Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Actually, its on you. It's an IDF video. The IDF are not an unbiased organisation on the sidelines.

Generally how it goes is that is up the the refuter to support their claim with actual proof and evidence. Shouting 'IDF' or 'Mossad' or 'Bad Source' generally tends to be the easy way out. If the video is wrongly translated then go ahead and prove it. Otherwise your claim is baseless until proven otherwise.

Azwaldo55

Brown Bomber wrote: »

There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel's encouragement (to divide & conquer) and more importantly no first intifada, which led to Hamas' formation if it wasn't for the then 20 year old brutal occupation and yet more IDF murder in cold blood of 5 Palestinians including once again children.

There would be no Hezbollah if it wasn't for the need to counter Israeli aggression through their Christian cut throat militias. There would be no Muhammed Atta crashing a plane into the Twin Towers if he hadn't witnessed the horrors carried out the Israelis against the people of Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath of 96.

There would be no 9/11 if there had been no Muhammad who raped a 9 year old girl when he was 53 who every Muslim is supposed to revere like Jesus?

Have a read of the Koran and the Hadiths and tell me that this vile genocidal religion called Islam which means submission would produce anything other than lunatic monsters?
The 9/11 attacks involved the use of super modern jet airliners being hijacked by a bunch of savages to be smashed into a pair of super modern skyscrapers.
That should tell you all you need to know about these atavistic savages who want to turn the clock back to the 7th century.
If oil had never been discovered in the Middle East the hijackers would have been herdsmen probably having sexual intercourse with cloven hooved animals.
The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent jihads were only made possible by modern technology that none of these backwards crap holes in the Middle East can ever produce.
They believe they are destined to be guided by the hand of Allah to rule humanity but they need infidels to find the oil and drill for it, they need infidels to manufacture the AK-47 rifles and RPG-7 rocket launchers and the kuffars to manufacture the I-phones they use to film the slow decapitations they post on liveleak.com and worldstarhiphop.com.

SeaBreezes

marienbad wrote: »

At this stage is difficult to see anyway out of the impasse, is the will to resolve it even there.[/]

Unfortunately I do believe your right.
The genocidal slaughter of the palestinians has been going on for decades.
Israel by systematically destroying the power plant, water plant, hospitals and UN schools has just created a humanitarian catastrophe for 2 million women and children. They will slowly starve/die of thirst/disease.

All because they were born on a patch of land Israel wants.

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

And if we did'nt have partition there would have been no PIRA , Continuity etc . But there was and there is.

So the world is as we find it , whereto from here ?

You miss the point. There would be no resistance movement if there was nothing to resist to.

Brown Bomber

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

There would be no 9/11 if there had been no Muhammad who raped a 9 year old girl when he was 53 who every Muslim is supposed to revere like Jesus?

Have a read of the Koran and the Hadiths and tell me that this vile genocidal religion called Islam which means submission would produce anything other than lunatic monsters?
The 9/11 attacks involved the use of super modern jet airliners being hijacked by a bunch of savages to be smashed into a pair of super modern skyscrapers.
That should tell you all you need to know about these atavistic savages who want to turn the clock back to the 7th century.
If oil had never been discovered in the Middle East the hijackers would have been herdsmen probably having sexual intercourse with cloven hooved animals.
The 9/11 attacks and the subsequent jihads were only made possible by modern technology that none of these backwards crap holes in the Middle East can ever produce.
They believe they are destined to be guided by the hand of Allah to rule humanity but they need infidels to find the oil and drill for it, they need infidels to manufacture the AK-47 rifles and RPG-7 rocket launchers and the kuffars to manufacture the I-phones they use to film the slow decapitations they post on liveleak.com and worldstarhiphop.com.

Is there a point to your xenophobic rant? And like it or not Israeli brutality and colonialism was one of the prime motivating factors for the Al Qaeda movement. You don't have to look any farther than bin Laden's fatwas.

Turtwig

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

If oil had never been discovered in the Middle East the hijackers would have been herdsmen probably having sexual intercourse with cloven hooved animals.

Mod: If you post another denigrating flame baiting remark like the above you will banned from this forum. Consider this fair warning.

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

At this stage is difficult to see anyway out of the impasse, is the will to resolve it even there.

