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Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

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    #182
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    jank wrote: »
    That much is obvious but you seem to be aware that it was translated by the IDF therefore the translation is wrong. Again, it is up to you to prove its wrong. Not just smear it in the hope people dismiss it outright. Smearing something is easy.

    Here's the deputy leader of the Likud writing in Hebrew for the expulsion of the Palestinians.

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/concentrate-and-exterminate-israel-parliament-deputy-speakers-gaza-genocide-plan

    He did say it in Hebrew on Facebook and electronic intifada translated it but you will, of course, accept the translation.


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    #183
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    jank wrote: »
    That much is obvious but you seem to be aware that it was translated by the IDF therefore the translation is wrong. Again, it is up to you to prove its wrong. Not just smear it in the hope people dismiss it outright. Smearing something is easy.
    There is nothing to prove wrong. Even if we assume the IDF are correctly translating his words he doesn't say anything about using human shields.


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    #184
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    carpejugulum wrote: »
    From Hamas charter:

    So you are quoting from something that has no legal standing, nor ever has been adopted by Hamas then. British diplomat Sir Jeremy Greenstock said of the charter:
    drawn up by a Hamas-linked imam some [twenty] years ago and has never been adopted since Hamas was elected as the Palestinian government in 2006
    This was as a result of his frustrations of not being able to deal with Hamas as the Middle East's peace completion of eretz ysrael envoy's man on the ground doing all the work.

    Of course on the other side, you've a leader, and his supporting parties, who is actively trying to make the exclusivly jewish nature of Israel a constitutional reality as well as being the de facto state on the ground, something that hasn't been tried anywhere since 1933.

    It is saddening that increasingly the only valid point of comparison we have for today's Israel is Nazi Germany, don't you think?


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    #185
    Azwaldo55
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭Azwaldo55


    Nodin wrote: »
    An impressive list of stereotypes

    And so the parrot sketch continues.


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    #186
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    marienbad wrote: »
    And will this solve the problem do you think ? Will the rockets stop ?

    The rockets are no more the problem than the IRA was between 1919-1921, the Mao-Mao in the '50's, the Vietnamese were between the '50's and '70's.

    The Palestinian people have the legal and moral right to defend themselves and their country from the illegal invasion, occupation and stealing of their land and lives by the Israeli state under all relevant international law.


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    #187
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Azwaldo55 wrote: »
    And so the parrot sketch continues.
    Can you explain why you said before that "Israel is loathsome"?


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    #188
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    marienbad wrote: »
    Actually I can't work it out for myself and neither can you.
    Yes, I can. 10 years of peace and Gazan's having a decade to live as humans with a degree of liberty would naturally move us closer to a final peaceful solution.

    Now could you please answer the question? Which of Hamas' 10 conditions for a 10-year ceasefire are unreasonable and why?


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    #189
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »

    The Palestinian people have the legal and moral right to defend themselves and their country from the illegal invasion, occupation and stealing of their land and lives by the Israeli state under all relevant international law.

    I asked this of you before but please tell me where the Palestinians or Hamas have the right to fire over 3,000 rockets into populated urban areas indiscriminately and where Hamas have the right to pursue their goals of Genocide....


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    #190
    shewasdiesel
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 138 ✭✭shewasdiesel


    jank wrote: »
    I asked this of you before but please tell me where the Palestinians or Hamas have the right to fire over 3,000 rockets into populated urban areas indiscriminately and where Hamas have the right to pursue their goals of Genocide....

    Hamas supporters don't do straight answers


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    #191
    Azwaldo55
    Registered Users Posts: 546 ✭✭✭Azwaldo55


    shewasdiesel wrote: »
    Hamas supporters don't do straight answers

    Hamas is the elephant in the room the anti-Israeli loons simply do not want to address.

    They completely ignore or airbrush the terror tunnels, the rockets and the mortars fired at Israel and the internal repression of the Palestinians by Hamas.

