Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

recedite

shewasdiesel wrote: »

I'm also wondering why Egypt are not opening their border and helping all those refugees ?

Good question, there could be many possibilities, and I'm not saying I know the answer, but.... The previous Mubarrak govt. may have done some deal with Israel to stop arms getting in from the Egyptian side, but oddly enough when the Muslim Brotherhood gained control they relaxed the border controls a bit, but did not throw the borders open.

It seems to boil down to this; if the border was opened, refugees would leave and many would not go back. Many of them are radicalised militant islamic fundamentalists. If they moved to Egypt, it would be a good result for Israel, but bad for Egypt.
If Israel could force the Gazans out tomorrow, it would go in and build new settlements for hardline jews the day after.

SeaBreezes

jank wrote: »

Would you care to address the key point I made, that Hamas would if they could commit genocide against the Jews and Israel? Do you agree that they are religious fanatics who have perpetuated a cult of martyrdom inside the Gaza strip? Do you agree that they are terrorists?

And Zionism isnt religious fanaticism? It hasnt already committed to complete annilation of the Palestine (christian or Muslim) race or any race that lives on the land these religious fanatics believe the bible has promised them?

Do you agree that the ACTUAL bombing of the following qualifies ANY organisation as terrorist:

1) Water plant upon which 2 million people are dependent half of which are kids.

2) Power plant, with same number of people dependent.

3) Hospitals

4) UN schools sheltering refugees. (more than one)

5) Medical staff travelling in UN cars.

6) Children (oops I mean Human Shields) playing on a beach desperately trying to run from the gunfire.

7) Houses for the severely disabled.

And joining an army and fighting for your country, prepared to die for your religious beliefs... isnt that martyrdom?

Tell me again who the terrorists are, cause right now.. I know who I see committing the atrocities... And If I hear the fricking term 'Human Shield' one more time....

The person pulling the trigger that commits this atrocity is the person responsible.
Always.

Frankly, Im surprised anyone can look at themselves in the the mirror if they support such horrific behaviour.

marienbad

SeaBreezes wrote: »

And Zionism isnt religious fanaticism? It hasnt already committed to complete annilation of the Palestine (christian or Muslim) race or any race that lives on the land these religious fanatics believe the bible has promised them?

Do you agree that the ACTUAL bombing of the following qualifies ANY organisation as terrorist:

1) Water plant upon which 2 million people are dependent half of which are kids.

2) Power plant, with same number of people dependent.

3) Hospitals

4) UN schools sheltering refugees. (more than one)

5) Medical staff travelling in UN cars.

6) Children (oops I mean Human Shields) playing on a beach desperately trying to run from the gunfire.

7) Houses for the severely disabled.

And joining an army and fighting for your country, prepared to die for your religious beliefs... isnt that martyrdom?

Tell me again who the terrorists are, cause right now.. I know who I see committing the atrocities... And If I hear the fricking term 'Human Shield' one more time....

The person pulling the trigger that commits this atrocity is the person responsible.
Always.

Frankly, Im surprised anyone can look at themselves in the the mirror if they support such horrific behaviour.

Have you a solution ?

Azwaldo55

SeaBreezes wrote: »

1) Water plant upon which 2 million people are dependent half of which are kids.

Boo hoo! If their government fires rockets at Israeli civilians then there are consequences. Play the violins for someone who cares.

2) Power plant, with same number of people dependent.

And Hamas too. Why not deprive Hamas of electrical power? Force them to use their back up generators. There is a war on after all isn't there?

3) Hospitals

Hamas has been using hospitals in Gaza as weapons stores and launch pads for rockets.

4) UN schools sheltering refugees. (more than one)

Rocket stores have been found in UN schools and they have been used as rocket launch sites.

5) Medical staff travelling in UN cars.

UN cars as well as ambulances are being used to ferry fighters and weapons around Gaza.

6) Children (oops I mean Human Shields) playing on a beach desperately trying to run from the gunfire.

