New Horizon Mall

Hooked

I live just off the Childers road, and it's been crazy since the Range opened. I know it'll die down but on an average day all routes into and out of the Childers road / Dublin Road are very heavy.

Had that parkway valley gone ahead, where would the traffic have gone? Who on earth gives these things the green light? Dublin and Tipp roads can't cope as it is.

kerryked

Hooked wrote: »

I live just off the Childers road, and it's been crazy since the Range opened. I know it'll die down but on an average day all routes into and out of the Childers road / Dublin Road are very heavy.

Had that parkway valley gone ahead, where would the traffic have gone? Who on earth gives these things the green light? Dublin and Tipp roads can't cope as it is.

People who live in big houses on the Ennis Road, Golf Links Road or even out towards Adare who don't have to deal with that traffic every day..

panda100

kerryked wrote:

People who live in big houses on the Ennis Road, Golf Links Road or even out towards Adare who don't have to deal with that traffic every day..

Adare people actually know a lot about traffic

kerryked

panda100 wrote: »

Adare people actually know a lot about traffic

Ha! I was thinking it as I typed, that's why I said out towards Adare :rolleyes:

zulutango

wigsa100 wrote: »

Horizon Mall would have created 1,000 jobs. That would mean 1,000 more people with money to spend all over Limerick, in the city and outside it. I had a conversation with a developer a couple of years ago who said you couldn't pay him to develop a large scale commercial project in the city. It's too run down and not consumer friendly. He walked through the city centre for the first time in years and couldn't believe how run down the place was.

Fair enough, the land is primed for development, but nobody wants to develop because the city is in a state. Don't get me wrong, I'm about to move into the city centre and like it, but I'm not looking at it through rose tinted glasses. It is what it is and it isn't nice.

Until the Council make the city an attractive place for commercial investment, nothing is going to change. We had a massive commercial project, fully funded and ready to go, which was essentially sabotaged at the cost of a thousand jobs for fear of the 'donut effect'. Did the Council have a back up plan which would replace the 1,000 lost jobs? Of course not! They point to the 2030 plan as if it justifies everything being kicked down the road. They seem to think when we reach the 1st of January 2030 everything will be spectacular all of a sudden.

While we might get one or two small office units in the current situation, it's not going to be anything significant. The less talk of a donut effect we have, the less likely we are to butcher another thousand jobs.

Keep in mind that Limerick has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country.

Some very fair points there. Is the donut effect not real though? And further building on the outskirts will surely exacerbate it. In saying that, the Horizon project is a reasonably short distance from the city centre. If it was built way outside in Castletroy or Annacotty I think the Council's argument would be more valid. With good transport links between Horizon and the city centre, it could possibly have helped the city, rather than hindered it as the Council argued. Realistically, the greatest contributors to the donut effect in Limerick have been UL, the regional hospital, the industrial parks in Raheen and Castletroy and the Crescent Shopping Centre. These have led to significant urban sprawl such that 50% of the population of metropolitan Limerick live in the outer suburbs, and these are, for the most part, the wealthier 50%.

Agree with you about the 2030 plan. The way it's being waved around to justify every move the Council makes suggests to me that very few have actually read it or understand it.

phog

Hooked wrote: »

I live just off the Childers road, and it's been crazy since the Range opened. I know it'll die down but on an average day all routes into and out of the Childers road / Dublin Road are very heavy.

Had that parkway valley gone ahead, where would the traffic have gone? Who on earth gives these things the green light? Dublin and Tipp roads can't cope as it is.

Becasue the arsed up with the ring road the Dublin & Tipp roads still has far too much traffic on it. It's crazy that after the Tipp Road junction that you have come to the N69 before you can exit it or else head towards Dooradoyle and come back in by the soildiers houses.

wigsa100

zulutango wrote: »

Some very fair points there. Is the donut effect not real though? And further building on the outskirts will surely exacerbate it. In saying that, the Horizon project is a reasonably short distance from the city centre. If it was built way outside in Castletroy or Annacotty I think the Council's argument would be more valid. With good transport links between Horizon and the city centre, it could possibly have helped the city, rather than hindered it as the Council argued. Realistically, the greatest contributors to the donut effect in Limerick have been UL, the regional hospital, the industrial parks in Raheen and Castletroy and the Crescent Shopping Centre. These have led to significant urban sprawl such that 50% of the population of metropolitan Limerick live in the outer suburbs, and these are, for the most part, the wealthier 50%.

Agree with you about the 2030 plan. The way it's being waved around to justify every move the Council makes suggests to me that very few have actually read it or understand it.

