Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**

eeepaulo

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Who's our great leader?

The teaboy

Awkward Badger

Tuisceanch wrote: »

He seems reasonably well versed in Israeli talking points!

Its hardly surprising. He's not going to do anything but weasel out of doing anything and he'll pick the handiest argument with which to do that. Parroting the Israel propaganda makes it easy to avoid having to act while pretending he has the remotest interest in peace out there. He doesn't care, he doesn't want to get involved, he wants to keep his head down and draw his paycheck. Unfortunately for him he's not the brightest and picked a staunchly pro Israeli line on the conflict.

I'd say if you sent a letter imploring him to back Israel you'd get the handiest argument to weasel out of that. All the man does is weasel.

He's not the leader of a country he's the leader of a party, only capable of stringing people along and filling them full of shíte to suit his own needs. Doesn't really count for much when it comes to doing anything though. Just highlights the fact he's clueless and uninterested.

Nodin

....I'd be surprised if its genuine, given that its so hard to get any definite and clear response out of them generally.

Appalling crap if it is, though.

DarkyHughes

Oh I see Enda Kenny.

I refuse to recognize this state while Fine Gael are in power.

How Fine gael get so much support astonishes me. This is a party who has it's roots in fascism (yes, they do just like they have roots in Republicanism) & the 2003 Baron report basically said they did feck all in trying to hunt down the people responsible for the worst terrorist attack & biggest mass murder in Ireland or Britain during the 20th century. I never liked them before but that Hidden Hand documentary in 94 made my blood boil over into outright hatred & anger towards them. And anyone who tried to help the victims families or survivors were denounced as Provo supporters by Fine Gael people who shameless bunch of cowards & scumbags

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri4HCYp0vmM

Disgusting 100's of people had to suffer even more because of FG.

user2011

We always get the number of rockets coming out of Gaza 1000,2000,3000 but I've never seen or heard the amount that gets fired back in return..

A few quotes

pumped at least 7,000 high explosive shells into the Gaza neighborhood, which included a barrage of some 4,800 shells during a seven-hour period at the height of the operation. Senior U.S. officers were stunned by the report.

“The only possible reason for doing that is to kill a lot of people in as short a period of time as possible,” said the senior U.S. military officer. “It’s not mowing the lawn,” he added, referring to a popular IDF term for periodic military operations against Hamas in Gaza. “It’s removing the topsoil.”

“Holy bejeezus,” exclaimed retired Lt. Gen. Robert Gard when told the numbers of artillery pieces and rounds fired during the July 21 action. “That rate of fire over that period of time is astonishing. If the figures are even half right, Israel’s response was absolutely disproportionate.”

http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2014/8/26/israel-bombing-stunsusofficers.html

They hadn't a hope

DainBramage

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Oh I see Enda Kenny.

I refuse to recognize this state while Fine Gael are in power.

How Fine gael get so much support astonishes me. This is a party who has it's roots in fascism (yes, they do just like they have roots in Republicanism) & the 2003 Baron report basically said they did feck all in trying to hunt down the people responsible for the worst terrorist attack & biggest mass murder in Ireland or Britain during the 20th century. I never liked them before but that Hidden Hand documentary in 94 made my blood boil over into outright hatred & anger towards them. And anyone who tried to help the victims families or survivors were denounced as Provo supporters by Fine Gael people who shameless bunch of cowards & scumbags

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ri4HCYp0vmM

Disgusting 100's of people had to suffer even more because of FG.

not sure which is more awful ; the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza or having to endure ten minutes of Mark Cagney and your one on TV3 above

statesaver

DarkyHughes wrote: »

Oh I see Enda Kenny.

I refuse to recognize this state while Fine Gael are in power.

