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New Horizon Mall
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That's a fair point, but the timing of Coonagh couldn't of been worse, It opened in late 2008 right?
The fact that Limerick has no other M&S will work in its favour.0 -
I think it's a bit too simplistic to use this argument: big retail name makes decision for out of town shopping centre position over city centre position, therefore city centre is loosing business and dies out. Why not think of retail centres on the outskirts of cities/towns and city/town centres as two seperate entities which both attract a different kind of customer or at least are chosen by customers at different times and are thus not in competition with each other? An attractive and viable city centre does not depend on having a large M&S plus one of each of all the other regular retail brands, quite the opposite. An attractive city centre would be one with lots of small independent shops, markets, cafes, restaurants, attractive green spaces, cultural venues and spaces for entertainment etc.
As a consumer I associate brands and retailers like M&S mainly with clothes shopping. However, this is an activity I do not engage in on a daily or even weekly basis. Hence I would not go into town on a regular basis because there is an M&S. However, I would spend much more time in the city centre if I knew there were opportunities to do much more regular shopping for everyday items, such as markets, smaller independent food stores with the added benefit to enjoy the atmosphere and meet up with friends in a nice cafe or browse a good bookshop.
Maybe this sounds too idealistic for some, but with proper planning and people rethinking their consumer behaviour I think there is a space for both, big brand retail parks as well as attractive, vibrant, creative and sustainable city centre spaces, independent from each other, but also complimentary.0 -
Poxyshamrock wrote: »Sure didn't Coonagh Cross SC have Tesco as its anchor? We all know how that ended up!
Jetland has an anchor and pretty much nothing else too!
True, but it would be M&S first entry into the city and therefore that appeal would probably act as a draw in the way a yet another Dunnes or Tesco wouldn't. The latter both have 4 or 5 stores in the city already so nothing new.
It's possibly the right time now that the economy is slowly turning the corner so will probably do well whereas the Jetland relaunch and Coonagh Cross (as well as Castletroy SC) all opened near the end of the Celtic tiger or start of the bust. Also, I would think Horizon Mall is being built along the lines of Crescent as a regional SC, attracting the big international retailers rather than a local/neighbourhood shopping centre which Coonagh, Jetland and Castletroy really only are.0 -
True, but it would be M&S first entry into the city and therefore that appeal would probably act as a draw in the way a yet another Dunnes or Tesco wouldn't. The latter both have 4 or 5 stores in the city already so nothing new.
It's possibly the right time now that the economy is slowly turning the corner so will probably do well whereas the Jetland relaunch and Coonagh Cross (as well as Castletroy SC) all opened near the end of the Celtic tiger or start of the bust. Also, I would think Horizon Mall is being built along the lines of Crescent as a regional SC, attracting the big international retailers rather than a local/neighbourhood shopping centre which Coonagh, Jetland and Castletroy really only are.
The problem with this is Limerick already has a regional shopping center in The Crescent less than 5 miles away. It doesn't need two. If this opens then it won't be long before the Parkway SC, Childers Road and Castletroy SC are gone. There wasn't a need for this when it was first proposed at the height of the boom and there definitely isn't a need for it now.0 -
I've always found it interesting to see how the old Parkway SC at the roundabout and the Childers Road development could exist side by side with both essentially just a big Dunnes. Therefore the proposed Horizon Mall might not have too much of an impact on this either, especially if their anchor tenant is going to be M&S. Dunnes will more than likely maintain its customer base, and with regard to the Castletroy SC I can't see it being majorly effected either. It's not a shopping centre as such anyway, it's SuperValu (with a few smaller units and post office around it) and people loyal to SuperValu will continue to go there, as it's the only one in the area.
I would probably agree that there wasn't a need for this development in the first place all those years ago. But equally I don't expect it will have as negative an impact on Limerick City and/or the wider Limerick area as people think.0 -
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I've always found it interesting to see how the old Parkway SC at the roundabout and the Childers Road development could exist side by side with both essentially just a big Dunnes. Therefore the proposed Horizon Mall might not have too much of an impact on this either, especially if their anchor tenant is going to be M&S.