    Also the killing of thousands of Palestinians in Syria is of supreme indifference to them never mind the fact that Hamas is just one of a wave of Islamic terrorist groups in a range of countries from Algeria to Nigeria, Pakistan to China, Indonesia to the Philippines, Somalia to the streets of French and British and Scandinavian cities.

    As we speak ISIS is consolidating its position in Syria and Iraq backed up by oil wealth and a flood of recruits. Thousands have died there in recent months and weeks. Not a peep out of the anti-war left as Kurds, Christians and Shias are massacred and their shrines destroyed.

    However when Israel takes the war to the Islamic enemy they scream foul!

    If Western publics faced an Islamic insurgency like Hamas they would do precisely what Israel is doing.

    For example parts of French cities are no go areas and sharia law operates in the vacuum and many French Muslims travel to fight jihad around the world so it is only a matter of time before they launch a jihad on French soil.

    It won't be pretty.


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    #192
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Azwaldo,

    Can you PLEASE explain why you said to me before that you think "Israel is loathsome"?


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    #193
    miissjuly
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭miissjuly


    Hamas.. Hamas are killing and firing rockets Hamas are the reason why Israelis are occupying land in Palestine and because of that innocent people are being killed on both sides. But why was it created? Because of this conflict over land I don't support Hamas but nobody asks this question why are Hamas the way they are? Take a look at a map of Palestine from 1940s and a recent map. Israelis have been occupying Palestinian land for years this is an ongoing conflict. I heard someone say "Israel is mentioned in the Quran and Palestine isn't, the land used to belong to Israelis and now they are just trying to get their ancestry land back which Palestinians have occupied for a long time now" this is absolutely rubbish. The land belongs to Palestinians cause if we go that way then all Americans should be kicked out of American and come to Europe to take their ancestry land and Asians should occupy American land. I don't know why people bring religion in it's a conflict over land religion is minor issue is which becoming a major one now because of the deep hatred between the two groups. Israel is using "defending itself" to commit genocide and to cleanse the area of Arabs. They are the powerful side and are clearly doing more damage, not ignoring the fact that Hamas have tried to fire rockets but Israel has advanced technology and have been occupying their land for over 60 years. Hamas are now a terrorist group but Israel is just defending itself. Hamas are the only one fighting for the people of Palestine, their method may be wrong but they're fighting for people who have no military no Air Force. It can be compared to the irish independence war, while the British had proper trained army the irish didn't. Both were fighting and killing but irish people wouldn't label Michael Collins as a terrorist, though for the British he might have been a terrorist. I sound anti Israeli that's because I just watched a video of Israelis cheering singing and dancing saying "there's no children left in gaza" that is very ruthless. We all need to remember that 'One Man’s Terrorist Is Another Man’s Freedom Fighter' though Hamas are just idiots. Hope this greed over land is resolved soon and killing innocent people on both sides must stop. Would love to see Israeli and Arab Muslims live in peace ..hopefully soon.


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    #194
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    jank wrote: »
    That much is obvious but (.............)is easy.

    There's Irony.

    "I have been on record on being against the settlement of the west bank, yet you seem to think the only solution to stop this is the attempted murder of Jews."

    Either back it up the above or withdraw it.


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    #195
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    It is saddening that increasingly the only valid point of comparison we have for today's Israel is Nazi Germany, don't you think?

    I'm loath to get involved in this particular thread, but this same thought has struck me more than once about the way Israel is behaving.

    I don't see any way out of the current situation, the political and religious positions seem far too entrenched.


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    #196
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Folks -

    I know its hot outside and I'm sure this is what's leading to heated exchanges here. Can everybody please take a breather? Perhaps grab a tinny from the fridge, kick back and enjoy the weather while we have it. Then back to the fray.

    Thanking youze.


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    #197
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Brian Shanahan wrote: »
    The rockets are no more the problem than the IRA was between 1919-1921, the Mao-Mao in the '50's, the Vietnamese were between the '50's and '70's.

    The Palestinian people have the legal and moral right to defend themselves and their country from the illegal invasion, occupation and stealing of their land and lives by the Israeli state under all relevant international law.

    Are you saying that Israel should not exist ?