I'm fully convinced it would have helped rather than hindered. Like you say, it's not like it was miles away out in the sticks, it's about 5 minutes drive to the Parkway from the city centre. Surely a thousand more people with money to spend can only be a good thing.

You make sense about the sprawl of the population, however I think the majority of cities' wealthiest inhabitants live in suburbs. Cork and Dublin have their respective Blackrocks, Galway has Salthill etc. I think that's kind of inevitable. What irritates me is just how little effort has been made to attract people back in over the decades. The Georgian buildings we have are incredible and would be(and are) worth millions in Dublin or Cork.

They were allowed to be broken up en mass into scummy bedsits. As we have seen and discussed in other threads and probably this one, the Living City Initiative has been a complete failure because the place has been allowed to deteriorate so much over time.

I've literally just come from reading Limerick Life while having lunch. They have essentially a PR piece for the Council where they profile three sites that they've purchased in recent times. One of them was the Opera Centre. As I stated before, Sharma offered to develop the Opera Centre into offices as a goodwill gesture to the Council. They essentially told him to **** off.

On the opposite page was an article saying how office space for 750 people is on the way(years away no doubt) because the IDA were giving out that there was nowhere for multinationals to set up in Limerick.

See where I'm going with this?

Mc Love

If I had the money I'd definitely buy one of those Georgian buildings and transform it back into a living space. Having been in one or two, the landlords are to blame.

wigsa100

Mc Love wrote: »

If I had the money I'd definitely buy one of those Georgian buildings and transform it back into a living space. Having been in one or two, the landlords are to blame.

Agree entirely. They should never have been broken up into such small units. There was a lovely building for sale recently down at Catherine Place, four stories over basement. The ground floor was two offices, then the other floors had two bedsits each.

Imagine that, a lovely building smashed into 8 horrible little bedsits(which can't legally be listed anymore afaik) and a couple of offices. It's an architectural travesty. There's another for sale on Mallow St which is still in its original state but looks like it would need a couple of hundred grand at least. It's been up for ages, obviously nobody too keen.

Mc Love

wigsa100 wrote: »

Agree entirely. They should never have been broken up into such small units. There was a lovely building for sale recently down at Catherine Place, four stories over basement. The ground floor was two offices, then the other floors had two bedsits each.

Imagine that, a lovely building smashed into 8 horrible little bedsits(which can't legally be listed anymore afaik) and a couple of offices. It's an architectural travesty. There's another for sale on Mallow St which is still in its original state but looks like it would need a couple of hundred grand at least. It's been up for ages, obviously nobody too keen.

A lot of the buildings in Mallow street need a lot of work and then you are probably living beside some noisy neighbours.

zulutango

Mc Love wrote: »

A lot of the buildings in Mallow street need a lot of work and then you are probably living beside some noisy neighbours.

I'm just around the corner, and it's not particularly bad, but there are a few fairly rough characters all the same.

I don't blame the landlords totally. There's a myriad of other factors at play here. Without apportioning blame, it is the Council which has the most power to turn these places around. Heavy investment in the streets by the Council (not the buildings) to make them attractive spaces would in turn make the buildings attractive to a different kind of tenant and owner, and the renovation of the buildings would then be led by private individuals. This approach isn't rocket science and has proven successful in old cities all over Europe with problems as challenging as Limerick's.

Townie_P

wigsa100 wrote: »

Horizon Mall would have created 1,000 jobs. That would mean 1,000 more people with money to spend all over Limerick, in the city and outside it.

Where are you getting 1000 jobs from? Sharma revised the plans down to 2 anchor tenants and 37 small units. The 37 small units would be small independents or chain stores, at best they'd have about 6 staff members each, some even less (a lot of the smaller units in the Crescent have as little as 3-4 staff). Basing it on 6 each, that's 222 staff. Let's call it 250. Are you saying the two anchor tenants, creche and security would share the remaining 750 staff? Not a hope! Yea it would also have delivered temporary construction jobs, but not including those that 1000 figure is absolute pie in the sky.

wigsa100

Townie_P wrote: »

Where are you getting 1000 jobs from? Sharma revised the plans down to 2 anchor tenants and 37 small units. The 37 small units would be small independents or chain stores, at best they'd have about 6 staff members each, some even less (a lot of the smaller units in the Crescent have as little as 3-4 staff). Basing it on 6 each, that's 222 staff. Let's call it 250. Are you saying the two anchor tenants, creche and security would share the remaining 750 staff? Not a hope! Yea it would also have delivered temporary construction jobs, but not including those that 1000 figure is absolute pie in the sky.

