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Israel - Palestine Conflict. **Mod note in OP - updated 1st August**
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Anyone any thoughts on the US fighter jets that flew over Dublin today? IMO it was very wrong, another case of Ireland kissing america's ass.TommyKnocker wrote: »I was there with IPSC handing out BDS literature when that happened and I jumped out of my skin. It made me think how horrible it must be in Gaza when these planes are not just flying over the city but also dropping bombs.
Mod
Can we keep this to the Israel-Palestine conflict, there's already a thread here for discussion on the jets. There's also a thread in the Aviation and Aircraft forum, cheers
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Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;
How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?
If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?
Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?
Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?
Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE' 0 -
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Contributor 2013 wrote: »Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;
How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?
If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?
Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?
Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?
Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE'
How should the baby lying asleep beside its mother in a un place of safety with no weapons or resistance fighters in the building protect itself from idf terrorist attacks?
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Contributor 2013 wrote: »How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?
It no self defense when you attack the other side first, and have been stealing from them for over 60 years, and have been murdering the other sides civilians (the IDF murdered 2 Palestinian teenagers before the 3 Israeli settler teenagers were kidnapped and murdered) before they launched there indiscriminate rocket attacks.
Now, let me make this clear, indiscriminate attacks on civilians is wrong and there is no excuse.
There is also no excuse for Israels targeted killing of civilians, targeting civilian infrastructure, negotiating with the leadership in the West Bank in bad faith, stealing Palestinian land, and an siege that is directed at every single Man, Woman and child. I would also like to point out that above is either denied (no matter how many facts are given) or excuses are constantly made by a lot of people who support Israel.Contributor 2013 wrote: »If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?
Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?
Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?
So, your using the fact that Palestinian elected Hamas to justify Israel attacks civilians. You know who else pointed that out to justify there attacks on civilians, Osama Bin Laden. I love the logic being used, as its just so easy to point out that fact that such logic can easily be used to justify attacks in the opposite direction, seeing as the Israeli's elect there government.
Now, IMHO, I reject that logic, and it morally reprehensible, and is used solely used to justify attacks on civilians. IMHO, its completely unacceptable to use who people voted for to any way suggest that they deserve attacks on them. Bringing it up in this context is essentially doing that. I don't care what group its directed against, be it Palestinians, Israelis, Americans or Europeans. It doesn't matter at all, it is an utterly repellant thing to even suggest, and quite frankly anyone using such logic are in some moral camp as Al Qaeda imho.
Also, your example is utter nonsense, again Israel is occupying the Palestinians, stealing there land. murdering them in the West Bank, where Hamas isn't in charge, where the PA actively work with Israel to prevent attacks, and the fact there is a siege on Gaza that targets everyone civilian or militant a like, among other atrocities carried out in the name of a Greater Israel. BTW, to refer back to your own logic (which I will state again, I find to be morally repugnant), Israelis elected there government who do all this crap, and again you own repellant logic can easily be used in the other direction.
The fact is that Palestinians, will have there land stolen, be murdered, and have the various indignities of Israels occupation on them, continue to happen, regardless of whether there violent or not. Its amazing that supporters of Israel will refuse to acknowledge that littler fact, despite the readily available evidence to the contrary. Its not hard to find articles in the world media describing the PA cooperation with Israeli security forces, and despite this cooperation again the fact of the constant land theft, Human Rights violations, and murder visiting on the Palestinians, which again all easy to find, all reported by various outlets the world over.
It doesn't matter, what Palestinians do at this point. Any violence is terrorism, even when its an attack on the IDF. Peaceful protest is also treated as terrorism (and largely ignored in the West). Calls for Boycott, Divestment and sanctions, are also treated as if it was terrorism. Any method of resistance, violent or otherwise, is treated as being completely illegitimate.
The Palestinians are expected to do nothing, while Israel can steal there land, all the while being aided by the hypocritical West, who will condemn Putin for a land grab, and yet support Israel doing the exact same thing.Contributor 2013 wrote: »Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE'
I look forward to you trying to make this point on every article discussing anything to do with another country........0 -
Contributor 2013 wrote: »Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;
How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?
If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?
Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?
Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?
Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE'
What do you think about a state that's been allowed to violate international law for nearly 50 years? Why are you surprised people launch rockets at them?0 -
Contributor 2013 wrote: »Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;
How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?
If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?
Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?
Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?
Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE'
Self Defense indeed :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Let me ask you. I am bringing this conflict down to simple, personal terms.
If I show up at your house tomorrow with a group of people and tell you that they claim to have a link to your land, so it has been decided to give them your back garden, your garage, your kitchen, hall, and dining room and the upstairs toilet, leaving you with the upstairs bedrooms, the down stairs toilet and the sitting room, the stairs will be shared. Would you have an issue with this if you were given a vote?
If yes: Then why are people surprised that the indigenous people of historic Palestine rejected the UN/UK proposal back in the 1940's giving away over 50% of the land for a Jewish state?