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    #198
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Yes, I can. 10 years of peace and Gazan's having a decade to live as humans with a degree of liberty would naturally move us closer to a final peaceful solution.

    Now could you please answer the question? Which of Hamas' 10 conditions for a 10-year ceasefire are unreasonable and why?

    I think these are meaningless questions just designed to elicit a specific response.

    No nation with a vastly superior advantage would agree to a 10 year truce with an enemy whose goal is that state's destruction . Why would they ?


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    #199
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Azwaldo,

    Can you PLEASE explain why you said to me before that you think "Israel is loathsome"?

    Israel is loathsome because it's Govt and army are a shower of murdering bstards and many of it's citizens rejoice in the murders of innocent Palestinians.


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    #200
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    jank wrote: »
    I asked this of you before but please tell me where the Palestinians or Hamas have the right to fire over 3,000 rockets into populated urban areas indiscriminately and where Hamas have the right to pursue their goals of Genocide....

    Did all of these rockets happen before the recent Israeli incursion or are you denying one group right to self defence while accepting the other's?


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    #201
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    shewasdiesel wrote: »
    Hamas supporters don't do straight answers

    Non Hamas supporters do though ( see above). And there are no Hamas supporters here.....


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    #202
    shewasdiesel
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 138 ✭✭shewasdiesel


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Non Hamas supporters do though ( see above). And there are no Hamas supporters here.....

    Are hamas terrorists or not ?


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    #203
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    shewasdiesel wrote: »
    Are hamas terrorists or not ?

    Yes. Although killing Israeli soldiers after an invasion isn't a terrorist act, Hamas have engaged in terrorism. The 1,300 dead Palestinians, and the million displaced, are not Hamas though. Despite your attempt at collective punishment.


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    #204
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Whatever way one dresses it up the only reason Hamas haven't killed more is because Israel's missil defence system is so good. If that fails then Hamas also kill more innocent people. Both sides want blood, more blood will fuel bloodshed. It's a vicious circle. Trying to point the finger at either side as if there's somehow bad guys here is a bit futile imo. The more they delve on the past the less chances they'll have of obtaining a lasting future peace.


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    #205
    shewasdiesel
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 138 ✭✭shewasdiesel


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Yes. Although killing Israeli soldiers after an invasion isn't a terrorist act, Hamas have engaged in terrorism. The 1,300 dead Palestinians, and the million displaced, are not Hamas though. Despite your attempt at collective punishment.

    You can pretend one terrorist who chooses to kill civilians is better than another, I'm not


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    #206
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    marienbad wrote: »
    I think these are meaningless questions just designed to elicit a specific response.

    No nation with a vastly superior advantage would agree to a 10 year truce with an enemy whose goal is that state's destruction . Why would they ?
    For peace. We can go through them one by one. Tell me where there demands are unreasonable.
    the withdrawal of Israeli military tanks from the border fence area to a distance that enables Gaza farmers to access their fields and tend them freely.
    Do you have any objection to Gazan farmers farming their own land free from the risk of harm?


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    #207
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Turtwig wrote: »
    Whatever way one dresses it up the only reason Hamas haven't killed more is because Israel's missil defence system is so good. If that fails then Hamas also kill more innocent people. Both sides want blood, more blood will fuel bloodshed. It's a vicious circle. Trying to point the finger at either side as if there's somehow bad guys here is a bit futile imo. The more they delve on the past the less chances they'll have of obtaining a lasting future peace.
    But why are they firing rockets this time?


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    #208
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    But why are they firing rockets this time?

    To try to kill people.


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    #209
    shewasdiesel
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 138 ✭✭shewasdiesel


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    But why are they firing rockets this time?

    The same reason the Israelis are, to terrorise and kill civilians.


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    #210
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    For peace. We can go through them one by one. Tell me where there demands are unreasonable.


    Do you have any objection to Gazan farmers farming their own land free from the risk of harm?

    No need, why not answer my question ?


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    #211
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Turtwig wrote: »
    To try to kill people.
    OK, but why are they trying to kill people? What is their motivation? 1) In general and 2) In this specific case


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