The decision to maintain the Parkway SC Dunnes was tactical. The plan had been to close that store once Childers Rd opened but once the Parkway began looking for a new anchor Dunnes signed a new lease in order to prevent a competitor from taking the unit. It's more profitable for the two stores to be in competition with each other, but with Dunnes still taking all of the profit than it is to have a competitor near by who will not only split the profit but may very well take a much bigger portion. They can also take measures to try close the lower performing store in the future far more easily than they can shut down a competitor. It's the same strategy they employ throughout the country. M&S opening in an area where they are already running at a lower profit in order to keep out competitors will hurt them very, very badly. Not that I have a huge amount of sympathy for Dunnes.0 -
From Limerick Leader
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/business-news/suburban-limerick-horizon-mall-developer-pleads-for-public-support-1-6172107THE developer behind the proposed Horizon Mall shopping centre has warned that if his €100m plans are not accepted, the Dublin Road site could remain an eyesore for years to come.
In a week when new, reduced scale plans have been lodged for the site, formerly named the Parkway Valley Shopping Centre, Belfast developer Suneil Sharma has also warned that if the proposals are rejected, it is unlikely the big retailers - including Marks and Spencer - he has planned for the area will want to come into the city centre.
“I am showing a level of commitment in my own resources here. But at the end of the day, there is only so much effort and time and money we can put into this. You can’t expect a developer to risk all to get it to a point and then risk it all for the next 20 years. I have already put significant time, effort and money into this project, and I need a return on it,” he told Live95fm this week.
The proposal, Mr Sharma says, will bring 2,000 jobs - a figure he says could actually be an underestimate, given the employment which has taken place at the similar Mahon Point Shopping Centre in Cork.
He wants to reduce the size of the development from 73,142 square metres to 63,712 square metres, with its height knocked down by nine metres to 33m.
One of the two anchor tenants will be Marks and Spencer’s largest store outside of Dublin, taking 100,000 square feet, while there will be 37 smaller units, down from over 90 when the project was first mooted.
There will be two storeys of retail, as opposed to three, and Mr Sharma believes the jobs he will deliver - 500 in construction, and 1,500 in retail - will bring more than €35m in terms of disposable income into the region.
The application is controversial, however, with many saying it could take trade away from the city centre, which has long suffered from the presence of the Crescent Shopping Centre.
However, Mr Sharma says it is time to look at the city centre in a different way
“The city has punched well below its weight in the last few years. That is not a consequence of the donut effect. It is the consequence of no clear vision and no proactive development strategy. It is the classic case of urban under-development, as opposed to the donut effect,” Mr Sharma warned.
A former investor in the stalled Opera Centre site, the developer said that since that project’s inception in the mid-2000s, the way people do business has changed.
“Cities are changing everywhere. My view of a city is that it should not be trying to copy the offer of a shopping mall. We need to recognise there is a massive change in buyer behaviour. It should be about a different experience than shopping centre: it should be about scheduled activities, including meeting friends, specialised boutique outlets, the night-time economy, cultural events, and other one-off entertainments,” Mr Sharma said.
The Parkway Valley was originally granted before strategies were put in place to boost trade in the city centre.
When Mr Sharma sought to extend his 2006 permission for another five years, Limerick County Council sought legal advice before it concluded it had no alternative to grant an extension.
However, since Mr Sharma is looking to make a number of major changes to the application, the council could reject it on the basis that it proves a threat to the city centre.
He says this would be a major own goal.
“It would send out a very negative message in my view about what Limerick wants to do. When is the next time Limerick is going to see a €100m investment in the area? I am willing to work in partnership with all the stakeholders in the city, I am very open about what we want to do. But rest assured, if the people we are proposing don’t come into the Parkway, they won’t be coming into the city,” he said.
On the Opera Centre site - which is now under the control of the local authority and will likely be home to a city centre educational campus - Mr Sharma said he has proposals on a scheme he once had a controlling interest in.
“We do see a future for the Opera site,” he said, “I have proposals which I will bring into the public domain in the coming months. I am happy to bring my expertise and work with partners at community level, political level and council level who want to see this site resurrected. There is great potential there,” he said.
He urged the public and the council to get behind the Parkway Valley, however, saying: “This is probably one of the only new retail developments being planned in the 26 counties, and it is an opportunity for a major piece of economic regeneration plus one hell of a lot of jobs.”