How Fine gael get so much support astonishes me. This is a party who has it's roots in fascism (yes, they do just like they have roots in Republicanism) & the 2003 Baron report basically said they did feck all in trying to hunt down the people responsible for the worst terrorist attack & biggest mass murder in Ireland or Britain during the 20th century. I never liked them before but that Hidden Hand documentary in 94 made my blood boil over into outright hatred & anger towards them. And anyone who tried to help the victims families or survivors were denounced as Provo supporters by Fine Gael people who shameless bunch of cowards & scumbags

Disgusting 100's of people had to suffer even more because of FG.

I agree.
There would never of been an Irish Peace Process if Fine Gael were in power for all of the 90's

Gringo180

Have been really busy lately so havent had time to keep up to date on things, has the blockade been lifted?

ahmdoda

JC01 wrote: »

Who wer these people that did no harm to the Jews? Because from my understanding of it the majority of the Arab world has tried to annihilate Israel at one point or another. Israel basically spent the period of the mid 40s to the late 60s fighting for survival on all sides.

Il ignore the whole Bible thing.

But back to my original question, do you think that in 13 years Hamas will be able to destroy one of the most powerful militaries in the world?

I was referring to the period before the rise of Israel as the jews were never prosecuted by the Arabs or Muslims alike in fact the prophet of Islam lived with the jews in Madina and one of his wife was a Jew & it wasnt until they broke a truce and gathered people against him that they were kicked out specifically a tribe called Banu Nadir and even after that continued fighting and plotting against the Muslims in Madina and it wasn't until the Battle of Khaybar that the jews were finally defeated and still were not prosecuted.
In fact when Christianity came back to power in Andalus after 800 year of Muslim rule -modern day Spain- When the Muslim left the Jews left with them because they feared the Christian antisemitism which would be unleashed in the wake of the departure of the Islamic civilization in the west.

Read this extract by an An Italian Rabbi, Obadiah Yareh Da Bertinoro who travelled to Jerusalem in 1486 CE and he wrote a letter to his father telling him about the country and its people:

“The Jews are not persecuted by the Arabs in these parts. I have travelled through the country in its length and breadth, and none of them has put an obstacle in my way. They are very kind to strangers, particularly to anyone who does not know the language; and if they see many Jews together they are not annoyed by it. In my opinion, an intelligent man versed in political science might easily raise himself to be chief of the Jews as well as of the Arabs…”[1]

as for 13 years being enough for Hamas to beat one of the world strongest militaries, I don't think Hamas will be fighting Israel alone this time around. If america doesn't deal with the IS threat they will soon move in against Israel once they consolidate their rule in the land they already gained, and lets not forget the rise of Islamist in Libya right now basically every Islamic group that rise will be a threat to Israel and hence that's why Morsi of the Muslim brotherhood was ousted in 13 years i can see the rise of many of these groups rising.

Nodin

Gringo180 wrote: »

Have been really busy lately so havent had time to keep up to date on things, has the blockade been lifted?

Not as of yet.

chicken foot

I believe the letter to be genuine, I've actually emailed him back quoting it and asking for feedback! I emailed five local TD's on the matter & so far I've heard back from two - one FF and one Labour.

I read that report regarding the shock from the US army at the severity if attacks, if that ****er Netanyahou doesn't suffer for this then there is no justice in the world.

Nodin

chicken foot wrote: »

I believe the letter to be genuine, I've actually emailed him back quoting it and asking for feedback! I emailed five local TD's on the matter & so far I've heard back from two - one FF and one Labour.

I read that report regarding the shock from the US army at the severity if attacks, if that ****er Netanyahou doesn't suffer for this then there is no justice in the world.

I can tell ye now how that's going to turn out.

conditioned games

wes wrote: »

There is another thread discussing ISIS. Suffice to say the 2 conflicts are rather different. For example ISIS are being actively bombed, aid being provided to there victims and weapons provided to those fighting them from the international community. We see no such action being taken in regards to Israel, and hence the rather large difference. In fact Israel was given weapons to continue there slaughter of Palestinians during the most recent conflict, which of course displays the utter hypocrisy of the West, bombing ISIS on the one hand, and giving weapons to Israel to murder Palestinians with.