I would say yes. Hamas had just resolved their differences with Fatah and had joined the PLO, making them de-facto accepting the 67 borders with Israel as their neighbour.

It was Israel who torpedoed the recent peace talks despite Abbas making every conceivable concession - and this is according to the Americans!

Finally, Hamas have very recently offered a 10 year ceasefire with in my opinion very reasonable conditions. Do you object to any of the below?

Report: Hamas, Islamic Jihad offer 10-year truce
Published Wednesday 16/07/2014 (updated) 17/07/2014 14:03

(MaanImages)


BETHLEHEM (Ma'an) -- Hamas and Islamic Jihad have submitted a list of 10 demands to Egypt to establish a 10-year truce with Israel, the Hebrew-language daily Maariv reported Wednesday.

Maariv quoted a “high-profile” Palestinian source as confirming that Hamas and Islamic Jihad were willing to sign a truce if their 10 conditions were met.

The first demand, according to Maariv, is the withdrawal of Israeli military tanks from the border fence area to a distance that enables Gaza farmers to access their fields and tend them freely.

In addition, Israel must free all Palestinian prisoners detained after the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers in the southern West Bank including those who were freed as part of Gilad Shalit prisoner swap. This precondition also includes softening procedures against all prisoners in Israeli custody.

A third demand stipulates that Israel ends the crippling siege on the coastal enclave, which means reopening all border crossings and allowing the entry of construction materials and all requirements needed to run the Gaza Strip’s power station.

The fourth demand stipulates the opening of an international seaport and international airport in the Gaza Strip to be run and monitored by the United Nations.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad also demanded that Israel increases the Gaza fishing zone to 10 nautical miles and allows Gaza fishermen to use large fishing ships.

Furthermore, the Rafah crossing between Egypt and the Gaza Strip should be monitored by international crews from friendly and Arab countries.

Israel must commit to a ceasefire for 10 years which includes closing Gaza airspace to Israeli aircraft, it added.

Moreover, Israel must give Gaza residents permission to visit Jerusalem and pray in the al-Aqsa Mosque.

Another stipulation demands that Israel abstain from any intervention in Palestinian internal affairs including political arrangements and the reconciliation agreement and all its consequences.

Finally, the Gaza industrial zone must be re-established.

marienbad

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You miss the point. There would be no resistance movement if there was nothing to resist to.

In the context of the world as it is ,that is a quite meaningless statement.

marienbad

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I would say yes. Hamas had just resolved their differences with Fatah and had joined the PLO, making them de-facto accepting the 67 borders with Israel as their neighbour.

It was Israel who torpedoed the recent peace talks despite Abbas making every conceivable concession - and this is according to the Americans!

Finally, Hamas have very recently offered a 10 year ceasefire with in my opinion very reasonable conditions. Do you object to any of the below?

Why 10 years ? And what happens after ?

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

In the context of the world as it is ,that is a quite meaningless statement.

I disagree. Violence, injustice, treachery, war etc breeds contempt. You can't cage a population, half-starve them, humiliate them on a daily basis for decade after decade and not expect blowback.

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

Why 10 years ? And what happens after ?

Can't you work that out for yourself?

And can you please answer the question? Which if any of the conditions, which only move the Gazan people a couple of rungs up to being closer to a still sub-normal life do you find unreasonable? Why?

Frank Lee Midere

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Harris is 100% correct.

Supposing a lunatic walked into a shopping mall with a baby strapped to his body and he started spraying people left and right with bullets? When the cops turned up they might have to open fire on him to save others and in the process kill the baby.

That is what we are talking about here.

When David Koresh and his fanatical followers held out against the federal government they used the very children they were ritually sexually abusing as human shields and when the Feds tried to break into the compound they used tanks mounted with rams to break holes in the walls so they could pump in gas canisters to flush them all out into the open.

Koresh and his followers set fire to their compound and worse the tear gas may have been flammable and turned the whole place into an inferno.

The Feds had no choice but to take down the compound which was full of religious nuts plotting terror attacks, armed to the teeth with military hardware and sexually abusing and raping children. Koresh and his people killed and wounded federal agents and they created the siege that ended in a nightmare.

The whole thing went to hell because of Koresh.