The beach was used as a launch site for rocket attacks on Israel.

7) Houses for the severely disabled.

Rocket sites and tunnels have been found in houses all over Gaza.

The person pulling the trigger that commits this atrocity is the person responsible.
Always.

If you fire rockets at Israeli civilians and you use Palestinian civilians to protect those rocket sites then you are committing a DOUBLE war crime.

Frankly, Im surprised anyone can look at themselves in the the mirror if they support such horrific behaviour.

You are making excuses for Islamic terrorists bent on destroying Israel and killing all the Jews. Look at a mirror yourself.

paulmcshane

jank wrote: »

Would you care to address the key point I made, that Hamas would if they could commit genocide against the Jews and Israel? Do you agree that they are religious fanatics who have perpetuated a cult of martyrdom inside the Gaza strip? Do you agree that they are terrorists?

Would you agree a lot of the above could also be applied to Israel?

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

...........................

Do you know that Israel is colonising the West Bank, Golan and Arab East Jerusalem?

Do you know how the Palestinians are treated there?

Azwaldo55

I wonder what would the Brits have done if SF/IRA had started firing thousands of Rockets from densely populated civilian areas, and public buildings in the Republic, into British Cities and the Irish Government, like the PNA were unwilling / unable to stop them ? I doubt the Brits would bomb thousands of Irish civilians.

Of course they would have.

We know the British flooded Northern Ireland with thousands of troops and they used special forces and police units and loyalist paramilitaries to knock off republicans.
In an alternate universe Home Rule might have been passed in 1914 and the Irish Parliamentary Party might have lost the 1918 election to Sinn Féin anyway. Fast forward to the 1960s and the loyalists might have launched an armed struggle against the Irish government just as the republicans launched an armed struggle against the British government in our timeline.
Do you think the Irish government would have tolerated from loyalists what the British government had to deal with from republicans? The gloves would have come off.
Look at what Russia did to the Chechens when they blew up apartment blocks in Russians cities and blew airplanes out of the sky and blew up train stations? They went to town on the Chechens.
The Pakistani military is whacking lumps out of the Pakistani Taliban in the tribal areas as we speak.
China is fighting an Islamic insurgency in the Muslim west of the country.
They are only doing what Israel are doing in Gaza.
In Sri Lanka the government bulldozed through the Tamil Tiger held region and flattened the place.
Somehow Israel gets special treatment from protestors.
It's really weird.

Azwaldo55

Nodin wrote: »

Do you know that Israel is colonising the West Bank, Golan and Arab East Jerusalem?

Do you know how the Palestinians are treated there?

And that somehow excuses Islamic supremacist nutjobs who want to kill all the Jews? After 70 years of endless Palestinian attacks jeez is there any wonder why the Israelis aren't interested in peace and just want to move the Palestinians out? I don't blame them.
If I was Israeli I would probably be in the IDF.
Of course if I was a Palestinian I would be browned off but I would have only myself to blame for attacking Israel and not learning from getting my backside royally kicked for seven decades.
You would think the Palestinians would have grasped the chance for peace with both hands?
The more they fight the more land they lose and more of them get nailed.
It would be comical if it were not so tragic.
My pity and sympathy for these stupid people deserted long ago.

Nodin

You seem remarkably ignorant of the situation. The West Bank is peaceful, is governed by the secular Fatah, and has been increasingly colonised by Israel, against International law. It's not a grey area up for debate, because what they're doing is explicitly forbidden under the Geneva convention.

Secondly, there is no 'right of conquest' in International law,. so who attacked what when is irrelevant.

Do you think its right that Israel subjects Palestinians to a two tier apartheid society in the West Bank?

Azwaldo55

Nodin wrote: »

You seem remarkably ignorant of the situation. The West Bank is peaceful, is governed by the secular Fatah, and has been increasingly colonised by Israel, against International law. It's not a grey area up for debate, because what they're doing is explicitly forbidden under the Geneva convention.

