New Horizon Mall

iguana

zulutango wrote: »

I have never heard the above given as reasons for the flooding of Corbally or King's Island. Is it a qualified opinion?

As far as I know, there was no official report carried out, but a detailed enough study was written by Martin Kay about it. He suggests that the flood in 2014 may have been caused by high tides and high winds coupled with the release of huge amounts of water from Ardnacrusha just as the tide was highest. The ESB refused to release their water release data so his theory couldn't be verified. Conversely the November 2009 flood was more than likely caused by the ESB not releasing enough water at Ardnacrusha in the weeks leading up to it.

The ESB had the flood gates open all the time for weeks at the time of the flooding. There was no sudden release of water. It was happening all the time. As for the building on the flood plains, I was involved back in 2002 in a case taken to stop the new road bridge being built at UL. The environmental impact study that was commissioned made it clear that building there would result in flooding further downstream but ABP dismissed it. All that area from the Clare side of UL and all around the Groody Valley has been an area of rainwater retention allowing slow drainage for hundreds of years. Once you build roadways and building foundations into it, the rainwater runs straight into the river, which means it will break it's banks further down. It's pretty basic physics. You can't fuçk about with an eco-system and expect no consequences.

I live at the top of a high hill, flooding is of absolutely no consequence to me whatsoever. I'm a couple of minutes walk away from the Horizon Mall site, a brilliant new shopping centre would be a great amenity to me, especially with it's proposed playground, as I have a 2 year old and it would be much nearer to me than Clare St. If this shopping centre was everything it's supporters claim it will be I'd be welcoming it with open arms. It would increase my local amenities, add to my quality of life, and to sound all Celtic Tiger about it, probably double the value of my house . But it won't, it's just a stupid folly that will have far reaching negative consequences for 1000s of people that aren't me. It was an obviously stupid proposal when it was first mooted and it's still stupid today.

Reputable Rog

One of the main reasons Kings Island flooded was due to damage done to the riverbanks by people bringing their horses down to the river for water. Extensive banking was done after the estates were first built, to prevent flooding and it had worked successfully until people started to punch holes in the banking and undermined its structure.
Of course this is denied locally

Mr.H

There are ways around these things. Such as build another flood plane in less populated areas. Flood planes are not exclusively determined by the river. The site where the flood plane was/The Horizon mall will be, was an absolute eye sore and a bad use of land. It looked like an abandoned plot of land that was likely infested with rats. Its fair enough the need for flood planes but they are not as important to such areas as made out by people who have loads to gain from the mall not being built.

for example its the Crescent who are objecting to this being built. They dont give two xxxxx about the city center nor did they give a xxxx about the flood plane that THEY built on

Reputable Rog

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/business-news/high-court-hearing-set-for-limerick-s-horizon-mall-1-6887952

zulutango

Do people agree with An Bord Pleanála's declaration that the Horizon Mall wouldn't seriously damage the viability of the city centre? We kind of have to take their word for it, don't we, given that they are experts in planning?

I think there might not be as much a link between these out of town centres and the viability of the city centre as is often claimed. They really serve the wider region to a far greater degree than they serve the city. I'd imagine that the vast proportion of the Crescent's business comes from shoppers who come in from rural Clare, Tipperary and Limerick. A smaller chunk would come from suburban Limerick City, and probably an even smaller proportion from the city itself. I wonder what the split is. Whatever it is, it would be similar for the Horizon Mall if it were built. The former category wouldn't be too inclined to come and shop in the city centre if the Crescent or Horizon didn't exist. It would just be too much trouble for them. The middle category (the suburbanites) are the ones who could be enticed to shop in the city centre, and who do represent a lost market to the city centre retailers. What really matters is that split between the wider rural and suburban markets. If it's heavily tipped towards the former category, then we're barking up the wrong tree, and if it's the other way, then the city centre retailers have a point.

Reputable Rog

zulutango wrote: »

Do people agree with An Bord Pleanála's declaration that the Horizon Mall wouldn't seriously damage the viability of the city centre? We kind of have to take their word for it, don't we, given that they are experts in planning?