I'm getting 1,000 jobs from every single media report about the project over the last three years. Obviously I don't know anything about how that would be distributed, and I assume you don't either.

wigsa100

Townie_P wrote: »

Where are you getting 1000 jobs from? Sharma revised the plans down to 2 anchor tenants and 37 small units. The 37 small units would be small independents or chain stores, at best they'd have about 6 staff members each, some even less (a lot of the smaller units in the Crescent have as little as 3-4 staff). Basing it on 6 each, that's 222 staff. Let's call it 250. Are you saying the two anchor tenants, creche and security would share the remaining 750 staff? Not a hope! Yea it would also have delivered temporary construction jobs, but not including those that 1000 figure is absolute pie in the sky.

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/community/195291/Celebrations-as-Crescent-Shopping-Centre-hits.html

According to this the Crescent employs about 1,600 people. A figure of 1,000 could easily have been attained at Horizon Mall on that basis.

Vanquished

This shambolic saga is set to rumble on.

Another extension of duration application with another revised proposal for a retail development at the parkway valley site. This is pretty astonishing really. We know the council will not permit further large scale retail projects outside the city centre so this application will be heading for An Bord Pleanala and at least another year of wrangling and acrimony!

Extension of permission 14828 for revised proposals for the completion of the development & amendments include: Reconfiguration of the permitted internal layout & omission of the second floor removed under Ref 09/236 resulting in a decrease of overall gross floor area of the development from 73,142sqm to 63,712sqm; Revised proposals for internal road layout/Parking is reduced from 1,788 to 1,576 spaces and provision is made for a new 8 bay bus parking area. Revised proposals for external elevations/signage. Revised proposals for completion of hard/soft landscaping. All site/development works as previously permitted & all works required to facilitate the completion of the development. The vehicular access proposals comprise a new access from the Dublin Road which is unchanged and an upgrade of the existing access to Parkway Retail Park permitted under Ref 04/585. Accommodation to be provided in revised scheme total 63,712sqm consists: Retailing uses (2no anchor units & 37no retails units) total 29,895sqm; Restaurants/Cafes 2,830sqm; Ancillary Offices 2,159sqm; Creche 345sqm; Leisure/Well-being 3,368sqm; Financial/Professional services uses 1,604sqm; Library 321sqm; circulation/ancillary accommodation 23,190sqm. Revised development for which permission is sought: Services Access Level: Storage/ancillary areas. Lower Ground Floor Level: storage/goods handling, office accommodation, circulation/ancillary areas. There are 961 parking spaces. Carpark Level: storage, library, management suite, circulation/ancillary areas. 576 parking spaces. Ground Level: 2 retail anchor units, 21 retail units, 2 restaurant units, office accommodation, 5 financial/professional service units, mall/circulation areas. Anchor Unit 1 includes supermarket 1,294sqm convenience retail space/off-licence/café. There are 39 staff parking spaces & 8 bus parking spaces. First Level: Upper level of 2 retail anchor units incorporating restaurant in Anchor 1, 16 retail units, 10 restaurant units, foodcourt seating area, office accommodation, crèche, Leisure/Wellbeing, 2 financial/professional service units & mall/circulation areas. Roof Level: Second Level is removed & becomes roof level. Roof profile is revised & reduction in building height by 9 metres. Existing partially constructed development on the site was permitted under Refs 04/3700, 06/3211, 06/4103, 07/1024, 08/645, 09/236

Singland, Dublin road

Townie_P

wigsa100 wrote: »

I'm getting 1,000 jobs from every single media report about the project over the last three years. Obviously I don't know anything about how that would be distributed, and I assume you don't either.

They're just figures picked out of the sky. Sharma initially claimed 1500 retail jobs + 500 construction jobs. Nice figures to claim when you're trying to curry favour with the public, local media, council and planning. Absolutely no chance of those figures being reached in reality.

wigsa100 wrote: »

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/community/195291/Celebrations-as-Crescent-Shopping-Centre-hits.html

According to this the Crescent employs about 1,600 people. A figure of 1,000 could easily have been attained at Horizon Mall on that basis.

1600 working in the Crescent? There are 1500 car parking spaces in the Crescent to serve both customers and staff, yet there are 1600 workers employed there? Michael Noonan and figures, eh? Stop believing everything you read in the Limerick Leader and use your common sense...there is nowhere near 1600 people working in the Crescent. At a very basic level, just count the units and average out the staff. Look at the old part of the centre and how many staff are in the smaller stores. Nonsense figures.