Thats an interesting thing to say. Seeing as Israel are the ones invading Palestinian land in the West Bank and have put Gaza under siege. The entire notion that Israel an occupying power that is actively stealing land on a daily basis is some how engaged in self defense is laughable fiction that far to many seems to come out with time and again.



Israel didn't exist in 1942...... Also comparing an occupied people to Nazi's is complete and utter nonsense.

The 2 conflicts do have similarities. Those fighting for the ISIS would love a go at Israel but with a secure border in place they cant send their suicide bombers in like the old days and instead resort to firing over rockets.

It was the US that made the decision to drop a few bombs on ISIS recently while the rest of the international coumminity gave lip service.

Very little aid has been provided, thousands have died and will contine to do so as all the cameras are focused on supporting the terrorists in Palestine.

No action has been taken against Israel because they are defending themselves as a result of the onslaught of rockets from it's neighbour.

Israel has no intention of claiming Gaza. It is under siege in order to stop it been used as a launch pad to attack Israel.

Sounds like you forget what happened between 1942 and 1945 when 6 million Jews were wiped out. It was those that survived that went back to their ancesteral homeland. It is not nonsense to compare what happened to them back then when they didn't stand up for themselves to the situation now where they are sourounded by countries that want them wiped off the map. If the dont take a hard line now then they will suffer a similar fate that their grandparents and great grandparents faced.

Dan_Solo

Gringo180 wrote: »

Have been really busy lately so havent had time to keep up to date on things, has the blockade been lifted?

The blockade will never never never be lifted, rendering all "peace talks" meaningless as Israel yet again bring zero to the table except more US ordinance.

Dan_Solo

conditioned games wrote: »

Sounds like you forget what happened between 1942 and 1945 when 6 million Jews were wiped out. It was those that survived that went back to their ancesteral homeland.

Ah yes, and to massage our "collective guilt" a few worthless Palestinians had be massacred and evicted. Were they Nazis too?
"Went back". What a quaint way to describe invasion and ethnic cleansing.

Dan_Solo

conditioned games wrote: »

No action has been taken against Israel because they are defending themselves as a result of the onslaught of rockets from it's neighbour.

LOL. Do you do music numbers as well as a comedy routine?

Zebra3

conditioned games wrote: »

Sounds like you forget what happened between 1942 and 1945 when 6 million Jews were wiped out. It was those that survived that went back to their ancesteral homeland. It is not nonsense to compare what happened to them back then when they didn't stand up for themselves to the situation now where they are sourounded by countries that want them wiped off the map. If the dont take a hard line now then they will suffer a similar fate that their grandparents and great grandparents faced.

Crimes committed by Europeans on Europeans do not excuse the Zionists' never ending war on the people of Palestine.

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

Crimes committed by Europeans on Europeans do not excuse the Zionists' never ending war on the people of Palestine.

Well I don't think anything can particularly justify never-ending war, or nicking people's land for that matter, but it took two ethnic cleansings to make Israel; the first was between Jews and Arabs living in Palestine proper into their own areas, the second was the mass expulsion of Jews from across the Arab world for the crime of being Jewish in 1948-9.

Nodin

Meanwhile in the West Bank, business as usual.....
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13764-israeli-forces-storm-palestinian-school-in-west-bank

Zebra3

Irish Praetorian wrote: »

Well I don't think anything can particularly justify never-ending war, or nicking people's land for that matter, but

.

Irish Praetorian

Zebra3 wrote: »

.

I think you might be confusing explanation with justification. We should always seek the former, but approach the latter with more scepticism.

Tuisceanch

TommyKnocker wrote: »

89 Palestinian families, yes, you read right, entire families, have be wiped off the face of the earth since the Israeli onslaught on Gaza started on July 8th.No member of these poor families are left alive.

According to Charlie Flannigan the Irish government would only consider sending the Israeli Ambassador packing in exceptional circumstances.

I would love to know what constitutes exceptional circumstances in the eyes of the Irish Government.

Israeli Ambassador, OUT OUT OUT!!!!