Anyone agree with his argument? I'm kind of torn to be honest.0 -
From Limerick Leader
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/business-news/suburban-limerick-horizon-mall-developer-pleads-for-public-support-1-6172107
Anyone agree with his argument? I'm kind of torn to be honest.
No. He nows realises that in it's current state, it'll be a White Elephant and also realises that the Council will try to stifle him at every end.
I'm willing to take the risk that he leaves it as is. Even in it's proposed reduced size, it would be another nail in the City's coffin. I feel that the City centre hit rock bottom last year and things seem to be slightly busier, but still very fragile and this could finish it for good0 -
From Limerick Leader
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/business/business-news/suburban-limerick-horizon-mall-developer-pleads-for-public-support-1-6172107
Anyone agree with his argument? I'm kind of torn to be honest.
I think Limerick has more than enough out of town shopping centres and retail parks as it is.In fact there's too many of them!I think the powers that be need to work on undoing the damage high rental rates and places like the Crescent have done to the city centre instead of approving of a venture that could cause further damage to the city centre as a place to do business in.0 -
I think that if M&S feel that they will do good business in Limerick they will come here eventually whether this particular centre exists or not. Threatening the city with, 'give me my way or never get an M&S' is pathetic and makes me want this centre even less than I currently do.0
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2000 jobs created there, will be lost elsewhere, mainly the city centre. Saying Limerick city hasn't been affected by the donut affect is a joke. People are always going to go where there is free parking. There is a huge space available already in the city centre by Rutland street and the granary.
There's already way too much space available without creating this huge development. There's already the superquinn/supervalu shopping centre and the parkway and the childers road development. This is serious overkill!0 -
I've always found it interesting to see how the old Parkway SC at the roundabout and the Childers Road development could exist side by side with both essentially just a big Dunnes. Therefore the proposed Horizon Mall might not have too much of an impact on this either, especially if their anchor tenant is going to be M&S.
... equally I don't expect it will have as negative an impact on Limerick City and/or the wider Limerick area as people think.
+1
Too much negativity on this thread...roll on the Horizon Mall, build it they will come. It boggles the mind why anyone would want to travel to the insanely badly designed Childers Road development ... kids with crayons could draw up a better entrance/exit plan ... and yet they flock in droves.
Leave the City Center to become a cultural mecca for food and drink and music and fun - work by day (office type) play by night - but i dont want to do my weekly shop in there.0 -
The not so funny thing is that since the council and others first started complaining about this project some years back, the number of jobs lost in the city centre has continued to grow.
Seems to me that complaining about how a centre that does not even exist is a handy way to avoid discussing how little has been done to increase employment in the city centre and a way to avoid a conversation as to why Limerick city centre is not seen as an attractive location for many large businesses and large retailers.
If Councillors do not want out of city shopping centres, then do something about making the city more attractive for businesses and retailers.
People can complain all they like about a shopping centre that does not yet exist, but the simple fact is that the city has been dying on the watch of many "experts" for a long time, and many of the out of town shopping centres that are supposed to be such a threat are in a bad way themselves.0 -
The not so funny thing is that since the council and others first started complaining about this project some years back, the number of jobs lost in the city centre has continued to grow.
Seems to me that complaining about how a centre that does not even exist is a handy way to avoid discussing how little has been done to increase employment in the city centre and a way to avoid a conversation as to why Limerick city centre is not seen as an attractive location for many large businesses and large retailers.
If Councillors do not want out of city shopping centres, then do something about making the city more attractive for businesses and retailers.
People can complain all they like about a shopping centre that does not yet exist, but the simple fact is that the city has been dying on the watch of many "experts" for a long time, and many of the out of town shopping centres that are supposed to be such a threat are in a bad way themselves.
Where are these large businesses and retailers supposed to go? There were plans for major developments in the city center that would have delivered large retail spaces and plenty of office space, but the recession hit. Without that the opera centre would more than like be open by now and the hanging gardens and other mooted office developments too.
Simple fact is that even at the height of the boom, when the city center was doing well, the city council objected to the parkway valley, the Coonagh SC and the Jetland as they knew that Limerick wasn't big enough for all that retail and it would have a detremental affect on the city.
