Sam Harris on the Israel-Palestine Conflict

jank

Nodin wrote: »

No, its being built on by colonists and its inhabitants brutalised in a low key fashion. While its possible to repair a destroyed house or fill a crater, the consequences of trying to remove a settlement are grim indeed.

I have been on record on being against the settlement of the west bank, yet you seem to think the only solution to stop this is the attempted murder of Jews. As if one justifies the other. This type of appeasement sometimes facinates me. Is Neville Chamberlain your hero?

Regardless of this are residents of the west bank better off than those of Gaza? The answer would be yes, therefore it is logical and rational that to launch a futile war against Israel is nonsensical from both a military and political point of view.

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

I have been on record on being against the settlement of the west bank, yet you seem to think the only solution to stop this is the attempted murder of Jews. As if one justifies the other. This type of appeasement sometimes facinates me. Is Neville Chamberlain your hero?

Regardless of this are residents of the west bank better off than those of Gaza? The answer would be yes, therefore it is logical and rational that to launch a futile war against Israel is nonsensical from both a military and political point of view.

So by your logic the Palastinians should shut up and put up as well as taking any sh1t Israel cares to throw at them. If that is logical then God help your wit.

No wonder they would choose to die rather than live cooped-up like chickens.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

I have been on record on being against the settlement of the west bank, yet you seem to think the only solution to stop this is the attempted murder of Jews. As if one justifies the other. This type of appeasement sometimes facinates me. Is Neville Chamberlain your hero?.

Where did I sanction the murder of "Jews"?

jank wrote: »

Regardless of this are residents of the west bank better off than those of Gaza? The answer would be yes, therefore it is logical and rational that to launch a futile war against Israel is nonsensical from both a military and political point of view.

No, it would not be "yes".

jank

tayto lover wrote: »

So by your logic the Palastinians should shut up and put up as well as taking any sh1t Israel cares to throw at them. If that is logical then God help your wit.

No wonder they would choose to die rather than live cooped-up like chickens.

So again, the answer must be death, suicide bombings, rocket attacks and building tunnels... Tell me apart from the stupid and nonsensical military action being performed by Hamas what should they be doing to help themselves? Perhaps dropping the genocidal nature of their politics might be a start.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Where did I sanction the murder of "Jews"?



No, it would not be "yes".

a) You don't condone Hamas and take every opportunity to pour cold water over their actions and fanatic religious charter that calls for the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews. You flat out refuse to call them a terrorist organisation even though every international organisation calls them thus.
b)How many people in the West Bank have been injured and killed during the latest conflict...there in lies the answer.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

a) You don't condone Hamas and take every opportunity to pour cold water over their actions and fanatic religious charter that calls for the destruction of Israel and killing of Jews. You flat out refuse to call them a terrorist organisation even though every international organisation calls them thus..

Intellectual dishonesty doesn't help you.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=91502765&postcount=397

Where have I called for the killing of Jews? Either back up your remark or withdraw it please.

jank wrote: »

b)How many people in the West Bank have been injured and killed during the latest conflict...there in lies the answer.

15 to 20. The settlements go on, as do the checkpoints, the beatings etc.

tayto lover

jank wrote: »

So again, the answer must be death, suicide bombings, rocket attacks and building tunnels... Tell me apart from the stupid and nonsensical military action being performed by Hamas what should they be doing to help themselves? Perhaps dropping the genocidal nature of their politics might be a start.

:rolleyes:
Only one side showing that at the moment in fairness. The whole world can see that.

recedite

jank wrote: »

...Sue for permanent peace and concentrate on bettering your peoples lot rather then fighting a conflict you have zero chance of winning.
Lets put it this way. Are the few dissident republicans right to continue to fight the occupation of NI by the British even though they have no hope of winning the conflict on military terms?

The equivalent would be if loyalist paramilitaries had seized the greater part of N. Ireland and called it "Protestant-land". Then herded and squeezed all the nationalists into two self governing areas; West Belfast and Derry.
Nobody would be surprised if radical republican paramilitaries gained control of the two areas. Nobody would be surprised if Protestant-land worked hard to keep the organizations controlling these two areas divided from each other. Nobody would expect the nationalists to give up and lie down, despite the odds against them.

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The only "one state" solution likely to happen is greater israel accompanied by ethic cleansing.
The two state solution is dead. Israel is moving further to the right every generation.

And yet, the Greater Israel solution has proved unsustainable over all these years, because despite mass arab emigration to Lebanon, Jordan and elsewhere, the overcrowded inhabitants of Gaza and West Bank just will not make themselves disappear.

SeaBreezes

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

The moral bankruptcy of the "they would if they could" argument is that of a petulant child. Particularly as you are transferring Hamas' statements on to all Palestinians.