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.612255

I was watching a video of a debate between Tom Segev,Norman Finkelstein and Dr. Mona El-Farra about the 1967 war. Since I hadn't heard of Dr. Mona I decided to google to check whether she had survived the latest onslaught and came across this shocking clip.

As Gaza Death Toll Tops 1,800, Dr. Mona El-Farra Mourns Loss of 9 Relatives in Israeli Strike


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP_FXbrnBOg

I'm afraid that I wouldn't be surprised if this was quite deliberate.

Incidentally somebody posted a link in the comments section to a .pdf file of the Hasbara manual

http://www.stopdebezetting.com/documents/pdf/090713Hasbara%20handboek_tip_report.pdf

wes

conditioned games wrote: »

The 2 conflicts do have similarities. Those fighting for the ISIS would love a go at Israel but with a secure border in place they cant send their suicide bombers in like the old days and instead resort to firing over rockets.

What are you even talking about. It seems that you are claiming that ISIS are firing rockets at Israel? Maybe, you have just phrased thing badly.

Either way 2 rather different conflicts.

conditioned games wrote: »

It was the US that made the decision to drop a few bombs on ISIS recently while the rest of the international coumminity gave lip service.

Also, some unconfirmed reports of Iranian troops crossing the border to fight ISIS. The fact remains that something is actually being done.

conditioned games wrote: »

Very little aid has been provided, thousands have died and will contine to do so as all the cameras are focused on supporting the terrorists in Palestine.

Very difficult to provide aid in such situations, but the fact remains that at least help is being provided. Also, the entire notion that what ISIS is doing isn't being covered by the media is utter nonsense. Plenty of media attention on ISIS.

Oh, I agree that there is a great deal of support for IDF terrorism against Palestinians civilians in the West, for example the US sending more weapons that the IDF then used to murder civilians.

conditioned games wrote: »

No action has been taken against Israel because they are defending themselves as a result of the onslaught of rockets from it's neighbour.

Again, a laughable claim. An occupying power is not engaged in self defense while expanding outside there borders, and having you know kept Gaza under siege for several years.

BTW, the rockets attacks happened after Israel attacked Hamas several times. Before that they were actively stopping rocket attacks on Israel.

Oh, and the reasons for Israels attack on Gaza changed a few times, first it was about the kidnap and murder of settler teenagers, then it was rockets and then "terror" tunnels. It was kind of hard to keep up with the latest excuse Netanyahu was going with.

conditioned games wrote: »

Israel has no intention of claiming Gaza. It is under siege in order to stop it been used as a launch pad to attack Israel.

Gaza is under siege due to Israel wanting rid of Hamas. Has nothing to do with rockets, as Hamas had largely stopped various groups firing them at Israel, and yet the siege remained despite the fact that after the last conflict it was suppose to eased significantly, but that never happened.

conditioned games wrote: »

Sounds like you forget what happened between 1942 and 1945 when 6 million Jews were wiped out.

No, I haven't. Nazi Germany killed 6 millions Jews.

conditioned games wrote: »

It was those that survived that went back to their ancesteral homeland.

Zionist immigration to Palestine started in the late 1800's...........

Also, having ancestors who lived some where over 2000 years ago, doesn't give anyone a right to go take over the place, and set up your own country. Otherwise, we could all go to Africa tomorrow and set up shop.

conditioned games wrote: »

It is not nonsense to compare what happened to them back then when they didn't stand up for themselves to the situation now where they are sourounded by countries that want them wiped off the map.

Comparing Palestinians to Nazi's is nonsense. They are the ones who are occupied and not the Israeli's.

As for being surrounded, I take it you are unaware of the peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan, and the arab peace plan, all of which prove you wrong.

conditioned games wrote: »

If the dont take a hard line now then they will suffer a similar fate that their grandparents and great grandparents faced.

So using one genocide to excuse another....

conditioned games

wes wrote: »

What are you even talking about. It seems that you are claiming that ISIS are firing rockets at Israel? Maybe, you have just phrased thing badly.