I think there might not be as much a link between these out of town centres and the viability of the city centre as is often claimed. They really serve the wider region to a far greater degree than they serve the city. I'd imagine that the vast proportion of the Crescent's business comes from shoppers who come in from rural Clare, Tipperary and Limerick. A smaller chunk would come from suburban Limerick City, and probably an even smaller proportion from the city itself. I wonder what the split is. Whatever it is, it would be similar for the Horizon Mall if it were built. The former category wouldn't be too inclined to come and shop in the city centre if the Crescent or Horizon didn't exist. It would just be too much trouble for them. The middle category (the suburbanites) are the ones who could be enticed to shop in the city centre, and who do represent a lost market to the city centre retailers. What really matters is that split between the wider rural and suburban markets. If it's heavily tipped towards the former category, then we're barking up the wrong tree, and if it's the other way, then the city centre retailers have a point.

I'd say a huge chunk come from the Limerick Metro area, it also draws large numbers from North Cork and from Galway.

Cookiemunster

Looks like this is going to get long fingered all to way to the expiry date of the planning permission.

anne sheridan ‏@annesheridan1 4m4 minutes ago

The judicial review of An Bord Pleanala's decision to grant planning to the Horizon Mall has been adjourned to November, @Limerick_Leader

OfTheMarsWongs

Reputable Rog wrote: »

One of the main reasons Kings Island flooded was due to damage done to the riverbanks by people bringing their horses down to the river for water. Extensive banking was done after the estates were first built, to prevent flooding and it had worked successfully until people started to punch holes in the banking and undermined its structure.
Of course this is denied locally

I genuinely can't tell if you're joking. I was on the bank about a month before the floods and saw no such holes. Or do you mean the mud flats visible at low tide? Horses are more likely to 'hang out' in the field at the back of Munchins Street rather than the bank. Plenty of water there in winter.

Cookiemunster

The high court hearing is over, but the decision won't be announced until February.
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local-news/horizon-mall-developer-wanted-five-more-years-to-build-site-1-7076842
This definitely won't be built under the current planning. And the council will refuse any future planning permission.
Which ever side of the argument you're on this is nothing but a clusterfcuk. It neither gets built nor demolished and the eyesore remains sitting there for years to come.

Reputable Rog

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The high court hearing is over, but the decision won't be announced until February.
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/local-news/horizon-mall-developer-wanted-five-more-years-to-build-site-1-7076842
This definitely won't be built under the current planning. And the council will refuse any future planning permission.
Which ever side of the argument you're on this is nothing but a clusterfcuk. It neither gets built nor demolished and the eyesore remains sitting there for years to come.

The Vacant site levy if implemented could go a long way to sorting the problem.
But then if refused it could be argued that the site is worthless and then nothing can be done unless they chase him under the derelict sites act which to date has been pretty ineffective.

zulutango

Reputable Rog wrote: »

The Vacant site levy if implemented could go a long way to sorting the problem.
But then if refused it could be argued that the site is worthless and then nothing can be done unless they chase him under the derelict sites act which to date has been pretty ineffective.

The council seem very reluctant to use the Derelict Sites Act. Limerick Boat Club, for example, is not considered a derelict site by them even though any reasonable interpretation of the Act says that it is.

Has the vacant sites levy been brought into law? I heard it was scrapped.

The Cush

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/202286/High-Court-rules-Limerick-development-must.html

THE High Court has refused an appeal to prevent the €100m Horizon Mall development in Limerick from going ahead – but has maintained the extant ruling that the mammoth development must be constructed by this August.
...
Both parties have 21 days to appeal the ruling

High Court Record No. 2015 282 JR

Tefral

Not a chance is this being built by then

MrJones2013

Don't know how I feel about this, was up in Dundrum in Dublin last week and it was booming. A similar shopping complex down here might draw people in from the surrounding counties at weekends but will surely have a negative effect on the Crescent and the City Centre itself.

The city centre seems to be going in reverse, will the promises made regarding Limerick 2030 go ahead?

zulutango

I think the city's objection to Parkway Valley is misplaced. Forcing people from outerlying areas to shop in the centre isn't good for the centre or for those people. The root problem really is that so many people live so far out of the city and this is what we should be tackling.

