Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

jank

Davarus Walrus wrote: »

Do the leadership in Gaza and the West Bank not communicate? Again, I'm fairly uneducated when it comes to all this stuff, but I'd presume they both developed a mutual disliked of the Israeli's?

Hamas are not your normal political party. When they won the elections in 2006 they then proceeded to carry out a purge against members of Fatah and its supporters in Gaza.

jank

Karl Stein wrote: »

Israel already rules Gaza. Gaza is an enormous internment camp - only for tunnels supplying it with its needs it would be immeasurably more impoverished.

There is nothing stopping Egypt from opening its borders to Gaza but they like Israel brand Hamas as a terrorist organisation and have banned them.

jank

comongethappy wrote: »

Are there settlements planned for Gaza?

What the others wont tell you is that Israel had settlements in Gaza but disbanded them all in 2005 and handed the running of Gaza entirely over to the Palestinians. Since then instead of the leadership trying to improve their peoples lot they have gone on to create a cult of martyrdom, exploit young poor men and women into giving up their lives for the sake of Alah and eternal bliss in an effort to win the war via the hearts and minds of the west with the blood of their own.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_disengagement_from_Gaza

Those who say that Israel want this land or either unaware of the reality of deliberately lying. Why did they withdraw in the first place? They withdrew, demolished settlements and all they got were thousands of rockets fired into Israel.

Karl Stein

jank wrote: »

There is nothing stopping Egypt from opening its borders to Gaza but they like Israel brand Hamas as a terrorist organisation and have banned them.

I'll remind you, again, that I'm not taking your 'janking off' seriously but am speaking to those more critically minded among us who might think you have legitimate points.

People interested in the truth will know well that 'Egypt' (not the Egyptian population) has plenty of reasons not to open the border with Gaza, principle among them being that the most powerful section of Egyptian society is bankrolled by the pro-Israel US and its allies.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

A Palestinian sunni muslim religious group set up in the 1980's, primarily nationalistic.

Going to take a leaf out of Sean Hannitys book here but are they not a Terrorist Organisation? Yes/No?

jank

Karl Stein wrote: »

I'll remind you, again, that I'm not taking your 'janking off' seriously but am speaking to those more critically minded among us who might think you have legitimate points.

People interested in the truth will know well that 'Egypt' (not the Egyptian population) has plenty of reasons not to open the border with Gaza, principle among them being that the most powerful section of Egyptian society is bankrolled by the pro-Israel US and its allies.

Really, even the Muslim Brotherhood didn't open the borders to Hamas. Were they controlled by Israel and the US. *chuckle*

AngryHippie

jank wrote: »

Going to take a leaf out of Sean Hannitys book here but are they not a Terrorist Organisation? Yes/No?

Do you really want to make it all about them ?

Here is a reasonably accurate list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations

Now the flip side, are Israel not actively, knowingly and openly engaging in any of the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_crime

So does can a terrorist organization be deemed to justify war crimes against a civilian population ?
Would you have held that same view 100 years ago in Ireland ?


Israel's current course of action is not going to solve anything without going full steam all the way to the Med. and if that happens, I'm damn sure Tehran, Damascus, Jordan, Lebanon, Riyadh, Baghdad, Pakistan, Yemen and quite a few other nations are going to have issues with it.
That seems to have been Bibi's mandate throughout this campaign, and he should already be on his way to a war crimes trial for it IMO.

The only way to get an outcome without one or the other side being wiped out is a compromise on both sides, and that is something Israel have refused to accept since 1967. They have given with one hand, taken away with the other every time that a solution was in sight.

Palestine was damn close to getting recognition as a self governing entity before Israel stuck it's oar in to prevent them getting a voice in the UN, they know exactly what they are doing, they've got a manual on how to present it, and no matter how it gets dressed up, they are committing criminal acts. Thats not to say that there aren't plenty of Hamas militants that need trials, but until the Israelis stop assigning legitimacy to their current actions, there is no incentive for the Palestinians to do the same.