Either way 2 rather different conflicts.



Also, some unconfirmed reports of Iranian troops crossing the border to fight ISIS. The fact remains that something is actually being done.



Very difficult to provide aid in such situations, but the fact remains that at least help is being provided. Also, the entire notion that what ISIS is doing isn't being covered by the media is utter nonsense. Plenty of media attention on ISIS.

Oh, I agree that there is a great deal of support for IDF terrorism against Palestinians civilians in the West, for example the US sending more weapons that the IDF then used to murder civilians.



Again, a laughable claim. An occupying power is not engaged in self defense while expanding outside there borders, and having you know kept Gaza under siege for several years.

BTW, the rockets attacks happened after Israel attacked Hamas several times. Before that they were actively stopping rocket attacks on Israel.

Oh, and the reasons for Israels attack on Gaza changed a few times, first it was about the kidnap and murder of settler teenagers, then it was rockets and then "terror" tunnels. It was kind of hard to keep up with the latest excuse Netanyahu was going with.



Gaza is under siege due to Israel wanting rid of Hamas. Has nothing to do with rockets, as Hamas had largely stopped various groups firing them at Israel, and yet the siege remained despite the fact that after the last conflict it was suppose to eased significantly, but that never happened.



No, I haven't. Nazi Germany killed 6 millions Jews.



Zionist immigration to Palestine started in the late 1800's...........

Also, having ancestors who lived some where over 2000 years ago, doesn't give anyone a right to go take over the place, and set up your own country. Otherwise, we could all go to Africa tomorrow and set up shop.



Comparing Palestinians to Nazi's is nonsense. They are the ones who are occupied and not the Israeli's.

As for being surrounded, I take it you are unaware of the peace treaty with Egypt and Jordan, and the arab peace plan, all of which prove you wrong.



So using one genocide to excuse another....

The conflicts in Syria and Iraq and the threat Israel are under are not all that different. Are you trying to tell me the 10,000 jihadist fighters that have come across the world to fight for the ISIS would not pose a threat to Israel if they didn’t put measures in place to protect them selves.

There has been very little media attention on ISIS over the last 6 months as they have captured more and more land. Only recently did the area get some coverage because the US took it upon themselves to drop aid on those stranded up a mountain and to target the ISIS with a few bombs. If it was up to you, the rest of these anti-Israel clowns on here or the international community there would be no protest and absolute no protection offered to those under attack by ISIS. And don’t forget these same fighters that have come from around the world to join the terrorists on the ground in Syria would be more than happy to get involved in Israel and wipe them out.

Fair play to the US for sending weapons to the IDF. They need all the help they can get. That country is surrounded by the sea on one side and neighbouring countries that want them gone. Well done to Israel in taking a hard line, those that want them gone including Hamas/Palestine have no intention in been friends. Best thing Israel can do is protect its borders and hit back hard when jihadist/Palestine sends rockets down on them.

While you don’t want to believe it, Israel faces a real threat which is why it has to self-defend. They have no intention of expanding the border into Gaza as you say but have had to keep the place under siege to stop the heavier more powerful rockets been brought in and to limit the rockets been sent in over the last 10 years.

It is Hamas that has been provoking Israel all the time and not as you say they were actively stopping rocket attacks.

The reason for Israel for defending itself has not changed all the time. It is rockets and more rockets been sent over by terrorists, what part of this can you not understand.

Some Jews went to present day Israel from 1800 onwards but it was after the Holocaust that the large scale migration began and the creation of the State of Israel. It is not nonsense to compare the treatment of the Jews under Nazism to the current threat they face with Hamas/Palestinians. Both Nazi’s and Hamas want them gone and whether you believe it or not the threat Israel currently faces is very real.

Padraig Mor

conditioned games wrote: »

It is Hamas that has been provoking Israel all the time and not as you say they were actively stopping rocket attacks.The reason for Israel for defending itself has not changed all the time. It is rockets and more rockets been sent over by terrorists, what part of this can you not understand.