IF No: Great. You have more restraint than I and I suspect most would have.
So now lets move forward a bit. These new people one day beat you and your family up and evict you from the sitting room and the downstairs toilet and call the stairs a buffer zone, which you cannot use. They move some of their friends and extended family into the house to take up the space they have taken from you. You now need a permit to leave the house and have to apply for permission to use the toilets or bathing facilities. You have no direct access to food or means to cook it. The people occupying your house will provide you just enough food to survive. They will control which items you can have and which are to be denied to you and your family. This is now your life. This is all your children and your children's children have to look forward to.
Do you have a problem with this? Are you driven to despair? to resist? to fight back? To find some way to sneak out of the house (tunnels) to get items to make your life and that of your family a little more bearable? And yes, maybe items which can be used as weapons against the people occupying your home and making your life and that of your family miserable.
If yes: Then why don't the Palestinians have the same right to resist. How are they Terrorists? Why the condemnation of the Palestinians for building tunnels? Tunnels have been used in sieges throughout history.
If no: Wow. Serious respect. I could not show this restraint and I would be surprised if many could. So do you consider just giving up your home, what possessions you have left and all you have worked for and you and your family becoming homeless?
So imagine that you choose to resist, to fight back. You run down the stairs to attack the people occupying your home. However all you have as a weapon is a sling fashioned from a tee shirt and some tennis balls. You are beaten back with force and then the occupiers rush up the stairs and beat up all your family, killing one of them and break up all the beds and furniture you have, burn most of your families clothes. take away all the bed linen except for a few blankets.
Are you feeling desperate yet? Might you be driven to appeal to some vigilante group for help to fight for your and your families right to live a decent life?
If yes: So can you not see that the Palestinians turned to Hamas in desperation?
Fatah are working with the Israeli's supposedly for peace and yet the illegal settlements continue to grow in the West Bank. Children in the West Bank are still dragged out of their beds in the middle of the night by the ITF (T=Terrorist) and arrested for throwing stones. Children in the West Bank have to run the gauntlet of rubber bullets (ball bearings, the size of a grown mans thumb with a light covering of rubber) and tear gas just to get to/from school. There are roads and areas in the West Bank which are "Israeli Only" << THIS IS APARTHEID!!!!
If no: Ok, so you see the actions of the occupiers as self defense do you? You are officially a saint, or the second coming of the messiah. I don't believe that there are many in this world who could live under such conditions, seeing no end to it for them, their children and their children's children and not fight back. I know I could not.
So as silly as the above seems, now imagine this type of scenario on a national scale. Can you name any other country who would agree and continue to live peacefully under the conditions the Palestinians are forced to live under and who would offer no resistance?
I in no way condone the firing of rockets from Gaza into Israel as it is possible that civilians could get hurt. But I fully support Hamas's right to exist and resist against the zionist, racist, apartheid, occupation force which is the Israeli state. The state of Israel was built with the terrorist actions of groups like Irgun, Haganah, Stern Gang, who used violence and ethnic cleansing to remove indigenous people from their homes to give to European Jews, fleeing persecution and to build the Jewish state.
Also IMHO, to call the Hamas projectiles "Rockets" is to give them more credit that they deserve. They are home made using fertiliser as explosives and those that get through the Iron Dome and don't fall in open ground seem to cause little enough damage. I have looked for photos of the damage and have seen pot holes in roads, holes in walls or roofs of homes, garages, damaged cars in garages etc. They don't even explode fully on impact. They are more akin to crude cannon balls. Now I admit that I would not like to live with the threat of these projectiles hitting my house and possibly injuring/killing my loved ones, but to call them rockets.... ?
I know there have been people killed as a result of these "rockets" fired by Hamas and I in no way condone this. It is a reprehensible act to endanger civilian lives. However these "rockets" are fired as you say INDISCRIMINATELY. Unlike those of the Israeli army and air force who specifically target civilian homes, infrastructure and UN locations where they have been informed on numerous occasions that Palestinian civilians, who have been displaced by the Israeli warning of impending attack, are sheltering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWCdhC8B9YQ#t=727
http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=7244260 -
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Contributor 2013 wrote: »Question to all the "Palestine people/supporters" here on boards.ie;
How long should Israel wait this time before having to defend their civilians against totally untargeted/indiscriminate attacks?
If you allow someone to launch a rocket from your back garden or top of your apartment building without any protest - (bearing in mind you voted them into government) should you really be bitching when "the enemy" as according to the people you allow do do these acts/ run your country returns fire on the same position?
Should you not be the person that leaves your home/building - in fear for your lives and reports this activity?
Or should you risk yours and your neighbors/families lives and allow it to continue?
Just wondering what peoples opinions on this are, here on BOARDS.'IE'
First of all gaza isn't isreal's back garden, isreal is Palistine's front garden.So when the ira plants a bomb its the innocent people's fault for not evacuating fast enough.im not anti jew, im anti-bully/isreali0 -
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