, go do 62 strict form pull ups and do 62 kipping and tell me which is harder to do, the exercises speak for themselves,

You're missing the point.

No one has said it is a strict pull up.

One is an apple, the other is an orange.

Hanley

Dem Lolz.

LuckyLloyd

I am always amused by how much the kipping pull-up can rustle jimmies across the Internet

Zamboni

I've nout against kipping other than I am sh1t at it but I've always wondered about shoulder issues in the kipping movement.
It seems to be an extreme position for the shoulder joint to be placed in at the top of the movement with the chest forced out and high percentage of bodyweight acting against the joint.



Can't imagine putting that level of stress against the knee/arm/elbow joints during exercise.
I'm no comparative biologist but you'd never catch any of our simian friends in a similar forced position

Any trained kinesiologists on boards for some insight?

top madra

Lol no thanks Jeff.

dylbert

Zamboni wrote: »

I've nout against kipping other than I am sh1t at it but I've always wondered about shoulder issues in the kipping movement.
It seems to be an extreme position for the shoulder joint to be placed in at the top of the movement with the chest forced out and high percentage of bodyweight acting against the joint.



Can't imagine putting that level of stress against the knee/arm/elbow joints during exercise.
I'm no comparative biologist but you'd never catch any of our simian friends in a similar forced position

Any trained kinesiologists on boards for some insight?

That photo looks a bit extreme, a proper kip is more hips and less swinging.

Caliden

top madra wrote: »

Lol no thanks Jeff.

Total count: Zero.

Remmy

I don't have vids to back my point up but I would imagine that the high level crossfit athletes who are very efficient at kipping pullups can also do a high number of strict pullups and heavy weighted pullups so the risk to the shoulder joint isn't as much as it appears to be.

rubadub

Mellor wrote: »

Not sure why people struggle to separate the two

Often the kipping bit is never mentioned, thats where I see a lot of annoyance stemming from. So people might be a a very general forum with few crossfit guys. You will see a guy saying he did 40 pullups and people in disbelief and are then annoyed he did not reveal he was kipping from the start.

So I think people are annoyed since they think people are
A- exagerrating, bragging and purposely not saying they are kipping, or they might call it "cheating" similar to someone cheating doing say bicep curls, someone might purposely and knowingly "cheat" on bicep curls to get a good negative rep. I have seen rules for chinup contests and kipping is clearly spelt out as dissallowed.

B- trying to push/impose a new definition for the word which is widely recognised as being known as non-kipping. Some seem to be feigning ignorance about the fact that if people hear pullup on its own that they presume there is no kipping.

Mellor wrote: »

It's like the difference between a strict press and a jerk. Nobody ever accuses weight lifters of cheating though.

If crossfitters came up with a new definition of racewalking which allowed both feet to be off the ground at the same time then I would expect similar annoyance if they went onto athletic sites and started saying they could racewalk 5 miles in X minutes. -and had to be quizzed over and over until it was revealed they not sticking to the long established & recognised meaning.

Because it is getting used more and more people are giving into it and now instead of saying "pullup" they are saying "strict pullup", while I imagine they would have preferred to be able to still call it simply "pullup" and let the crossfitters say "kipping pullup".

Mellor

rubadub wrote: »

Often the kipping bit is never mentioned, thats where I see a lot of annoyance stemming from. So people might be a a very general forum with few crossfit guys. You will see a guy saying he did 40 pullups and people in disbelief and are then annoyed he did not reveal he was kipping from the start.

I'd say that represents a tiny amount of the time. The overwhelming majority of the time, it's somebody else bringing it up to have a to at crossfit.

So I think people are annoyed since they think people are
A- exagerrating, bragging and purposely not saying they are kipping, or they might call it "cheating" similar to someone cheating doing say bicep curls, someone might purposely and knowingly "cheat" on bicep curls to get a good negative rep. I have seen rules for chinup contests and kipping is clearly spelt out as dissallowed.

B- trying to push/impose a new definition for the word which is widely recognised as being known as non-kipping. Some seem to be feigning ignorance about the fact that if people hear pullup on its own that they presume there is no kipping.

Getting annoyed at how somebody else does an exercise is utterly retarded. Especially when their is very logically reason for their method.
Trying to police zero kipping the CF games regionals would be a nightmare.

If crossfitters came up with a new definition of racewalking which allowed both feet to be off the ground at the same time then I would expect similar annoyance if they went onto athletic sites and started saying they could racewalk 5 miles in X minutes. -and had to be quizzed over and over until it was revealed they not sticking to the long established & recognised meaning.

Because it is getting used more and more people are giving into it and now instead of saying "pullup" they are saying "strict pullup", while I imagine they would have preferred to be able to still call it simply "pullup" and let the crossfitters say "kipping pullup".