We're 6 years into the worst recession in decades. The rates are now some of the lowest in the country, but there is little they can do about the level of private rents or the lack of suitable space when there is a lack of available finance from the banks. As you said yourself, even these out of town centers are struggling.0 -
We can all whinge, bitch and complain that the city centre is struggling, does not have an attractive retail offering etc, etc, etc!
But what are the solutions here?! I must say I had sympathy for the former City Council on the rates issue that pertained until quite recently. Commercial rates are a major source of income for local authorities and especially so in a city such as Limerick that was constrained by an outrageously archaic and inadequate boundary. That was in no way reflective of the true scale of the Limerick city urban area! The former Limerick county council was milking the city suburbs dry in order to build an ostentatious, extravagant headquarters in Dooradoyle in a sort of perverted territory marking exercise and then use the rest to fill some potholes around the county!
I really want to see some action on this Limerick 2030 plan. We need to get cracking with the redevelopment of the general Arthurs Quay area. The provision of new retail accommodation, public spaces and the extension of the riverside promenade. I'm sick of banging on about the state of O'Connell Street! It needs to be repaved and renewed as soon as is physically possible. We need to see similar treatment for the likes of Patrick, Rutland, Roches, Shannon, Cecil, Catherine, Mallow Streets. Rid the city centre of useless clutter and for the love of god remove those hideous 1950s electricity poles and run the cables underground just like every city in the developed world started doing 40 years ago! Targeted redevelopment of vacant and derelict sites in the market area also needs to be looked at.
One measure that could be implemented very easily and quickly is increasing the Garda presence and the number of patrols in the city centre. It is shockingly lacking at the minute. They also need to make it their business to target the beggars and junkies who irritate and intimidate shoppers on a daily basis!0 -
Cookiemunster wrote: »The rates are now some of the lowest in the country............
Not yet they're not. The rates for people in the City in 2014 are matching the same rate as Limerick County rates. The rates for 2015 for the entire county & city finally come under the new local authority and many people are going to see their rates rise.
Anyway, a reduction that starts next year for many retailers will take a long time to help as they're been screwed for the last 40 years. I hear 60% of City centre retailers can't pay their rates.0 -
johnmolloy554 wrote: »Not yet they're not. The rates for people in the City in 2014 are matching the same rate as Limerick County rates. The rates for 2015 for the entire county & city finally come under the new local authority and many people are going to see their rates rise.
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City council rates were reduced by 16% in January makeing them the same as the county. How is that not a reduction?
IF the rates across the whole county go up next year how does that make my point about rates currently being some of the lowest in the country incorrect?0 -
Cookiemunster wrote: »City council rates were reduced by 16% in January makeing them the same as the county. How is that not a reduction?
IF the rates across the whole county go up next year how does that make my point about rates currently being some of the lowest in the country incorrect?
I never questioned the fact that the City is not getting a reduction. I just highlighted your earlier statement that "The rates are now some of the lowest in the country....". They're not - they're mid table. http://www.valoff.ie/en/Publications/Annual_Rates_on_Valuations.pdf
The rates for 2015 are being calculated in a different way to previous years. It will now be based on Rateable Valuations i.e. rental values not square footage of a building. Anecdotal evidence from a few friends is that their rates are exactly the same or +/- 10%0 -
johnmolloy554 wrote: »The rates for 2015 for the entire county & city finally come under the new local authority and many people are going to see their rates rise.
.johnmolloy554 wrote: ». Anecdotal evidence from a few friends is that their rates are exactly the same or +/- 10%
Which is it? 2015 rates are rising or they're staying roughly the same? I took the lowest in the country from statements made at the announcement of the reduction. The fact remains though that city rates came down 16% and they'll stay basically the same in 2015.0 -
I find the 'lack of suitable retail space' argument to be false to be honest. At the moment, large units are available at the former Instore place, that new building on Thomas St., the unit beneath the George Hotel, the old Dunnes on O'Connell St., the other one on Sarsfield St., amongst others. And for a long time the new Hook & Ladder unit, the Dealz unit, and all of those modern units on Sarsfield St., were empty.
In other cities if a retailer wants to expand they buy the space next door, like River Island did when Next moved out of Cruises St. I don't understand why they need other people to take the initiative for them in Limerick.