Karl Stein

jank wrote: »

Really, even the Muslim Brotherhood didn't open the borders to Hamas. Were they controlled by Israel and the US. *chuckle*

This is 'Janking off' and why most people with half a brain ignore this.

pedro1234

For those interested, here’s a little history lesson regarding the Palestinian conflict.

Zionists think Palestine is their promised land because their religion says so.
Hamas think it’s their promised land because their religion says so.

Both are idiots, hell bent on genocide. Lets go back in time for a second.

The Palestinians Arabs have been there since the Roman Empire, which is a fairly long time. Zionism emerged in the late 1880s – Theodor Herzl founded it. Eretz Israel, the name for Palestine in the Jewish religion, had been revered throughout the centuries by generations of Jews as a place for holy pilgrimage, never as a future secular state. Jewish tradition and religion clearly instruct Jews to await the coming of the promised Messiah ‘at the end of times’ before they can return to Eretz Israel as a sovereign people in a Jewish theocracy.

As they saw it, Palestine was occupied by ‘strangers’ (aka not Jewish), despite the fact that the Palestinians were there since the Roman times. Zionists first arrived in 1882. Until the occupation of Palestine by Britain in 1918, Zionism was a blend of nationalist ideology and colonialist practice. Zionists made up no more than 5% of the country’s overall population at the time.

The religious people in the west regarded the return of Jews to Palestine as a chapter in the divine scheme, precipitating the second coming of Jesus. This religious zeal inspired Lloyd George, who was the British prime minister at the time, to act with greater commitment for the success of Zionism. Lloyd had a great disdain for Arabs, and he called Palestinians “Mohammedans”.

The more precise strategies of how to best take over Palestine as a whole and create a nation-state in the country, or in part of it, were a later development closely associated with British ideas of how best to solve the conflict Britain itself had done so much to exacerbate.

British Foreign Secretary Lord Balfour gave the Zionist movement his promise in 1917 to establish a national home for the Jews in Palestine, he opened the door to the endless conflict that would soon engulf the country.

By the end of the 1920s, the British made an attempt to solve the conflict. Until then the British had treated Palestine as a state within the British sphere of influence, not as a colony. They tried to put in place a political structure that would represent both communities on equal footing in the state’s parliament as well as government. The Palestinians made up the majority of between eighty and ninety percent of the total population, so they refused the British suggestion of parity. However, shortly after this they offered to accept it as a basis for negotiations but by this time the Zionist leaders rejected it. The Palestinian uprising in 1929 was a direct result of Britains refusal to implement at least their promise of parity after the Palestinians had been willing to set aside the democratic principal of majoritarian politics, which Britain had championed as the basis for negotiations in all the other Arab states within the sphere of influence.

After the 1929 uprising the Labour government in London appeared inclined to embrace the Palestinian demands, but the Zionist lobby succeeded in reorientating the British government back on the Balfourian track.

Another uprising took place in 1936. This forced the British to place more troops in Palestine. The Palestinian leadership was exiled at this time.

Between these two uprisings the Zionist leadership wasted no time in working out their plans for an exclusively Jewish presence in Palestine. In 1937 they then accepted a modest portion of land, and then in 1942 they demanded all of Palestine for themselves. They announced that the Zionist project could only be realised through the creation of Palestine as a purely Jewish state.

The British allowed the Zionist movement to carve out an independent enclave for itself in Palestine in the late 1930s. It was one British officer Orde Charles Wingate who made Zionist leaders realise Jewish statehood had to be closely associated with militarism and an army to protect Jewish enclaves and colonies, but alsobecause of acts of armed aggression were an effective deterrent against the possible resistance of the local Palestinians.

Wingate had a very religious upbringing and he quickly became enchanted with the Zionist dream. He transformed paramilitary organisation of the Hagana (it means defense in Hebrew). Under Wingate, the Hagana quickly became the military arm of the Jewish Agency.

The Arab revolt gave the Hagana members a chance to practise the military tactics Wingate had taught. The main objective was to intimidate Palestinian communities who were in close proximity of Jewish settlements. The Hagana unit and a British company jointly attacked a village on the border between Israel and Lebanon and held it for a few hours.