There are ISIS cells in the UK. ISIS are a subset of the Muslim population. Should we bomb, arrest or deport the UK Muslim population?

Take it further. There are christian palestines subjected to the same violence as palestine muslims. One church in a parish in gaza was warned to move. They house 30 severly disabled kids, 1 priest and 3 nuns. They had nowhere to go with the kids so had no choice but to stay put. No power, no food, all windows and their school blown out. The house they are in still stands, but surrounded by bombs and living in fear on the ground floor..

So, following the same logic.. Not all muslim occupants of the UK but ALL citizens would be targets. If there was an ISIS cell in the UK.

And the kids would be called 'human shields' as they ran away from the gun fire down the beach... Human shields.. Not children....

I am shocked ANYONE can call this genocide by any other name.

Shameful stuff.

jank

Nodin wrote: »

Where have I called for the killing of Jews? Either back up your remark or withdraw it please.

Nothing to withdraw as that is not what I said.

jank

recedite wrote: »

The equivalent would be if loyalist paramilitaries..

Stopped reading there. You do know there is a different between a standing army and a paramilitary. There is a clue in the name.

Nodin

jank wrote: »

Nothing to withdraw as that is not what I said.

"yet you seem to think the only solution to stop this is the attempted murder of Jews"

It's effectively the same thing. Either back it up or withdraw it.

Azwaldo55

This is the true face of Hamas - using their own people as human shields. :mad:

Islamic lunatic savages.

Only someone who is willfully blind or else deluded would not see through the lies and see Hamas for what they are.

Turtwig

For what it's worth I do kind of think the mass killing of Jews is a solution to this conflict. That said my proposed solution is an meteor impacting the entire area. Only solution the pessimist in me sees. This conflict is going to span generations. Even if israeli's had a complete epiphany and stop the bombing and settling. Basically they did everything ethically ideal and correct. Gaza would still be a poverty shthole rife with social problems and very much a breeding ground for extremism of some description. The only solution is to build a economy there where the social standards improve drastically. That's only ever going to be long term - and realistically Israel will never leave them open to trade and economic development. Situation is a mess : hence, meteor.

(In case it's not obvious I'm being facetious.)

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

This is the true face of Hamas - using their own people as human shields. .

You know, if we wanted to see IDF translated videos of what Hamas supposedly sa, we could just look them up ourselves.

Azwaldo55

Nodin wrote: »

You know, if we wanted to see IDF translated videos of what Hamas supposedly sa, we could just look them up ourselves.

The translation is CORRECT.

This thread is starting to resemble the dead parrot sketch.

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The translation is CORRECT.

And how do you know that?

Azwaldo55

Turtwig wrote: »

For what it's worth I do kind of think the mass killing of Jews is a solution to this conflict. That said my proposed solution is an meteor impacting the entire area. Only solution the pessimist in me sees. This conflict is going to span generations. Even if israeli's had a complete epiphany and stop the bombing and settling. Basically they did everything ethically ideal and correct. Gaza would still be a poverty shthole rife with social problems and very much a breeding ground for extremism of some description. The only solution is to build a economy there where the social standards improve drastically. That's only ever going to be long term - and realistically Israel will never leave them open to trade and economic development. Situation is a mess : hence, meteor.

(In case it's not obvious I'm being facetious.)

Wanting Israel hit by a meteor is admitting you want to stick your head in the sand and wish the problem away.

I witnessed a protest in Dublin yesterday and could not get my head around the sight of left wing activists who supposedly support democracy, racial and religious equality, gay rights, women's rights, secularism and pacifism marching in the street in support in opposition to a country which is democratic, pluralist, a haven of secularism, multi-culturalism, women's rights, gay rights and freedom in the Middle East which is under attack from an Islamic supremacist terrorist group who would kill every one of the demonstrators if they had the chance.

The reason is that the protestors refuse to accept the reality of Hamas and other Islamic extremist group generally and demonize Israel.

The same phenomenon exists among 9/11 Truthers who want to deny the threat to America from Islamic terrorism and instead dream up a bizarre conspiracy that the US government were behind the attacks.

It is comforting but ultimately denies reality.

Israel is a Western style society just like us and it is at the coal face where the West meets the medievalist Islamic world.

If today the Muslims still ruled part of Spain or Sicily or the Balkans then Europe would face the same problem that Israel faces.

Azwaldo55

Nodin wrote: »

And how do you know that?

The burden of proof is on you. Prove that the video is not correctly translated. Go ahead. You said it was incorrectly translated. Prove it.

When faced with irrefutable proof from the very lips of a Hamas member who admits his organization is using Palestinian civilians as human shields you refuse to face reality.

Monty Python could not have written the script you are using!

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

The burden of proof is on you.

Actually, its on you. It's an IDF video. The IDF are not an unbiased organisation on the sidelines.

