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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

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    #212
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_terrorism

    A quote from the above link.."terrorism is a pejorative term. It is a word with intrinsically negative connotations that is generally applied to one's enemies and opponents, or to those with whom one disagrees and would otherwise prefer to ignore."

    The Collins concise English dictionary defines Terrorism as .."the systematic use of violence and intimidation to achieve some goal". By that definition both sides can be labelled terrorists and so concentrating on such meaningless terminology is disingenuous. The real question is, who has the power to effect a peaceful settlement and avoid the carnage? and the answer, in my opinion, is unquestionably Israel. Defend your position by all means but have the moral courage and honesty to acknowledge that the slaughtered Palestinians had as much right as you to a normal life or otherwise take your brave words to the battlefield and fight for your precious beliefs.


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    #213
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    mad muffin wrote: »
    If you guys are so concerned. I suggest you hire a boat or a plane and head over to Gaza, instead of banging away at your keyboards.

    My pints are not one or lost in a one sided argument.

    Israel us wrong and the Palestinians are right?

    The Middle East is not as black and white as that.
    At least you had the sense to call these "pints" rather than "points". How apt.


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    #214
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    mad muffin wrote: »
    If you guys are so concerned. I suggest you hire a boat or a plane and head over to Gaza, instead of banging away at your keyboards.

    I rather not be murdered by the IDF.... seeing as they (the IDF) kill people in international waters traveling via boat, and the IDF destroyed the Gaza airport, that would be impossible.
    mad muffin wrote: »
    My pints are not one or lost in a one sided argument.

    You seem to be openly justifying the murder of civilians. This will result in people asking questions.
    mad muffin wrote: »
    Israel us wrong and the Palestinians are right?

    The Middle East is not as black and white as that.

    No one is claiming its black and white, but you seem to only concentrate on how the Palestinians are at fault for Zionist aggression, effectively victim blaming.


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    #215
    sid waddell
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,664 ✭✭✭sid waddell


    mad muffin wrote: »
    If you guys are so concerned. I suggest you hire a boat or a plane and head over to Gaza, instead of banging away at your keyboards.

    My pints are not one or lost in a one sided argument.

    Israel us wrong and the Palestinians are right?

    The Middle East is not as black and white as that.
    Pints is right, I'd say - you sound drunk, and you're completely losing the plot.

    You're not Ian O'Doherty, by any chance?


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    #216
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    mad muffin wrote: »
    If you guys are so concerned. I suggest you hire a boat or a plane and head over to Gaza, instead of banging away at your keyboards.

    My pints are not one or lost in a one sided argument.

    Israel us wrong and the Palestinians are right?

    The Middle East is not as black and white as that.

    That's nice. so are you going to answer any of the number of questions that have been put to you by various posters ?..I can quote some of the again for you if you like...


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    #217
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    I'm drunk because of a typo and losing the plot because of unpopular opinion in this thread?

    I see. I tell you what I'm not losing.

    I'm not losing any sleep over your righteous indignation.


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    #218
    listermint
    Registered Users Posts: 33,727 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Lads, its pointless engaging Muffs.

    He derailed the thread yesterday to the point of no return and is doing the same here.

    Im of the firm opinion he doesnt actually care about the thread content, the context or anything to do with the conflict. And is just putting forward a rival argument (and in most of the case no argument at all just one liners designed to piss off posters)

    Based on that, He is not worth responding to.

    His attempts to get the thread closed are fairly blatantly obvious and are poorly disguised.


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    #219
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    ^^ There are a few posters like that in these Israel/Palestine threads, and the problem is, if you don't respond to them - despite how disingenuous they are - then they control the narrative of the debate, which is the real aim.

    They usually operate just below the level where mod action can come into play, so often there is little alternative but to engage them (to prevent controlling of narrative), which unfortunately has to result in the usual tedious circular bullshít every time (that's just unavoidable).


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    #220
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Interview from the son of one of founding members of Hamas.
    “Hamas is not seeking coexistence and compromise. Hamas is seeking conquest and taking over. And by the way, the destruction of the State of Israel is not Hamas’s final destination. Hamas final destination is building the Islamic caliphate, which means an Islamic state under rubble of every other civilization.” 


    I don't support Palestinian civilians getting blown apart but as long as these lunatics are controlling Gaza its not going to change.