If crossfitters were routinely going into a website for pull-ups and bragging then the above would make sense. But they aren't, the reality is it's simply used as an excuse to have a go the majority of the time.

evo2000

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I am always amused by how much the kipping pull-up can rustle jimmies across the Internet

Cause they re a joke lol Everyone but these crossfit elitists can see it,

Cuddlesworth

Zamboni wrote: »

Can't imagine putting that level of stress against the knee/arm/elbow joints during exercise.

Its not like you could possibly place more stress on those joints and be fine right?

I think most people don't actually have the shoulder flexibility for kipping, you need a pretty high level of shoulder rotation. Crossfit relies a lot on that flexibility by placing so much emphasis on over-head squats and snatches. Plus your technique needs to be consistent and perfect on the kip itself, which goes downhill on 50 of anything.

On a side note, I've been working lots on my pull ups recently and the number of people who do normal pull up wrong is surprising. Is it a pull up or reverse bench they are doing? Head behind the arms, core loose, chin pointing up, swinging into their chest, shoulders up and pulling, not active and centered.

evo2000

rubadub wrote: »

Often the kipping bit is never mentioned, thats where I see a lot of annoyance stemming from. So people might be a a very general forum with few crossfit guys. You will see a guy saying he did 40 pullups and people in disbelief and are then annoyed he did not reveal he was kipping from the start.

So I think people are annoyed since they think people are
A- exagerrating, bragging and purposely not saying they are kipping, or they might call it "cheating" similar to someone cheating doing say bicep curls, someone might purposely and knowingly "cheat" on bicep curls to get a good negative rep. I have seen rules for chinup contests and kipping is clearly spelt out as dissallowed.

B- trying to push/impose a new definition for the word which is widely recognised as being known as non-kipping. Some seem to be feigning ignorance about the fact that if people hear pullup on its own that they presume there is no kipping.


If crossfitters came up with a new definition of racewalking which allowed both feet to be off the ground at the same time then I would expect similar annoyance if they went onto athletic sites and started saying they could racewalk 5 miles in X minutes. -and had to be quizzed over and over until it was revealed they not sticking to the long established & recognised meaning.

Because it is getting used more and more people are giving into it and now instead of saying "pullup" they are saying "strict pullup", while I imagine they would have preferred to be able to still call it simply "pullup" and let the crossfitters say "kipping pullup".

Yeah i did 75 pull ups you ll read, then you see these so called pull ups "kipping" aka "bull****"

evo2000

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKp7fBtj81c

Kipping is the way forward !

evo2000

Mellor wrote: »

I'd say that represents a tiny amount of the time. The overwhelming majority of the time, it's somebody else bringing it up to have a to at crossfit.


Getting annoyed at how somebody else does an exercise is utterly retarded. Especially when their is very logically reason for their method.
Trying to police zero kipping the CF games regionals would be a nightmare.



If crossfitters were routinely going into a website for pull-ups and bragging then the above would make sense. But they aren't, the reality is it's simply used as an excuse to have a go the majority of the time.

I wouldnt be a nightmare, it d be simple anything but a proper pull up isnt counted im sure they d get the idea quick

Caliden

Good thing nobody mentioned kipping dips.....

The crossfit gym I was a member of wouldn't allow kipping pull ups until you had perfect strict form, and even at that, they were only allowed at certain times.

Mellor

evo2000 wrote: »

I wouldnt be a nightmare, it d be simple anything but a proper pull up isnt counted im sure they d get the idea quick

Great in theory but I can't see judging being standardised. One person hs zero tolerance for any left movement, one person lets minor movement to pass, etc.

Still don't understand why it bothers you.
How many pull ups can you do?

evo2000

Mellor wrote: »

Great in theory but I can't see judging being standardised. One person hs zero tolerance for any left movement, one person lets minor movement to pass, etc.

Still don't understand why it bothers you.
How many pull ups can you do?

People claiming to do pull ups that arent pull ups is abit annoying to start, but the original reason it bothered me was i was actually thinking about joining crossfit till i watched a few vids.

letting abit go is grand once they re not flapping on the bar and trying to call it a pull up very easy to do.

Alf Veedersane

evo2000 wrote: »

People claiming to do pull ups that arent pull ups is abit annoying to start, but the original reason it bothered me was i was actually thinking about joining crossfit till i watched a few vids.

letting abit go is grand once they re not flapping on the bar and trying to call it a pull up very easy to do.

If you want to join Crossfit, then join and do strict pull ups.

They're going to make you do a kipping pull up if you want to do a strict pull up.

evo2000

Deleted User wrote: »

The crossfit gym I was a member of wouldn't allow kipping pull ups until you had perfect strict form, and even at that, they were only allowed at certain times.

Even then why would you even do a kipping pull up over a strict pull up?? its like ok now i can do a proper pull im gonna do these stupid ones, i just dont see the logic in it.

