Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

Dan_Solo

Isn't it strange how any Palestinian who speaks out about Hamas gets lots of nice rewards from Israel and the US while any Israeli who speaks out gets jailed or exiled?

mad muffin

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

This is an interesting way to look at what Israel have done over the years.
http://www.wsm.ie/sites/default/files/ireland%20palestine.jpg

Again.

If Palestinians accepted the 1947 borders they could have had their own state. They wanted it all and lost…

user2011

mad muffin wrote: »

Oh. So the son of Hamas's founder who saw his father for the evil person he was. Decided to do something about it us a soy and a shill?

I like how you guys like to bring up Israelis who are opposed to what Israel is doing. But when someone brings up the same for Hamas, it's to be disregarded?

What are your thoughts on the Israeli ex soldier telling you and me that his government/army are committing war crimes against the Palestinians?

Tuisceanch

h2005 wrote: »

Without growing up there its hard to know. I'd probably have got out of there as quickly as I could.

Very honest answer.

Buzz Killington the third

It looks like Israel are telling people to evacuate areas so they can bomb the tunnels, but I get the feeling that when the schools and hospitals are full of these evacuated people, they will then be the big targets so that the Palestinian people just get wiped out. It seems like Israel wont stop until this happens.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0730/633916-gaza-israel/

Buzz Killington the third

mad muffin wrote: »

Again.

If Palestinians accepted the 1947 borders they could have had their own state. They wanted it all and lost…

Tell me then why Israel didn't accept the borders?

Dan_Solo

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

This is an interesting way to look at what Israel have done over the years.
http://www.wsm.ie/sites/default/files/ireland%20palestine.jpg

Hmmm, it seems from the West Bank region that if you don't fight back Israel steal your country. Funny that, the pro-Israelis here keep telling us that Palestinians have nothing to fear if they just lay down their arms...

mad muffin

Rhys Essien wrote: »

@Mad muffin

What are your views on people like:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Silence_(non-governmental_organization)

Who try to tell it like it is.

I have no strong opinion about any of them.

RustyNut

mad muffin wrote: »

Again.

If Palestinians accepted the 1947 borders they could have had their own state. They wanted it all and lost…

How much isralie land is illegally occupied by palastine ?

mad muffin

user2011 wrote: »

What are your thoughts on the Israeli ex soldier telling you and me that his government/army are committing war crimes against the Palestinians?

That's his opinion. We all have opinions.

That's the beauty of living in a democracy. We can freely express our opinions.

Buzz Killington the third

mad muffin wrote: »

That's the beauty of living in a democracy. We can freely express our opinions.

Except if you're an Israeli and you don't agree with their actions... then you're locked up and classified as a traitor.

A Greedy Algorithm

I've been watching the news coverage of various news channels (Sky, BBC, RT among others) and have noticed how some of the reporters/anchors have made some sly little gestures towards the entire thing. One of them was interviewing an Isreali official and when the camera switched to the next topic i heard him call him a 'freak' lol. Also the Sky news anchor shaking his head in disgust when the footage of the bombing of Gaza seemed to cut short. Little things but funny.

Lone Stone

P_1 wrote: »

I have to say that the treatment of Israelis who are objecting to what's going on in Gaza is frankly disgusting to see in a supposed liberal democracy.

did you see that video of the teenager being pushed around by the police then gagged & bundled of on a van for protesting the attack. I dont have a link it was going around on facebook a week ago, that was shocking. the whole things just makes me think of when the nazi party took over germany, anyone who said anyting was silenced fast. I would love to hear a holocaust survivors opinion on israel and their attitude towards Palestine. Seeing crowds of Israelis just cheering as a civilian population gets bombed is sickening, they have really been dehumanized in their social psyche.

found it

user2011

mad muffin wrote: »

That's his opinion. We all have opinions.

That's the beauty of living in a democracy. We can freely express our opinions.

How did he come to have his opinion?

edit: I fear the I heart Internet is coming here

Buzz Killington the third

Lone Stone wrote: »

did you see that video of the teenager being pushed around by the police then gagged & bundled of in a van for protesting the attack. I dont have a link it was going around on facebook a week ago, that was shocking.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QiV9xn0RbI

Gringo180

mad muffin wrote: »

Again.

If Palestinians accepted the 1947 borders they could have had their own state. They wanted it all and lost…

I dont know whether to laugh or cry at that.

What if say Britain decided to invade us again, and obviously with the might of there army we were defeated. Would that mean it would be okay for them to occupy us, people who have lived on this land for 100's of years?

mad muffin

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

Tell me then why Israel didn't accept the borders?

And I quote

The Plan was accepted by the Jewish public, except for its fringes, and by the Jewish Agency despite its perceived limitations.[5][6] With a few exceptions, the Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution[7] and indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division.[8] Their reason was that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.[6][9]

Immediately after adoption of the Resolution by the General Assembly, the civil war broke out.[10] The partition plan was not implemented.[11]

Buzz Killington the third

mad muffin wrote: »

And I quote

So pure greed then.