Ah. The fascist new atheist. A lot of that story is debatable. Most opinion I have read indicates that the FBI caused the fire, and therefore killed the inhabitants.

Brown Bomber

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Ah. The fascist new atheist. A lot of that story is debatable. Most opinion I have read indicates that the FBI caused the fire, and therefore killed the inhabitants.

The Waco massacre is actually a good analogy for the Gaza massacre(s) but not for the asinine reasons stated by Az. A group placed under siege by a powerful second group who subject them to torture and then massacre them indiscriminately, attempt to cover up there crimes and demonise the victim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQjlpK9OzNM

Also, it is a good example of violence and injustice causing blowback - it is not exclusive to Muslims.

The Oklahoma City bombing was a revenge attack for Waco.

Frank Lee Midere

By the way, on the subject of the bold Sam Harris - I imagine he would have choice words about any other European descendent people who settled an area based on words in a holy book and dubious ownership claims from 2000 years ago, kicked out the indigenous brown people, allowed in only their sect and race, and disbarred inter marriage with the remaining browns because only religious ceremonies were recognised by the state. There might be an angry book in it. Or two.

Frank Lee Midere

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The Waco massacre is actually a good analogy for the Gaza massacre(s) but not for the asinine reasons stated by Az. A group placed under siege by a powerful second group who subject them to torture and then massacre them indiscriminately, attempt to cover up there crimes and demonise the victim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQjlpK9OzNM

Also, it is a good example of violence and injustice causing blowback - it is not exclusive to Muslims.

The Oklahoma City bombing was a revenge attack for Waco.

It's a good test of proper voltarian liberalism. Koresh was nuts. McVeigh was nuts. The branch Davidians were nuts. The whole thing was sinister.

Nevertheless a militarised police force shouldn't burn people alive for not being perfect citizens.

( and if you believe that any group would choose to burn themselves alive seek help).

jank

Brown Bomber wrote: »

There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel's encouragement (to divide & conquer) and more importantly no first intifada, which led to Hamas' formation if it wasn't for the then 20 year old brutal occupation and yet more IDF murder in cold blood of 5 Palestinians including once again children.

There would be no Hezbollah if it wasn't for the need to counter Israeli aggression through their Christian cut throat militias. There would be no Muhammed Atta crashing a plane into the Twin Towers if he hadn't witnessed the horrors carried out the Israelis against the people of Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath of 96.

This narrative really annoys me. People in the Middle East and those of a certain political ideology will always blame the West/USA/Israel for all the wrongs of that region. This then absolves Muslims from all blame when they are killing each other or trying to kill Jews or Westerns.

I fail to see why this narrative is used as an excuse for a political charter that states a good Muslim should kill Jews. It fails to explain the level of extremism displayed in that part of the world. If fails to explain why Sunni's and Shiites hate each other. It fails to account for the Ottomans Empire influence who ruled over that region for 500 years. If fails to explain blatant human rights abuse against Women. It fails to explain why in 2014 there is no true democracy in the Arab or Persian world.

The logical conclusion to the argument put forward above is that there would be no trouble in Palestine if there were no Jews living there but I think it is safe to guess that some other persecution complex would be drawn from as an excuse to commit murder and extol the virtues of Genocide. Thankfully in the free world we are safe and able to debate these issues without the fear of some hooded thug tapping us on the shoulder with an AK-47.

marienbad

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I disagree. Violence, injustice, treachery, war etc breeds contempt. You can't cage a population, half-starve them, humiliate them on a daily basis for decade after decade and not expect blowback.

Again you are missing my point , indignation and anger is not an argument.

The situation is as it is, to subvert Jerry Adam's phrase ' Israel is not going away you know ' and no amount of saying you can't do this that or the other
(particularly when they can) will change that fact.

So how do we move forward ?

marienbad

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Can't you work that out for yourself?

And can you please answer the question? Which if any of the conditions, which only move the Gazan people a couple of rungs up to being closer to a still sub-normal life do you find unreasonable? Why?

Actually I can't work it out for myself and neither can you.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Em, that is not what I wrote. If you want to quote me quote me accurately instead of trying side tracking and evading the issue of you not condemning Hamas for what they are.

That's an exact quote "I have been on record on being against the settlement of the west bank, yet you seem to think the only solution to stop this is the attempted murder of Jews."