Saying that, I see an opening for a new office in the council with responsibility for attracting new retailers. It need only be one or two people, who have a list of all vacant retail space in the city and suburbs. They then effectively cold call the retailers, giving a presentation about the city, catchment area, economic data etc, and try to match them with the most suitable retail space in the city.0 -
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Vanquished wrote: »One measure that could be implemented very easily and quickly is increasing the Garda presence and the number of patrols in the city centre. It is shockingly lacking at the minute. They also need to make it their business to target the beggars and junkies who irritate and intimidate shoppers on a daily basis!
Can I ask how you plan on increasing these numbers when there hasn't been a single intake of trainee Gardai through Templemore since 2009?
Gardai don't grow on trees, there's a long recruitment and training process involved before one can go on the streets and perform.0 -
Pumpkinseeds wrote: »I've said it before and I'll say it again, I really don't know why people think the presence of M&S will turn things around. I usually have a look in there when I'm in Galway and there isn't anything in there that you wouldn't find anywhere else, except that M&S prices are too high for what they're selling.
Women tend to have a look in all the clothing outlets in a shopping centre and make decisions based on price as much as anything else. So in that respect M&S would be on to a loser. Their sales are down in the Uk and there's hardly a throng of people in the Galway branch whenever I've been in there. I was going to buy a 3 pack of socks for my husband last time I was in but they were looking for 15 quid:eek: I could have bought much the same thing for less than a fiver in Penneys.
Not sure I trust your extremely subjective analysis of the viability of M&S in Ireland. Also, I don't shop in Penney's as I've found that the quality isn't the best. You get what you pay for.0 -
Not illegal to beg in Ireland.Vanquished wrote: »They also need to make it their business to target the beggars and junkies who irritate and intimidate shoppers on a daily basis!0 -
I find the 'lack of suitable retail space' argument to be false to be honest. At the moment, large units are available at the former Instore place, that new building on Thomas St., the unit beneath the George Hotel, the old Dunnes on O'Connell St., the other one on Sarsfield St., amongst others. And for a long time the new Hook & Ladder unit, the Dealz unit, and all of those modern units on Sarsfield St., were empty.
In other cities if a retailer wants to expand they buy the space next door, like River Island did when Next moved out of Cruises St. I don't understand why they need other people to take the initiative for them in Limerick.
Saying that, I see an opening for a new office in the council with responsibility for attracting new retailers. It need only be one or two people, who have a list of all vacant retail space in the city and suburbs. They then effectively cold call the retailers, giving a presentation about the city, catchment area, economic data etc, and try to match them with the most suitable retail space in the city.
That is the kind of thinking that has appeared to seem alien to those in the council for years now. I think that is a really good idea that could pay dividends if it were implemented properly and a little bit of money was thrown at the idea to allow for professional presentations and for accurate data to be compiled.
As a business owner I have met with representatives from the council over the years with regards to potentially bringing projects to Limerick, and when the meetings took place I got to sit down with folks who had no up to date facts or figures to hand, who had obviously not done any prep work in advance, and who gave lots of answers that had the words "it is probably in the ballpark of" in them.
Since then I have opened branches in Cork, Galway, and Liverpool, and by the end of this year I hope to have two more branches opening in Dublin and Birmingham. Mid to late 2015 should see a Kerry branch opening and possibly a smaller branch in one of the Tipperary towns. Limerick city remains very much on the long finger, and at this stage if I do decide to try Limerick again I am most likely going to wait until a suitable unit is available in the Crescent Shopping centre and drop the idea of having a branch on O'Connell street.
In all of those other cities and towns I met with people who knew the facts and figures about the town/city/rates/footfall etc., and who were able to tell me straight away what was or was not feasible with regards to what I wished to do and who were able to offer suggestions with regards to alternative sites etc.
Maybe I was just unlucky each time with regards to who I met in Limerick, but if I go into a meeting and have taken the time to have the correct figures with me, and have taken the time to put together a properly laid out business plan, then the least that should be sitting down with me are folks who can read and evaluate that information, and who are able to discuss the pros and cons in a manner that suggests they know what they are talking about.
As a business owner I don't expect to be pandered to, but I do expect a professional approach and accurate information when I sit down at scheduled meetings.0 -
What's your line of business, Kess?
What would make your business more viable in Tipperary or Kerry than on Limerick's main street? Cheaper rates?0 -
Poxyshamrock wrote: »What's your line of business, Kess?