Alot of debate could be avoided if they were accurately named like "Not Pull Up" or "Bar Flapping" or something along the lines

Mellor

evo2000 wrote: »

Even then why would you even do a kipping pull up over a strict pull up?? its like ok now i can do a proper pull im gonna do these stupid ones, i just dont see the logic in it.

It's already been explained a few times. I've no idea why you are struggling to understand. It's pretty simple.

Alf Veedersane

evo2000 wrote: »

Alot of debate could be avoided if they were accurately named like "Not Pull Up" or "Bar Flapping" or something along the lines

You said you're a boxer....why is shadow boxing called 'shadow boxing' and not 'not actually boxing but throwing punches at thin air'?

evo2000

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

You said you're a boxer....why is shadow boxing called 'shadow boxing' and not 'not actually boxing but throwing punches at thin air'?

You re not your actually trying to ko you re shadow... we do kip boxing aswell where the goal is to look like an absolute spastic then go and brag about how good you are at "boxing"

evo2000

Mellor wrote: »

It's already been explained a few times. I've no idea why you are struggling to understand. It's pretty simple.

Its not really, i dont understand why someone fully knowing a proper pull up is better would go along and do something that is worse.

I dont know why on these cross fit sites, Fran is described as having to do pull ups. "kipping"

Why doesnt crossfit get rid of kipping pull ups infavor of proper ones altogether?

Transform

evo2000 wrote: »

People claiming to do pull ups that arent pull ups is abit annoying to start, but the original reason it bothered me was i was actually thinking about joining crossfit till i watched a few vids.

letting abit go is grand once they re not flapping on the bar and trying to call it a pull up very easy to do.

because thats the best way of going about checking something out, watching vids of random crossfit stuff.

most crossfit gyms will do free intros

Alf Veedersane

evo2000 wrote: »

You re not your actually trying to ko you re shadow... we do kip boxing aswell where the goal is to look like an absolute spastic then go and brag about how good you are at "boxing"

Yeah. You clearly don't want to make a show of yourself.

evo2000

Transform wrote: »

because thats the best way of going about checking something out, watching vids of random crossfit stuff.

most crossfit gyms will do free intros

Watching competitions and the likes.

Transform

evo2000 wrote: »

Watching competitions and the likes.

the only way of knowing is actually doing it for a while, if you dont like it then thats cool also,

its not for everyone and i understand that.

evo2000

Alf Veedersane wrote: »

Yeah. You clearly don't want to make a show of yourself.

Stupid question gets a stupid answer. Comparing shadow boxing to kipping pullups oh dear... lol

Hanley

Caliden wrote: »

Total count: Zero.

Total squats, bench presses, deadlifts, reverse lunges, behind the neck push presses: Zero.

Total kipping pull ups: 100+.

dylbert

Hanley wrote: »

Total squats, bench presses, deadlifts, reverse lunges, behind the neck push presses: Zero.

Total kipping pull ups: 100+.

And you couldn't post a better video to demonstrait a perfect kipping pull-up, spealler has them mastered.

JJayoo

I would imagine kipping is good for grip strength

John Mongo

I'd be one of the first people to have a joke about kipping pull ups as I've a few mates who train in Crossfit gyms, "They're not real pull ups" and so on. It's a crazy looking movement and you'll usually get your mates wound up about them.

Realistically though, I've seen a few examples of Crossfit gyms being quite specific in using Strict Pull Ups for strength work and Kipping Pull Ups when volume is the aim. Even in an earlier post with the rules from a CF Games workout, they go as far as to name different pull up variations as being fair game for the event.

So 9 times out of 10 people differentiate between the two movements when they do them, as they both are used for two different aims. What's the big deal?

Is a Front Squat not a real squat because the bar isn't on your back? A Push Press not a real press since it's not strict? Where does the line get drawn between what's considered a real movement and what isn't?

Hanley

^^ Push Press -v- Strict Press is actually a fantastic way of illustrating similar movements with different purposes. Legend.

evo2000

John Mongo wrote: »

I'd be one of the first people to have a joke about kipping pull ups as I've a few mates who train in Crossfit gyms, "They're not real pull ups" and so on. It's a crazy looking movement and you'll usually get your mates wound up about them.

Realistically though, I've seen a few examples of Crossfit gyms being quite specific in using Strict Pull Ups for strength work and Kipping Pull Ups when volume is the aim. Even in an earlier post with the rules from a CF Games workout, they go as far as to name different pull up variations as being fair game for the event.

So 9 times out of 10 people differentiate between the two movements when they do them, as they both are used for two different aims. What's the big deal?

Is a Front Squat not a real squat because the bar isn't on your back? A Push Press not a real press since it's not strict? Where does the line get drawn between what's considered a real movement and what isn't?

Id weight em up by which is the most effective of the two, which benefits the person the most clearly strict is far better.

Ill put it this way if you d a choice between doing strict pull ups vs kips which would you do?