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

.........................

I witnessed a protest in Dublin yesterday and could not get my head around the sight of left wing activists who supposedly support democracy, racial and religious equality, gay rights, women's rights, secularism and pacifism marching in the street in support in opposition to a country which is democratic, pluralist, a haven of secularism, multi-culturalism, women's rights, gay rights and freedom in the Middle East which is under attack from an Islamic supremacist terrorist group who would kill every one of the demonstrators if they had the chance. .....................

More generalised guff.

You know that Israel is colonising the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem? You know how the Palestinians are treated there? That isn't the act of a western European style democracy in the 21st century.

Azwaldo55

Nodin wrote: »

Actually, its on you. It's an IDF video. The IDF are not an unbiased organisation on the sidelines.

You claim the video is not truthful translation then prove it. Prove it.

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

You claim the video is not truthful translation then prove it. Prove it.

I don't know whether its true or not. Neither do you. As it comes from the IDF which has managed to kill over 1,000 civillians, theres no reason to trust it.

Do you know that Israel is colonising the West Bank, Golan and Arab East Jerusalem?

Do you know how the Palestinians are treated there?

Azwaldo55

Nodin wrote: »

I don't know whether its true or not. Neither do you. As it comes from the IDF which has managed to kill over 1,000 civillians, theres no reason to trust it.

According to that logic if an IDF soldier painted a house blue you wouldn't know it was blue because of your bias against the IDF?

The truth is you refuse to open your eyes to any evidence that challenges your fixed paradigm.

Pherekydes

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

According to that logic if an IDF soldier painted a house blue you wouldn't know it was blue because of your bias against the IDF?

Just because someone tells a lie does not mean everything they say is a lie. To say otherwise is committing the ad hominem fallacy. To accuse Nodin of committing this fallacy is itself an ad hominem fallacy.

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

According to that logic if an IDF soldier painted a house blue you wouldn't know it was blue because of your bias against the IDF?
.

You seem to be confusing a hypothetical situation in which I'm colour blind with the current real world one in which I'm unable to speak Arabic.

Why do you avoid the two questions below?

Do you know that Israel is colonising the West Bank, Golan and Arab East Jerusalem?

Do you know how the Palestinians are treated there?

Azwaldo55

Pherekydes wrote: »

Just because someone tells a lie does not mean everything they say is a lie. To say otherwise is committing the ad hominem fallacy. To accuse Nodin of committing this fallacy is itself an ad hominem fallacy.

I showed him a video of a Hamas spokespearson openly admitting Hamas has a policy of using human shields and the guy starts claiming its a fake.

You can't make it up!

How many pictures and videos are there on the internet showing Hamas tunnels and rocket stores under mosques and schools and hospitals and houses and videos of Hamas firing rockets from civilian areas? Loads of them.

I cannot deny the evidence right in front of my eyes.

This is why I support Israel 100%.

Not out of choice but because the irrefutable evidence is right there that Hamas is using its own civilian population as human shields while firing rockets at Israeli civilians.

I support Israel because if Ireland was in precisely the same position we would do the same as Israel.

If an ultra-Catholic looney toon political party gained ground in Ireland and they took over a major city and started firing rockets at the rest of the country while using their own people as human shields the Irish government would have to use force just like Israel are using force against Hamas.

When Islamic terrorists took over the Moscow theatre and later the school in Beslan the Russian government used force and lots of hostages died. They had no choice and I can't see any Western government doing it any different.

When the Branch Davidians were using their own children who they were raping and abusing as human shields the Feds used force against their compound in Waco and sadly it ended in a nightmare.

What choice did they have?

This whole anti-Israel charade is just that. A charade.

We KNOW we would do exactly what Israel is doing if we were up against the lunatics of Hamas.

shewasdiesel

"If an ultra-Catholic looney toon"

What about ultra Jewish looney toons ?

I wonder what would the Brits have done if SF/IRA had started firing thousands of Rockets from densely populated civilian areas, and public buildings in the Republic, into British Cities and the Irish Government, like the PNA were unwilling / unable to stop them ? I doubt the Brits would bomb thousands of Irish civilians.

I'm also wondering why Egypt are not opening their border and helping all those refugees ?

Delirium

could you point to where in the video the speaker says Hamas has a policy of using human shields? It's only 49 seconds long but I can't see where the subtitles state what you claim.

Nodin

Azwaldo55 wrote: »

I showed him a video of a Hamas spokespearson openly admitting Hamas has a policy of using human shields and the guy starts claiming its a fake.
.................

I've no idea what he says in reality and neither do you.

Why can't you answer the following questions?

Do you know that Israel is colonising the West Bank, Golan and Arab East Jerusalem?

Do you know how the Palestinians are treated there?