Either back it up or withdraw it.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

This narrative really (............................)on the shoulder with an AK-47.

An impressive list of stereotypes

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Generally how it goes is that is up the the refuter to support their claim with actual proof and evidence. Shouting 'IDF' or 'Mossad' or 'Bad Source' generally tends to be the easy way out. If the video is wrongly translated then go ahead and prove it. Otherwise your claim is baseless until proven otherwise.

I can't speak Arabic. As there are two sides to the conflict, and the video is provided by one of them, it makes little sense to trust it. Nor does it literally say what the person claims in the suspect translation provided.

porsche959

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

( and if you believe that any group would choose to burn themselves alive seek help).

As regards the Waco affair, I have strong reservations about the actions of the US federal government in that case, but if you really and truly don't believe that any group could possibly choose to burn themselves alive, please do some basic research on cults and group-think psychology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28religious_group%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones


Arguably, the actions of the US government in Waco, which I'm inclined to agree were wrong, based on the limited amount I've read about it, were based on an over-reaction influenced by their failure to act in the Jim Jones/Guyana affair.

porsche959

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Also, it is a good example of violence and injustice causing blowback - it is not exclusive to Muslims.

The Oklahoma City bombing was a revenge attack for Waco.

The late Gore Vidal apparently took seriously the conspiracy theory that McVeigh was a patsy, though I'm inclined to think he (Vidal) lost the plot with that one.

porsche959

Brown Bomber wrote: »

There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel's encouragement (to divide & conquer) and more importantly no first intifada, which led to Hamas' formation if it wasn't for the then 20 year old brutal occupation and yet more IDF murder in cold blood of 5 Palestinians including once again children.

There would be no Hezbollah if it wasn't for the need to counter Israeli aggression through their Christian cut throat militias. There would be no Muhammed Atta crashing a plane into the Twin Towers if he hadn't witnessed the horrors carried out the Israelis against the people of Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath of 96.

And there would be no state of Israel if it wasn't for...

jank

Nodin wrote: »

I can't speak Arabic.

That much is obvious but you seem to be aware that it was translated by the IDF therefore the translation is wrong. Again, it is up to you to prove its wrong. Not just smear it in the hope people dismiss it outright. Smearing something is easy.

R P McMurphy

porsche959 wrote: »

As regards the Waco affair, I have strong reservations about the actions of the US federal government in that case, but if you really and truly don't believe that any group could possibly choose to burn themselves alive, please do some basic research on cults and group-think psychology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28religious_group%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones


Arguably, the actions of the US government in Waco, which I'm inclined to agree were wrong, based on the limited amount I've read about it, were based on an over-reaction influenced by their failure to act in the Jim Jones/Guyana affair.

You can literally see the tank shooting flames into the building. Right on camera

carpejugulum

The assumption that Middle East would be peaceful if it wasn't for Israel is idiotic.

Actually, why are people not outraged about what's going on in Syria, where 100 times more people died and the number of refugees exceeds the entire Palestinian population?

carpejugulum

Nodin wrote: »

An impressive list of stereotypes

Let's debunk them, shall we?

Frank Lee Midere

porsche959 wrote: »

As regards the Waco affair, I have strong reservations about the actions of the US federal government in that case, but if you really and truly don't believe that any group could possibly choose to burn themselves alive, please do some basic research on cults and group-think psychology:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27s_Gate_%28religious_group%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones


Arguably, the actions of the US government in Waco, which I'm inclined to agree were wrong, based on the limited amount I've read about it, were based on an over-reaction influenced by their failure to act in the Jim Jones/Guyana affair.

I am well aware of Jones.

I was going to obliquely reference Jim jones by saying after I doubted that they would burn themselves.. "Maybe take a pill or kill themselves with a gun". They had guns. Setting fire to your own compound and then waiting as the flames engulfed everybody, including your children - the most horrible way to die, and most peoples biggest fear - that's what I doubt.

Frank Lee Midere

carpejugulum wrote: »

The assumption that Middle East would be peaceful if it wasn't for Israel is idiotic.

Actually, why are people not outraged about what's going on in Syria, where 100 times more people died and the number of refugees exceeds the entire Palestinian population?

People are outraged. Where however are the Assad supporters to engage?