Incorrect. Hamas had held a ceasefire for over a year before the current fighting. In that time, they deployed "rocket enforcement squads" to stop other groups (Islamic Jihad etc) from launching rockets towards Israel, and were largely successful. Hamas only started launching rockets AFTER Israel attacked them (under the false pretences of Hamas involvement in the murders of the 3 settler Israeli youths) firstly in the West Bank, and then in Gaza.
It's worth noting the backstory as well - the ceasefire that Hamas held until the recent hostilities was part of the agreements which ended the last round of hostilities initiated by Israel in 2012. Israel did not hold up its end of the bargain however, including lifting the illegal siege, access to detained Palestinians etc. The *new* ceasefire agreement for the most part simply obligates Israel to do things it has already agreed to do before, but failed to implement (unlike Hamas, who did what they were meant to).

It is not nonsense to compare the treatment of the Jews under Nazism to the current threat they face with Hamas/Palestinians. Both Nazi’s and Hamas want them gone and whether you believe it or not the threat Israel currently faces is very real.

Unlike all major Israeli politicians - not least Netanyahu - Hamas have said they will settle for a two state solution and recognise Israel if they set their borders at the 1967 boundaries. The claim that they want to "wipe Israel from the map", "drive the Jews into the sea" etc are about 20 years out of date.

Tuisceanch

conditioned games wrote: »

.. in place to protect them selves.
.. Fair play to the US for sending weapons to the IDF.
...it has to self-defend.
.. It is Hamas that has been provoking Israel all the time
.. both Nazi’s and Hamas want them gone and whether you believe it or not the threat Israel currently faces is very real.

“He was incapable of uttering a single sentence that was not a cliché”..HA on Eichmann

Self-Deception, Lies And Stupidity
Relevance of Hannah Arendt’s “A Report On The Banality Of Evil” To Gaza


http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/07/28/relevance-of-hannah-arendts-a-report-on-the-banality-of-evil-to-gaza/

[SIZE=-1]"The fact that all this is happening in this age of global information, and it is almost impossible to avoid images of innocent children and women being blown to smithereens, hospitals and even morgues and graveyards bombed and destroyed, makes the complicity of the population or their indifferent silence, both in Israel and its main supporter United States and to lesser extent Western Europe, all the more criminal and callous."[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]It is remarkable that in spite of the huge difference in scale, the psychological and societal factors underlying the brutal onslaught of these declared racist regimes against their captive and largely defenseless populations bears close resemblance. Not only that, USA, without whose total and unconditional support Israel cannot carry out any of its criminal acts, bears many marks of institutional mind control and propaganda so eloquently exposed by HA in her book.[/SIZE]

Tuisceanch

Gaza war games

http://vimeo.com/103920346

tayto lover

Nodin wrote: »

Meanwhile in the West Bank, business as usual.....
https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/13764-israeli-forces-storm-palestinian-school-in-west-bank

The Israelis usually do mad things like this after a ceasefire agreement.
It's a clear attempt to ruffle Hamas so that they can end the truce.
Dirty tricks.

brimal

Padraig Mor wrote: »

Hamas only started launching rockets AFTER Israel attacked them (under the false pretences of Hamas involvement in the murders of the 3 settler Israeli youths) firstly in the West Bank, and then in Gaza.

Ha'aretz wrote:

A senior Hamas official boasted during a conference in Istanbul on Wednesday that the group's military wing was behind the kidnapping and murder of three Israeli teenagers in the West Bank in June.

A video captured during the conference shows Salah Arouri, who is based in Turkey and is considered a primary figure within Hamas, saying that the Iz al-Din al-Qassam Brigades were responsible for the abduction of the three youths, Eyal Yifrach, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, 16.

http://www.haaretz.com/mobile/1.611676

Dan_Solo

conditioned games wrote: »

There has been very little media attention on ISIS over the last 6 months

What about those Mongolian satanists? Why don't we hear more about them in this thread about the ISRAEL - PALESTINE CONFLICT?