Townie_P

Vanquished wrote: »

This shambolic saga is set to rumble on.

Another extension of duration application with another revised proposal for a retail development at the parkway valley site. This is pretty astonishing really. We know the council will not permit further large scale retail projects outside the city centre so this application will be heading for An Bord Pleanala and at least another year of wrangling and acrimony!

What's most noticeable here is they have downsized the retail/restaurant aspect of it to pretty much the same size as the Crescent. Everything else is then non-retail. Is this their attempt at a mixed use development?

ongarboy

Townie_P wrote: »

They're just figures picked out of the sky. Sharma initially claimed 1500 retail jobs + 500 construction jobs. Nice figures to claim when you're trying to curry favour with the public, local media, council and planning. Absolutely no chance of those figures being reached in reality.


1600 working in the Crescent? There are 1500 car parking spaces in the Crescent to serve both customers and staff, yet there are 1600 workers employed there? Michael Noonan and figures, eh? Stop believing everything you read in the Limerick Leader and use your common sense...there is nowhere near 1600 people working in the Crescent. At a very basic level, just count the units and average out the staff. Look at the old part of the centre and how many staff are in the smaller stores. Nonsense figures.

I imagine a lot of staff are part timers/ weekend workers etc so they'd all be included in that 1600 number the Crescent is quoting. As stores like Tesco are open from 7am to 11pm 7 days a week, that means multiples of workers are required to ensure the same set number of staff are on duty at any one time to cover these opening hours plus pre opening and post closing hours preparation work. Even a small shop like Subway might only have 4 staff working at any one time but they still need about 15 staff to cover all shifts, some of which may only be 10 hours a week depending. Larger stores like Zara, H&M may need 40 staff or more to ensure 12 to 15 staff are on duty at any given time spread across 7 days.

I think your car park analogy is misleading also. Per above, as the 1600 workers would be spread across various hours/shifts/days, there would most likely never be more than half of them onsite at any one time unless they work all shifts 7 days a week (unlikely). Also I imagine many retail workers are on near minimum wages so is costly car ownership high among them? I expect many commute by public transport, bike or foot.

Factor in security, cleaning, facilities, crèche and admin staff, then yes 1600 sounds accurate. Why would the shopping centre benefit from making up inflated employee figures?

Reputable Rog

Leader reporting that the new owners have sought an extension of duration of one year to complete the development.
You really couldn't make this stuff up.

Jose Maria

Sharma trying to curry flavour the public hehe

mart 23

Hi
I see according to the council planning site a decision has been made . It does not state for the moment whether ii has been passed or refused

mart 23

Hi

it now appears according to the comments section it has been refused.

Cookiemunster

mart 23 wrote: »

Hi

it now appears according to the comments section it has been refused.

It was always going to be refused. This will go all the way to the high court again.

Red Silurian

Sharma said 2 years ago on the radio that if he got the go ahead for the smaller complex he would begin construction on it the following week

Well it's been 2 years now and that eyesore hasn't been touched yet...

Cookiemunster

colmtheperson wrote: »

Sharma said 2 years ago on the radio that if he got the go ahead for the smaller complex he would begin construction on it the following week

Well it's been 2 years now and that eyesore hasn't been touched yet...

He didn't get planning permission from the council. He appealed to ABP, but when they eventually gave permission it had a stipulation that the development had to be finished by August 2016. This was appealed to the High Court and when that was done he had 7 months to finish the project, which was impossible so it didn't get built.

Anyways Danske Bank sold the loans out from under him to an investment firm (who put in the latest planning) so Sharma no longer has any involvement.

dave 27

The best thing for that site now is a high end office complex like what we see under construction with northern trust, plenty land and plenty people living out that way too, surely that would be the best idea now for it

pigtown

The site is to be added to the derelict sites register which means the owners must pay higher rates. The council also want to (or have done, I'm not sure) zone the site for residential and commercial.

zulutango

pigtown wrote: »

The site is to be added to the derelict sites register which means the owners must pay higher rates. The council also want to (or have done, I'm not sure) zone the site for residential and commercial.

Am I right in saying it's the first site in Limerick's history to go on the Derelict Sites Register? The Council seem to have removed the register from their website (even though they are required to have it up there).

topcat72

Is demolition of what is there is the only option now, given the length of time the site has been left exposed to the elements?
Maybe Troy studios could use it as a dystopian film set.

Berty

Block it until it gets derelict status and then collect rates on it. Handy that.