The Hagana also gained valuable military experience in the second world war when they volunteered for the British war effort. Others stayed behind to infiltrate the 1200 Palestinian villages that had dotted the countryside for hundreds of years.

In 1948, 800,000 Palestinians were uprooted and 531 villages destroyed. None of those would have happened if it wasn’t for British influence. The only reason Hamas exist, was because there was a need for a Palestinian defense. Hamas help out locally, and what they ask for in return is support for their terrorist organisation. They blackmail people; take the sick to hospital so that you owe them a favour. It’s very mobbish. They definitely need to be removed in order to allow a secular Palestinian country to prevail, but I completely condemn how Israel are going about this. They’re not really going after Hamas, they’re going after Hamas AND the innocent Palestinians who have more right to the land than they do, in my view. But at this point both communities are there now and it has to be shared. Zionism is Jewish religious fanaticism and it is disgusting. Hamas are the same but from an Arab standpoint. This is a religious “war”.

Israel didn’t exist before the genocide in 1948. The land was stolen and wanted exclusively for Jews because some bronze age book. This is sectarian.

Similarly, Hamas want the land exclusively for Arabs because of some bronze age book. This is also sectarian.

If you support Israel, then you’re a religious sectarian bigot.
If you support Hamas, then you’re a religious sectarian bigot.

The only moral stance possible here is the support of the Palestinians, to want a secular future for them.

Extract from the Hamas 1988 charter: “strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine” (Article Six). Article Thirty-One of the Charter states: “Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions—Islam, Christianity and Judaism—to coexist in peace and quiet with each other.” That demonstrates that their goals are also religious.

A Primal Nut

Hamas have used human shields as much as possible knowing that Israel would target them. They knew their rockets wouldn't cause any damage except to provoke Israel.

And of course the West in this conflict have played into their hands by criticising Israel. Hamas must be delighted with how things have gone.

jank

Karl Stein wrote: »

This is 'Janking off' and why most people with half a brain ignore this.

Its a simple question. Do the US and Israel control the MB in Egypt as you claim?
Your lack of a direct response will indicate in the negative of the question.

AngryHippie

jank wrote: »

Its a simple question. Do the US and Israel control the MB in Egypt as you claim?
Your lack of a direct response will indicate in the negative of the question.

He never said controlled. He said bankrolled.

He also never said the Muslim Brotherhood. You did.

He said Egypt. As in the typically 4th (or so) highest receiver of US foreign aid in a given year.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_foreign_aid
Which they are more than ready to use as a stick with which to manipulate Egyptian affairs.http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/29/us-aid-egypt-patrick-leahy-sham-trial
http://www.propublica.org/blog/item/f.a.q.-on-u.s.-aid-to-egypt-where-does-the-money-go-who-decides-how-spent

To pretend that isn't the case suggests that you are a shill for some other agenda, or that you are blind to the facts. Either way, it does nothing to bolster your credibility or argument.

Does that answer the question ?

jank

It still does not explain why they wont open the border to Gaza. When the MB were in power they did not open the borders to Gaza. Were the MB bankrolled by Israel/US?

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Hamas are not your normal political party. When they won the elections in 2006 they then proceeded to carry out a purge against members of Fatah and its supporters in Gaza.

No. It was when Fatah members returned from Egypt after US/Israel funded training to launch a coup against Hamas that they decided to carry out the pre-emptive "purge".
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1578039,00.html
http://www.conflictsforum.org/2007/elliot-abrams-uncivil-war/

jank wrote: »

Going to take a leaf out of Sean Hannitys book here but are they not a Terrorist Organisation? Yes/No? .

Meaningless label.

AngryHippie

jank wrote: »

It still does not explain why they wont open the border to Gaza. When the MB were in power they did not open the borders to Gaza. Were the MB bankrolled by Israel/US?

Asking the same question in a different way.