Secondly, there is no 'right of conquest' in International law,. so who attacked what when is irrelevant.

Do you think its right that Israel subjects Palestinians to a two tier apartheid society in the West Bank?

Cry me a river. Fatah are a few rungs less nasty than Hamas but not much. They had their chance years ago to agree to a two state solution and they threw it back in the face of the UN. Every deal made since then they break. Arafat chose to launch a second intifada and ended up under effective house arrest even through Barak offered him 95% of the West Bank and Jerusalem as his capital. They only have themselves to blame for their predicament.

There are bigger problems in the world to care about.

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Cry me a river. Fatah are a few rungs less nasty than Hamas but not much. They had their chance years ago to agree to a two state solution and they threw it back in the face of the UN. .

Straight into rhetoric and ignoring Fatahs ceasefire. Nice.

When was this? I'm unaware of it. Please provide a source.

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

Every deal made since then they break. Arafat chose to launch a second intifada and ended up under effective house arrest even through Barak offered him 95% of the West Bank and Jerusalem as his capital. .

The plan did not offer a realistic division of Arab East Jerusalem or the West Bank, which would not have been contiguous areas.

carpejugulum

Another great piece from Sam. Too rational for Hamas apologists as expected.

Nodin

carpejugulum wrote: »

Another great piece from Sam. Too rational for Hamas apologists as expected.

Nothing to add then.

carpejugulum

From Hamas charter:

If faith is lost, there is no security and there is no life for him who does not adhere to religion. He who accepts life without religion, has taken annihilation as his companion for life.

The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Delirium

Nodin wrote: »

Nothing to add then.

Indeed. Condeming indescriminate bombing of civilian targets where children are being killed is somehow supporting Hamas?

carpejugulum

SW wrote: »

Indeed. Condeming indescriminate bombing of civilian targets where children are being killed is somehow supporting Hamas?

Back to the article:

We know the Israelis do not want to kill non-combatants, because they could kill as many as they want, and they’re not doing it.

Nodin

carpejugulum wrote: »

Back to the article:

But they are killing non-combatants in very large numbers.

Delirium

carpejugulum wrote: »

Back to the article:

Bombs are firing on buildings where children, the eldery and the sick are located. That's pretty indiscriminate in my book.

SeaBreezes

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Boo hoo! If their government fires rockets at Israeli civilians then there are consequences. Play the violins for someone who cares.



And Hamas too. Why not deprive Hamas of electrical power? Force them to use their back up generators. There is a war on after all isn't there?

Only there are 2 million people and children depending on this. You're not saying they are ALL terrorists surely?

Hamas has been using hospitals in Gaza as weapons stores and launch pads for rockets.

Actually no, thats what the people bombing them are saying. UN investigations find the opposite.

Rocket stores have been found in UN schools and they have been used as rocket launch sites.

Seriously? What planet are you from?

UN cars as well as ambulances are being used to ferry fighters and weapons around Gaza.

Again, for shame...

The beach was used as a launch site for rocket attacks on Israel.

Yes, and those little kids running on the beach, obviously firing them...

Rocket sites and tunnels have been found in houses all over Gaza.

Ah ha ha ha.. Yes, severly disabled adults and they're carers are the worst kind of hamas terrorist.. Obviously.

If you fire rockets at Israeli civilians and you use Palestinian civilians to protect those rocket sites then you are committing a DOUBLE war crime.

No. If you target civilians and kill them you are committing a war crime.

You are making excuses for Islamic terrorists bent on destroying Israel and killing all the Jews. Look at a mirror yourself.

No Im not excusing any form of terrorism. You are.

I have a mirror. You may want to borrow it.

Ardent

The Israeli army could kill everyone in Gaza tomorrow. So what does that mean? Well, it means that, when they drop a bomb on a beach and kill four Palestinian children, as happened last week, this is almost certainly an accident. They’re not targeting children. They could target as many children as they want. Every time a Palestinian child dies, Israel edges ever closer to becoming an international pariah. So the Israelis take great pains not to kill children and other noncombatants.