WakeUp

UNRWA Strongly condemns Israeli shelling of it's school in Gaza as a serious violation of international law:

Statement by commissioner general Pierre Krahenbuhl -

"Last night, children were killed as they slept next to their parents on the floor of a classroom in a UN designated shelter in Gaza. Children killed in their sleep; this is an affront to all of us, a source of universal shame. Today the world stands disgraced.

We have visited the site and gathered evidence. We have analysed fragments, examined craters and other damage. Our initial assessment is that it was Israeli artillery that hit our school, in which 3,300 people had sought refuge. We believe there were at least three impacts. It is too early to give a confirmed official death toll. But we know that there were multiple civilian deaths and injuries including of women and children and the UNRWA guard who was trying to protect the site. These are people who were instructed to leave their homes by the Israeli army.

The precise location of the Jabalia Elementary Girls School and the fact that it was housing thousands of internally displaced people was communicated to the Israeli army seventeen times, to ensure its protection; the last being at ten to nine last night, just hours before the fatal shelling.

I condemn in the strongest possible terms this serious violation of international law by Israeli forces.

This is the sixth time that one of our schools has been struck. Our staff, the very people leading the humanitarian response are being killed. Our shelters are overflowing. Tens of thousands may soon be stranded in the streets of Gaza, without food, water and shelter if attacks on these areas continue.

We have moved beyond the realm of humanitarian action alone. We are in the realm of accountability. I call on the international community to take deliberate international political action to put an immediate end to the continuing carnage. "
http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/official-statements/unrwa-strongly-condemns-israeli-shelling-its-school-gaza-serious

notfromhere

Why would u go to Israel and do that, got what he deserved.

mad muffin

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QiV9xn0RbI

The guy wouldn't show his ID then resisted arrest.

wes

notfromhere wrote: »

Why would u go to Israel and do that, got what he deserved.

Really? For protesting peacefully? Wow......

KahBoom

mad muffin wrote: »

Oh. So the son of Hamas's founder who saw his father for the evil person he was. Decided to do something about it is a spy and a shill?

I like how you guys like to bring up Israelis who are opposed to what Israel is doing. But when someone brings up the same for Hamas, it's to be disregarded?

You just saw several other posters, dismantle that same idiotic argument, when greenflash made it above.

Do you deny that the man was a spy for Israel, working with Shin Bet?

What's your opinion of Mordechai Vanunu - honorable whistleblower, or traitor?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordechai_Vanunu

One directly worked with another country, against his own, the other just informed the public worldwide about an illegal nuclear weapons program.

Rhys Essien

Lone Stone wrote: »

did you see that video of the teenager being pushed around by the police then gagged & bundled of on a bike(edit) for protesting the attack. I dont have a link it was going around on facebook a week ago, that was shocking. the whole things just makes me think of when the nazi party took over germany, anyone who said anyting was silenced fast. I would love to hear a holocaust survivors opinion on israel and their attitude towards Palestine. Seeing crowds of Israelis just cheering as a civilian population gets bombed is sickening, they have really been dehumanized in their social psyche.

When asked how he, as the son of Holocaust survivors, felt about Israel’s operation in Gaza,Norman Finkelstein replied:

It has been a long time since I felt any emotional connection with the state of Israel, which relentlessly and brutally and inhumanly keeps these vicious, murderous wars. It is a vandal state. There is a Russian writer who once described vandal states as Genghis Khan with a telegraph. Israel is Genghis Khan with a computer. I feel no emotion of affinity with that state. I have some good friends and their families there, and of course I would not want any of them to be hurt. That said, sometimes I feel that Israel has come out of the boils of the hell, a satanic state

Buzz Killington the third

mad muffin wrote: »

The guy wouldn't show his ID then resisted arrest.

No, he wouldn't hand over his passport! Jesus you'd defend anything they do.

Tuisceanch

Buzz Killington the third wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QiV9xn0RbI

Here is some information from his blog.
http://mondoweiss.net/2011/06/a-young-american-jew-describes-being-arrested-for-standing-in-opposition-to-the-jerusalem-day-parade.html

notfromhere

Would u protest for hamas in Israel,fair play.That is no different to what the Gaurds done in Dublin, a few years ago

pedro1234

Given the current dialogue, it appears the Israeli supporters on here have not read the following, so I'll post it again, given that it was around 5am when I posted it and you can be forgiven for missing it.

How, exactly, can you defend Israel based on the following?

pedro1234 wrote: »

For those interested, here’s a little history lesson regarding the Palestinian conflict.

Zionists think Palestine is their promised land because their religion says so.
Hamas think it’s their promised land because their religion says so.

Both are idiots, hell bent on genocide. Lets go back in time for a second.

The Palestinians Arabs have been there since the Roman Empire, which is a fairly long time. Zionism emerged in the late 1880s – Theodor Herzl founded it. Eretz Israel, the name for Palestine in the Jewish religion, had been revered throughout the centuries by generations of Jews as a place for holy pilgrimage, never as a future secular state. Jewish tradition and religion clearly instruct Jews to await the coming of the promised Messiah ‘at the end of times’ before they can return to Eretz Israel as a sovereign people in a Jewish theocracy.