The entire state of Egypt is Bankrolled by the US to the tune of 1.5 Billion a year. It doesn't matter who is trying to run Egypt, they'll have to do it for 1.5 Billion less per year, or face the prospect of their opposition having 1.5 Billion per year extra with which to meet budgets.
Stop making it about the Muslim Brotherhood, it is Irrelevant. It could have been Fianna Fecking Fail for the difference it will make to opening the border. It is a 3 Billion dollar hole that the rulers of Egypt must face if they are to incur the wrath of the US.
I believe that simple piece of mathematics, and motivation explains exactly why.

Try and ask the question another way, maybe one that demands an answer to suit your agenda ?

comongethappy

Hamas fighters attacking an IDF position last week, video released today.

5 IDF soldiers killed in the operation.

http://www.jspacenews.com/disturbing-video-hamas-attack-nir-killed-5-idf-soldiers/

Also on Sky news, but the don't show much.

Tail Docker

h2005 wrote: »

That video was most likely edited.

Phew! Great. You mean they didn't actually blow up that block of apartments! That's fantastic. I was thinking about all them people losing their homes.

No, wait, you mean they did blow it to rubble, just the warning time was actually 3 minutes?? Damn, that's ****ty behaviour for an Army. Was it a Military block of flats? An apartment block of mass destruction? Or was it a tunnel? One of them sky-tunnels?

hju6

UN SCHOOL attacked by israeli tanks

These bastards war crimes are out of hand completely

dav3

Another day of deliberate slaughter by the psychopathic war criminals of Israel.

Another shelter targeted and innocent children murdered.

mad muffin

I see nothing much has changed in this new thread…









Hamas executing protestors

http://www.jspacenews.com/hamas-executions-palestinians-gaza/

jank

Nodin wrote: »

No. It was when Fatah members returned from Egypt after US/Israel funded training to launch a coup against Hamas that they decided to carry out the pre-emptive "purge".
http://content.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1578039,00.html
http://www.conflictsforum.org/2007/elliot-abrams-uncivil-war/



Meaningless label.

Two things. You have continuously harped on about the 'real' reason why Israel are carrying out the current assault is that they are afraid of a unified Palestinian political body. Yet, now you claim that they were behind Fatah (who were defeated in 2006 elections) when they tried to wrestle back control from Hamas. If that was successful wouldn't there be a unified Palestinian political body now in Palestine, then why are Israel carrying out the latest assault.

Secondly, why are you so reluctant to call out Hamas for what they are, a terrorist group who are labelled as such by pretty much every international organisation in the world.

So again, are Hamas a terrorist group, yes or no.
You non-answer next time will indicate that they indeed are but for some reason wont want to admit it.

jank

AngryHippie wrote: »

Asking the same question in a different way.

The entire state of Egypt is Bankrolled by the US to the tune of 1.5 Billion a year.

1.5 Billion is not a lot in the grand scheme of things in Egypt when their budget for the year is about $300+ Billion a year... To say that an amount of cash that amounts to less than 0.3 of the entire budget gives the US/Israel total control over what they do just amounts to crazy conspiracy theories and conveniently blames US/Israel again for any and all issues in Egypt and Gaza. Since Mubarack is gone, Egypt have more or less been running themselves with less than impressive results it must be said, yet sure blame 'merica for that too. It suits your world view that Washington and the CIA control all the wrongs that happen in that part of the world while never pointing fingers or blaming the Arabs themselves at how poor they act domestically, internationally or towards their own people.

dav3

Absolutely nothing justifies the killing of innocent children. The desperate attempts by some people to link Hamas and the Palestinian people as one and therefore the children deserve what they get, is absolutely disgusting.

Here is just some of the news that we wake up to this morning.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0730/633916-gaza-israel/

Israeli tank shells and air strikes on houses and a school in Jebalya in northern Gaza killed at least 43 people and wounded many others, including 20 in a UN school, health ministry spokesman Ashraf Al-Qidra said.

Among the dead were a medic and an infant.

UNRWA, the main UN relief agency in Gaza, said it was at "breaking point" with more than 200,000 Palestinians having taken shelter in its schools and buildings following calls by Israel for civilians to evacuate whole neighbourhoods before military operations.

Which debunks the myth that Hamas are forcing people to stay in their homes.