MrJones2013

zulutango wrote: »

I think the city's objection to Parkway Valley is misplaced. Forcing people from outerlying areas to shop in the centre isn't good for the centre or for those people. The root problem really is that so many people live so far out of the city and this is what we should be tackling.

I'd agree with you but I think it's gone so far that it needs to be finished, it's an eye sore at the moment.

Hindsight is a great thing but at the time the development started someone should have had the foresight to realise that the city centre is dying a death and pushed for that to be developed rather than throwing up another complex in the outskirts.

20/20 hindsight though!

zulutango

The city is dying a death because the population has moved to the suburbs and beyond. The retailers have only followed them. Something like only 3% of the population of the Limerick metropolitan area live in the city centre. That's why it's dying, first and foremost. And that 3% aren't exactly the demographic that are big spenders.

MrJones2013

zulutango wrote: »

Something like only 3% of the population of the Limerick metropolitan area live in the city centre.

Wow, that's a ridiculously low figure, the city needs to be more liveable, hopefully this is an issue Limerick 2030 will address!

Do you know if there is anything in the pipeline to try to increase this figure?!

strettie

The other important question is that part of the city under served by retail space ? Within 7 minutes drive from Parkway Valley there are

- 4 retail parks Parkway Retail Park, Childers Road, Delta, City East
- 2 shopping centres, Parkway & Castletroy

MrJones2013

Limerick city as a whole has too many of these retail spaces as zulutango eluded to earlier and this has a hugely negative impact on the city centre.

The Parkway Valley site is a major eyesore in its current state though so if they don't go ahead and finish it off something needs to be done with it.

Poxyshamrock

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Limerick city as a whole has too many of these retail spaces as zulutango eluded to earlier and this has a hugely negative impact on the city centre.

The Parkway Valley site is a major eyesore in its current state though so if they don't go ahead and finish it off something needs to be done with it.

Return it to nature would be my suggestion.

MrJones2013

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

Return it to nature would be my suggestion.

Any suggestions? A recreational park might be an idea, something similar to that out in Castletroy?

strettie

Use it to expand UL campus

Vanquished

We should remember that Parkway Valley (as it was originally named) was a product of the boom era and the ludicrous situation whereby Limericks largest suburbs were outside the pathetic city boundary. Limerick County Council enthusiastically embraced all suburban development in order to boost their coffers with development levies instead of concentrating their efforts on promoting and growing the actual county area in a sustainable manner. Had the city boundary appropriately reflected the footprint of the Limerick urban area for the past few decades then f*ck ups like this could have been avoided. Theoretically at least!

Jofspring

Would be great if it was turned into a big park area or something to that effect.

I would imagine the guy that owns it will leave it rot if he doesn't get his way. That or look for extortionate amounts of money from the council to buy it off him.

Tefral

I think they should flatten it and put a mid sized IKEA on the site with the access road being out by the roundabout by Conlans Garage.

I know for certain anyway this cant be built in the time allowed so id say unless he goes for planning again thats the end of it.

Tefral

I think they should flatten it and put a mid sized IKEA on the site with the access road being out by the roundabout by Conlans Garage.

I know for certain anyway this cant be built in the time allowed so id say unless he goes for planning again thats the end of it.

Taco Chips

cronin_j wrote: »

I think they should flatten it and put a mid sized IKEA on the site with the access road being out by the roundabout by Conlans Garage.

I know for certain anyway this cant be built in the time allowed so id say unless he goes for planning again thats the end of it.

Ikea dont do mid sized stores. All their warehouses are standardised large scale operations.

Jofspring

Taco Chips wrote: »

Ikea dont do mid sized stores. All their warehouses are standardised large scale operations.

I'd assume by mid-size he means smaller than the one in Dublin. Looking through the list of stores all over the world most differ in size with some being a lot bigger than others. They aren't all a standard same size.

Egypt, Cairo - 34,500 square metres
Jordan, Amman - 42,000 square metres
South Korea - 59,000 square metres
Israel - 33,000 square metres
Malaysia - 27,000 square metres

Vanquished

Jofspring wrote: »

Would be great if it was turned into a big park area or something to that effect.

There actually are plans for a large amenity park on the groody valley green belt which has the scope to be a fantastic facility for the city. It's in the very early stages though.