What would make your business more viable in Tipperary or Kerry than on Limerick's main street? Cheaper rates?
Rates and rent do come into it, but things like footfall and projected spend per square foot etc all play a part as well.
Another big factor, for me at least, is how much work I would actually have to do on a unit ( basically how modern it is in terms of fixtures etc.) and also things like how delivery friendly an area is.
There are of course a lot of other factors that come into play, some seasonal, some not, but all play a part.
Branches in Tipperary and Kerry will be smaller than what I would have opened in Limerick city, but a fairer comparison would be my Galway city and Cork city branches as both of those would be on the same scale to what I originally planned for Limerick and both of those were brought into existence for less outlay that what a Limerick branch would have cost me at the time.
And to further add to the costs side of things, my Dublin branch will have comparable costs to what doing business on a similar scale in Limerick city would, and from my pov there is something wrong when doing business in a much smaller city can incur similar costs to doing business in the capital. Would be like a store in Liverpool costing as much to run/set up as an identical one in London.
I do have a Limerick link to my business at present as I set up the logistics side of my business here as being central between Cork and Galway is a great help, as is proximity to Shannon airport. Plus the road network out of Limerick suits my needs.
As for my line of business, well not to be overly obvious but I am in retail.
I know it sounds like I may have a downer on Limerick, but it is more frustration than anything else because I think Limerick city has a crazy amount of potential, and think it has scope for more growth in terms of % than what Cork and Galway have at present.
What scares me about and for Limerick city is that I see an awful lot now in Limerick that is similar to what was going on back home in Liverpool in the 1980's and 1990's. I see similar decline and similar rising unemployment. Similar jumps in social housing and what not.
But there is no sign of what was done in Liverpool happening over here. For example when Liverpool was announced as getting the European city of culture, and I know Limerick does not have this, there were millions upon millions pumped into building things like Liverpool One (which created thousands upon thousands of jobs), and there was a major push to relocate lots of the public sector and office jobs in Liverpool.
Have said this before in here, but the similarities between Limerick 2014 and Liverpool circa 1984 and 1994 are very eye catching to me, and the similarities between the locals in both cities has always caught my attention as well.
Just think that the authorities in Limerick could do a lot worse than to look at the problems that Liverpool faced, and at the solutions that were looked into and tried. Now I do not or would not expect the same type of financial investment into Limerick as what happened in Liverpool, but I do firmly believe that a lot of what was done there could work in Limerick city.
Things like
A big push to promote inner city living
A big push for public service and office based work in the city centre
A big push to stimulate growth in both the retail and services industries
A massive push to promote and grow cultural attractions
Liverpool is far from being a perfect city, but it is a city that has gone from being a favourite whipping boy in it's own country to being a city that punches it's weight across the board. Limerick has a similar whipping boy status at times here in Ireland, so it would be fantastic to see the city getting to the stage where it could genuinely go punch for punch with comparable(ish) sized cities like of Cork and Galway.0 -
Do you mind me asking what shops you run Kess? Obviously, you're not plugging your own business in any way so I assume it's ok.
Would the demand be there in Limerick for your shop?0 -
Vinz Mesrine wrote: »Do you mind me asking what shops you run Kess? Obviously, you're not plugging your own business in any way so I assume it's ok.
Would the demand be there in Limerick for your shop?
Not going to name my business as I would prefer not to give away my real name etc to anyone on here that does not already have it, but would see no reason why Limerick would be any different to Cork, Galway, Liverpool, and soon Dublin and Birmingham in terms of customer base for me.
My business is not one that caters for such a niche market that it cannot draw enough sustained business in smaller towns/cities, although I am looking into trying something seperate to my retail branches that would be more niche in nature, but will be launching it in a large UK city in order to use the larger population to increase the chances of that niche business succeeding.0 -
stefanovich wrote: »Not illegal to beg in Ireland.
I think you'll find it is actually. Unless you are legally authorised to do so. As in have a permit.0 -
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Vanquished wrote: »I think you'll find it is actually. Unless you are legally authorised to do so. As in have a permit.
It's not illegal to beg in Ireland...
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/high-court-ruling-helps-put-beggars-back-on-our-streets-29210883.html0
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