I will also listen to the likes of Jon Snow and other reporters that have actually been there and witnessed this genocide when they say there is 'no evidence of human shields being used'.

Leslie91

Apart from the horrific murder of innocents... when I see the latest bomb/missile being fired, the latest school/compound being levelled I think lots about how much money American arms producers are making off the back of this. Those guys must be rubbing their hands at this and lobbying hard to let it continue for as long as possible. It is sickening.

jank

Rockets found for a 3rd time at a school.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48365#.U9inv_mSx8F

In a related development, UNRWA said that a cache of rockets was found today at one of its schools in central Gaza. The discovery came during a regular UNRWA inspection of the school, which was closed for the summer and not being used as a shelter. All the relevant parties have been notified.

“We condemn the group or groups who endangered civilians by placing these munitions in our school,” said UNRWA spokesperson Chris Gunness. “This is yet another flagrant violation of the neutrality of our premises. We call on all the warring parties to respect the inviolability of UN property.”

Sure it was probably the IDF that planted those rockets as an excuse to kill children. :rolleyes:

It seems Hamas is quite happy with the way things are going as its leadership cowers and hides while its people suffers.

A reclusive Hamas commander has rejected suggestions the Palestinian militants are ready for a ceasefire with Israel to end violence in Gaza.

In an audio recording, Mohammad Deif, commander of Hamas' military wing, said his soldiers were "eager for death".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28554477

comongethappy

jank wrote: »

Rockets found for a 3rd time at a school.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=48365#.U9inv_mSx8F



Sure it was probably the IDF that planted those rockets as an excuse to kill children. :rolleyes:

It seems Hamas is quite happy with the way things are going as its leadership cowers and hides while its people suffers.


http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-28554477

- Islamists plant weapons caches in UN schools.
- UN moves civilians there for shelter.
- Israel vows to destroy rocket capabilities & kill innocents in the process.

Both Hamas & Israel are a scourge on the people of Gaza.

mrsweebri

http://vimeo.com/50531435http://vimeo.com/50531435


Wish I could embed this. It is a work of art.

WakeUp

Israels Campaign to Send Gaza back to the Stoneage:

"As the dust cleared this morning after a night of bombardment that felt as if it would never end, Gaza’s main power plant was out of commission and the already brittle civilian infrastructure lay in shards. The Gaza City port had been bombed and the finance ministry was flattened. Tens of thousands more people had fled their homes as Israeli flares lit up the night sky, and shells and rockets pounded residences, businesses and government buildings. By Tuesday afternoon over 100 more Gazans had been added to the list of more than 1,000 who had died earlier in what Israel calls Operation Protective Edge."

"The power plant is a loss with particularly far reaching consequences. According to Hayat abu Salah, spokesperson for the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), it will need major repairs before it can be put back on line. “This will affect the provision of water and sanitation services,” she said. “It will impact the operation of health facilities.”

"With more wounded pouring into Gaza hospitals every day, they are already stretched. The emergency room of Gaza City’s Al Shifa Hospital is running out of supplies and was already coping with massive complications created by power cuts. The maternity ward has lost premature babies because it was unable to keep the incubators running."

"In the emergency room yesterday afternoon, young children writhed in pain on gurneys waiting for scrambling ER doctors to attend to them following an air strike on the Al Shati Refugee camp. Nine of the ten people killed in the attack were children and are many more were wounded. As a doctor rushed from taking shrapnel out of a man’s back over to a 4-year-old boy screaming in pain, the lights flickered. And that was before the power plant was hit."

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/07/29/israel-s-escalating-offensive-is-tearing-down-gaza-s-infrastructure.html

Dan_Solo

Can anyone even pretend that Israel's history isn't one long at any costs land grab?

Dravokivich

comongethappy wrote: »

- Islamists plant weapons caches in UN schools.
- UN moves civilians there for shelter.
- Israel vows to destroy rocket capabilities & kill innocents in the process.

Both Hamas & Israel are a scourge on the people of Gaza.

He can't make the distinction. It's been told to him over and over. He thinks we should either agree with Israel or if not we defacto agree with Hamas.