As they saw it, Palestine was occupied by ‘strangers’ (aka not Jewish), despite the fact that the Palestinians were there since the Roman times. Zionists first arrived in 1882. Until the occupation of Palestine by Britain in 1918, Zionism was a blend of nationalist ideology and colonialist practice. Zionists made up no more than 5% of the country’s overall population at the time.

The religious people in the west regarded the return of Jews to Palestine as a chapter in the divine scheme, precipitating the second coming of Jesus. This religious zeal inspired Lloyd George, who was the British prime minister at the time, to act with greater commitment for the success of Zionism. Lloyd had a great disdain for Arabs, and he called Palestinians “Mohammedans”.

The more precise strategies of how to best take over Palestine as a whole and create a nation-state in the country, or in part of it, were a later development closely associated with British ideas of how best to solve the conflict Britain itself had done so much to exacerbate.

British Foreign Secretary Lord Balfour gave the Zionist movement his promise in 1917 to establish a national home for the Jews in Palestine, he opened the door to the endless conflict that would soon engulf the country.

By the end of the 1920s, the British made an attempt to solve the conflict. Until then the British had treated Palestine as a state within the British sphere of influence, not as a colony. They tried to put in place a political structure that would represent both communities on equal footing in the state’s parliament as well as government. The Palestinians made up the majority of between eighty and ninety percent of the total population, so they refused the British suggestion of parity. However, shortly after this they offered to accept it as a basis for negotiations but by this time the Zionist leaders rejected it. The Palestinian uprising in 1929 was a direct result of Britains refusal to implement at least their promise of parity after the Palestinians had been willing to set aside the democratic principal of majoritarian politics, which Britain had championed as the basis for negotiations in all the other Arab states within the sphere of influence.

After the 1929 uprising the Labour government in London appeared inclined to embrace the Palestinian demands, but the Zionist lobby succeeded in reorientating the British government back on the Balfourian track.

Another uprising took place in 1936. This forced the British to place more troops in Palestine. The Palestinian leadership was exiled at this time.

Between these two uprisings the Zionist leadership wasted no time in working out their plans for an exclusively Jewish presence in Palestine. In 1937 they then accepted a modest portion of land, and then in 1942 they demanded all of Palestine for themselves. They announced that the Zionist project could only be realised through the creation of Palestine as a purely Jewish state.

The British allowed the Zionist movement to carve out an independent enclave for itself in Palestine in the late 1930s. It was one British officer Orde Charles Wingate who made Zionist leaders realise Jewish statehood had to be closely associated with militarism and an army to protect Jewish enclaves and colonies, but alsobecause of acts of armed aggression were an effective deterrent against the possible resistance of the local Palestinians.

Wingate had a very religious upbringing and he quickly became enchanted with the Zionist dream. He transformed paramilitary organisation of the Hagana (it means defense in Hebrew). Under Wingate, the Hagana quickly became the military arm of the Jewish Agency.

The Arab revolt gave the Hagana members a chance to practise the military tactics Wingate had taught. The main objective was to intimidate Palestinian communities who were in close proximity of Jewish settlements. The Hagana unit and a British company jointly attacked a village on the border between Israel and Lebanon and held it for a few hours.

The Hagana also gained valuable military experience in the second world war when they volunteered for the British war effort. Others stayed behind to infiltrate the 1200 Palestinian villages that had dotted the countryside for hundreds of years.

In 1948, 800,000 Palestinians were uprooted and 531 villages destroyed. None of those would have happened if it wasn’t for British influence. The only reason Hamas exist, was because there was a need for a Palestinian defense. Hamas help out locally, and what they ask for in return is support for their terrorist organisation. They blackmail people; take the sick to hospital so that you owe them a favour. It’s very mobbish. They definitely need to be removed in order to allow a secular Palestinian country to prevail, but I completely condemn how Israel are going about this. They’re not really going after Hamas, they’re going after Hamas AND the innocent Palestinians who have more right to the land than they do, in my view. But at this point both communities are there now and it has to be shared. Zionism is Jewish religious fanaticism and it is disgusting. Hamas are the same but from an Arab standpoint. This is a religious “war”.

Israel didn’t exist before the genocide in 1948. The land was stolen and wanted exclusively for Jews because some bronze age book. This is sectarian.

Similarly, Hamas want the land exclusively for Arabs because of some bronze age book. This is also sectarian.

If you support Israel, then you’re a religious sectarian bigot.
If you support Hamas, then you’re a religious sectarian bigot.

The only moral stance possible here is the support of the Palestinians, to want a secular future for them.

Extract from the Hamas 1988 charter: “strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine” (Article Six). Article Thirty-One of the Charter states: “Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions—Islam, Christianity and Judaism—to coexist in peace and quiet with each other.” That demonstrates that their goals are also religious.

hatrickpatrick

mad muffin wrote: »

The guy wouldn't show his ID then resisted arrest.

It was a wrongful arrest to begin with. He was peacefully protesting, in a decent democracy they would have left him completely alone.

notfromhere

Have to say i agree with MMuffin did not show his id,