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    #221
    Herb Powell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,097 ✭✭✭Herb Powell


    mad muffin wrote: »
    If you guys are so concerned. I suggest you hire a boat or a plane and head over to Gaza, instead of banging away at your keyboards.

    I'd rather not, last time we sent over an aid ship the Israelis captured it and kidnapped the people on board.


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    #222
    KahBoom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 282 ✭✭KahBoom


    cisk wrote: »
    Interview from the son of one of founding members of Hamas.

    I don't support Palestinian civilians getting blown apart but as long as these lunatics are controlling Gaza its not going to change.
    That guy is a well known spy and shill:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef#Espionage_career


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    #223
    BeerWolf
    Registered Users Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭BeerWolf


    RustyNut wrote: »
    Can you just define your idea of a terrorist please?

    Obviously THIS


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    #224
    user2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,071 ✭✭✭user2011


    cisk wrote: »
    Interview from the son of one of founding members of Hamas.



    I don't support Palestinian civilians getting blown apart but as long as these lunatics are controlling Gaza its not going to change.

    It was changing, Hamas and Fatah had formed a unity government just before this offensive from Israel began.


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    #225
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    P_1 wrote: »
    To give a comparative example, you have Catholic and Protestant branches of Christianity in a similar manner to having Shia and Sunni branches of Islam.

    So are ISIS Shia and Hamas Suni ?


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    #226
    greenflash
    Registered Users Posts: 499 ✭✭greenflash


    KahBoom wrote: »
    That guy is a well known spy and shill:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef#Espionage_career

    LOL. So the opinion and actions of a man who was born and raised a Palestinian militant but changed his views for the sake of his own people are dismissed because it doesn't suit your populist internet argument? The defenders of Hamas will stoop to the lowest levels possible to defend the indefensible.


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    #227
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    greenflash wrote: »
    The defenders of Hamas will stoop to the lowest levels possible to defend the indefensible.

    That's an ironic statement coming from a supporter of Israel.

    And for what it's worth, nobody here supports Hamas. They support the people of Palestine.


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    #228
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    Tail Docker wrote: »
    Phew! Great. You mean they didn't actually blow up that block of apartments! That's fantastic. I was thinking about all them people losing their homes.

    No, wait, you mean they did blow it to rubble, just the warning time was actually 3 minutes?? Damn, that's ****ty behaviour for an Army. Was it a Military block of flats? An apartment block of mass destruction? Or was it a tunnel? One of them sky-tunnels?
    I mean nothing other than the video was edited.


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    #229
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    greenflash wrote: »
    LOL. So the opinion and actions of a man who was born and raised a Palestinian militant but changed his views for the sake of his own people are dismissed because it doesn't suit your populist internet argument? The defenders of Hamas will stoop to the lowest levels possible to defend the indefensible.

    He could have changed his mind for any reason. Like money. Or a chance to get to the US.

    In any case the aims of Hamas don't matter. If you punish a whole people for what they would do - or some of them would do - were they in power you would carte blanch to remove the liberty from, and kill or ethnically cleanse large groups of populations. Christian fundies not excepted.


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    #230
    wretcheddomain
    Registered Users Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭wretcheddomain


    Geomy wrote: »
    So are ISIS Shia and Hamas Suni ?

    The vast majority of Muslim Palestinians, if not all, are Sunni, including Hamas. However, about 7% of Palestinians are Christian.

    Most of the violence of ISIS is perpetrated against Shia. ISIS are looking for a Sunni Caliphate void of Shia Muslims.


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    #231
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    greenflash wrote: »
    LOL. So the opinion and actions of a man who was born and raised a Palestinian militant but changed his views for the sake of his own people are dismissed because it doesn't suit your populist internet argument? The defenders of Hamas will stoop to the lowest levels possible to defend the indefensible.

    The man hasn't been in the Palestinian territories for years, so I would question whether anything he has to say, has any validity anymore.


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    #232
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    greenflash wrote: »
    LOL. So the opinion and actions of a man who was born and raised a Palestinian militant but changed his views for the sake of his own people are dismissed because it doesn't suit your populist internet argument? The defenders of Hamas will stoop to the lowest levels possible to defend the indefensible.