It's unfortunate and downright tragic that children are dying in this conflict, but I have to agree here - I blame Hamas more for the loss of young lives than Israel. Who do you blame for the decision to launch rockets into Israel from outside the front door of a school?

Nodin

Ardent wrote: »

It's unfortunate and downright tragic that children are dying in this conflict, but I have to agree here - I blame Hamas more for the loss of young lives than Israel. Who do you blame for the decision to launch rockets into Israel from outside the front door of a school?

Why do you accept that as truth?

SeaBreezes

marienbad wrote: »

Have you a solution ?

Actually yes.

Stop the genocide. Stop the zionist expansion into land that is not theirs.

Stop the blockade and restrictions that prevent people from living a respectful existence with a good quality of life.

And respect and fulfill agreed conventions. In fairness, Israel has not honored one single agreement in the last 10 years. Maybe its time to start.

R P McMurphy

Ardent wrote: »

It's unfortunate and downright tragic that children are dying in this conflict, but I have to agree here - I blame Hamas more for the loss of young lives than Israel. Who do you blame for the decision to launch rockets into Israel from outside the front door of a school?

That is a straight out lie. The Israelis are not even claiming that. The intended target was two people on a motorbike. The fact that they decided to fire a rocket at them from a drone when they were surrounded by innocent civilians obviously did not cause them much concern or they could have waited. The people to blame for the deaths are those firing the rockets and the people ordering them to

marienbad

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Actually yes.

Stop the genocide. Stop the zionist expansion into land that is not theirs.

Stop the blockade and restrictions that prevent people from living a respectful existence with a good quality of life.

And respect and fulfill agreed conventions. In fairness, Israel has not honored one single agreement in the last 10 years. Maybe its time to start.

And will this solve the problem do you think ? Will the rockets stop ?

Brown Bomber

Ozwaldo,

Could you please explain this earlier statement made by you which clearly isn't the case?

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

As far as I am concerned Israelis and Palestinians are both loathsome. They want to kill each other. Fine by me. I simply do not care anymore.

Brown Bomber

marienbad wrote: »

And will this solve the problem do you think ? Will the rockets stop ?

There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel's encouragement (to divide & conquer) and more importantly no first intifada, which led to Hamas' formation if it wasn't for the then 20 year old brutal occupation and yet more IDF murder in cold blood of 5 Palestinians including once again children.

There would be no Hezbollah if it wasn't for the need to counter Israeli aggression through their Christian cut throat militias. There would be no Muhammed Atta crashing a plane into the Twin Towers if he hadn't witnessed the horrors carried out the Israelis against the people of Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath of 96.

marienbad

Brown Bomber wrote: »

There would be no Hamas if it wasn't for Israel's encouragement (to divide & conquer) and more importantly no first intifada, which led to Hamas' formation if it wasn't for the then 20 year old brutal occupation and yet more IDF murder in cold blood of 5 Palestinians including once again children.

There would be no Hezbollah if it wasn't for the need to counter Israeli aggression through their Christian cut throat militias. There would be no Muhammed Atta crashing a plane into the Twin Towers if he hadn't witnessed the horrors carried out the Israelis against the people of Lebanon in Operation Grapes of Wrath of 96.

And if we did'nt have partition there would have been no PIRA , Continuity etc . But there was and there is.

So the world is as we find it , whereto from here ?

SeaBreezes

marienbad wrote: »

And will this solve the problem do you think ? Will the rockets stop ?

Whats your solution?

jank

Nodin wrote: »

"yet you seem to think the only solution to stop this is the attempted murder of Jews"

It's effectively the same thing. Either back it up or withdraw it.

Em, that is not what I wrote. If you want to quote me quote me accurately instead of trying side tracking and evading the issue of you not condemning Hamas for what they are.

marienbad

SeaBreezes wrote: »

Whats your solution?

At this stage is difficult to see anyway out of the impasse, is the will to resolve it even there.