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    #233
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    wes wrote: »
    Terrorists are non-state actors. You point out Hamas was elected, and I would also like to further point out they are a part of a unity government as well. So they are not terrorists.

    When they were elected, they removed call for the destruction of Israel from the election manifesto:

    Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

    That above fact has been mentioned by me several times in these recent threads, and I think even in reply to you as well. Why do you ignore this fact? Are you trying to justify the murder of civilians?

    Also, again the same rational can be applied in regards to Israel, seeing as every single government expanded settlements (settler colonialism is a genocidal in nature, just look at what happened to the Native Americans), and we see elected Israeli politicians calling for genocide openly during the current Gaza assault.
    To be fair the following lines are still in it.
    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it″

    "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'



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    #234
    Gringo180
    Registered Users Posts: 9,205 ✭✭✭Gringo180


    Im sick to my stomach reading the Israeli sympathisers posts on here, nobody with any decency can defend what there doing in Gaza. Even before Hamas was created they were killing women and children and when the PLO signed the Oslo Accord and said they would recognise Israel as a jewish state the Israeli's continued to build illegal settlements. Its the Israelis who are breaking all these deals and people come on here with the cheek to say its all Hamas's fault when in fact Israel as a state was founded on Zionist and Jewish terrorism (educate yourselfs on the Stern gang and the Irgun).


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    #235
    FTA69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,252 ✭✭✭FTA69


    greenflash wrote: »
    LOL. So the opinion and actions of a man who was born and raised a Palestinian militant but changed his views for the sake of his own people are dismissed because it doesn't suit your populist internet argument? The defenders of Hamas will stoop to the lowest levels possible to defend the indefensible.

    He was an informer for the Israelis who betrayed his own people. Irish history is littered with similar figures, very few of whom are credible or in any way laudable.


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    #236
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    h2005 wrote: »
    To be fair the following lines are still in it.
    "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it″

    "The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, 'O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.'


    It wasn't in the election manifesto that they were elected under. Remember the point I was replying to was that Palestinians voted for the destruction of Israel, which was explicitly dropped by Hamas to get themselves elected.

    I agree that Hamas charter is loathsome, but you will hear similar things from the other side as well, especially during the most recent conflict.


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    #237
    Buzz Killington the third
    Closed Accounts Posts: 938 ✭✭✭Buzz Killington the third


    This is an interesting way to look at what Israel have done over the years.
    http://www.wsm.ie/sites/default/files/ireland%20palestine.jpg


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    #238
    mad muffin
    Registered Users Posts: 8,034 ✭✭✭mad muffin


    KahBoom wrote: »
    That guy is a well known spy and shill:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef#Espionage_career

    Oh. So the son of Hamas's founder who saw his father for the evil person he was. Decided to do something about it is a spy and a shill?

    I like how you guys like to bring up Israelis who are opposed to what Israel is doing. But when someone brings up the same for Hamas, it's to be disregarded?


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    #239
    Rhys Essien
    Registered Users Posts: 3,029 ✭✭✭Rhys Essien


    @Mad muffin

    What are your views on people like:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Finkelstein
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miko_Peled
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Silence_(non-governmental_organization)

    Who try to tell it like it is.


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    #240
    Tuisceanch
    Registered Users Posts: 735 ✭✭✭Tuisceanch


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvyBx8JB0K4

    Since it is apparent that there are Israeli citizens who are willing to protest against the actions of their government I would like to pose a question. If you were an Israeli citizen of Jewish descent would you align yourself with these people and would you be prepared to suffer the possible consequences of your actions e.g. job prospects etc.? Alternatively would you as an avid nationalist and supporter of the policies of your government be prepared to join the IDF and engage in ground fighting?


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    #241
    h2005
    Registered Users Posts: 1,384 ✭✭✭h2005


    Tuisceanch wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mvyBx8JB0K4

    Since it is apparent that there are Israeli citizens who are willing to protest against the actions of their government I would like to pose a question. If you were an Israeli citizen of Jewish descent would you align yourself with these people and would you be prepared to suffer the possible consequences of your actions e.g. job prospects etc.? Alternatively would you as an avid nationalist and supporter of the policies of your government be prepared to join the IDF and engage in ground fighting?
    Without growing up there its hard to know. I'd probably have got out of there as quickly as I could.


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