Gerry Conlon has died

end of the road

old hippy wrote: »

Even the young, poorly educated kids just looking for work & not knowing what they were getting into?

we all know right from wrong, when those vermin murdered those people on bloody sunday they knew exactly what they were doing and why, the fact they were supposibly "kids" is no excuse

old hippy wrote: »

A tad harsh - whether you like them or not.

we'l have to agree to disagree on that

old hippy wrote: »

you know I'm neither an army or IRA supporter.

i know, and i never suggested otherwise

old hippy

end of the road wrote: »

old hippy wrote: »

Even the young, poorly educated kids just looking for work & not knowing what they were getting into?

old hippy wrote: »

we all know right from wrong, when those vermin murdered those people on bloody sunday they knew exactly what they were doing and why, the fact they were supposibly "kids" is no excuse



we'l have to agree to disagree on that



i know, and i never suggested otherwise

There is no excuse for Bloody Sunday. Absolutely. But there were plenty of rank and file ordinary boys (and still are) who joined the army for work - not because they had any expertise on the political situation. I've met some of them and I find mostly they regret serving over there. Then of course, there are those who are consumed by hatred, who can justify atrocities like Bloody Sunday.

pO1Neil

old hippy wrote: »

Even the young, poorly educated kids just looking for work & not knowing what they were getting into? A tad harsh - whether you like them or not. And the word is "murdered", please don't downplay it. Because that's what happened - on both "sides".

I'm not sure what you mean by "genocide", though?

Btw, you know I'm neither an army or IRA supporter.

But the fact the British where suppose to be leaders in the world when it came to justice & fairness & the BA were suppose to be a model force for every other military in the world & the IRA were nothing than mad bombers just blowing stuff up for the hell of it. When in reality an Irish person in 1970's England could not get a fair trial to save their lives. And in reality their was very little difference between a young poorly educated Irish kid during the IRA & a poorly educated young English kid joining the BA. Both were convinced they were doing the right thing only the IRA didn't have a billion pound anti-British propaganda machine like the British who did have a billion pound anti-irish propaganda machine.

Dyr

old hippy wrote: »

Even the young, poorly educated kids just looking for work & not knowing what they were getting into?

The poor craythurs, didn't know they were going to be sent up the north when they signed up

RandomName2

Kristina Acidic Image wrote: »

Robbed of some of the best years of his life by a corrupt British judiciary, police force & establishment, shower of bastards.

May he (finally) Rest in Peace.

That and the IRA who planted the bombs, claimed responsibility, but never seemed to get around to saying that Gerry Conlon and the others wrongfully imprisoned had nothing to do with it. :pac:

Dyr

RandomName2 wrote: »

That and the IRA who planted the bombs, claimed responsibility, but never seemed to get around to saying that Gerry Conlon and the others wrongfully imprisoned had nothing to do with it. :pac:

Do try keep up

old hippy

Bambi wrote: »

The poor craythurs, didn't know they were going to be sent up the north when they signed up

Exactly. There were some, for sure. That and the fact many of them hadn't a clue about the situation up there.

Fratton Fred

pO1Neil wrote: »

The Maguire family case was just absolute bonkers they weren't even convicted of a IRA action, they were convicted of a made up story. Because some black duck tape was found in their house they must have been using it as a bomb factory a 13 year child lost the best years of his life because of the anti-Irish hysteria in 1970's England.

If you were alive in the 70s, then you'd know that there was no anti Irish hysteria, certainly not compared to the anti Muslim hysteria today.

Dyr

old hippy wrote: »

Exactly. There were some, for sure. That and the fact many of them hadn't a clue about the situation up there.

I've known a fair few lads who signed up for the british army when they were younger and none of them played that card, they knew what it entailed.

old hippy

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If you were alive in the 70s, then you'd know that there was no anti Irish hysteria, certainly not compared to the anti Muslim hysteria today.

Not entirely true, Fred. A friend of mine has his flat in Shepherds Bush raided in the early 70s and he was arrested by the police - all on the say so of a curtain twitching neighbour. Incredibly he bore neither the police nor the neighbour any malice (he was entirely innocent) and he stayed here, happily until his death some years back.

When I first came over in the 80s I was the subject of taunts and bigotry and some prejudice, simply because of where I came from.

But yes, the anti-Muslims hysteria is widespread and shockingly so.

old hippy

Bambi wrote: »

I've known a fair few lads who signed up for the british army when they were younger and none of them played that card, they knew what it entailed.

Well, there you go. We move in different circles.

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If you were alive in the 70s, then you'd know that there was no anti Irish hysteria, certainly not compared to the anti Muslim hysteria today.

wrong, it was as bad at least

RandomName2

Bambi wrote: »

Do try keep up

Keep up with what?

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

wrong, it was as bad at least

Rubbish. I knew plenty of Irish lads that came over and they were all pleasantly surprised at the reception they received, considering the actions the patriots were taking.

Sound of Silence

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Rubbish. I knew plenty of Irish lads that came over and they were all pleasantly surprised at the reception they received, considering the actions the patriots were taking.

So people have been just making it up this entire time?

It's not particularly controversial to say that Britain wasn't exactly the most welcoming place for the Irish between the 50's and the 80's.

For the Irish immigrating during that time, I imagine their reception would have been quite comparable to that which many Muslims are feeling today; a sort of coldness and suspicion, which in certain circles would have developed into outright hatred and fear. The Daily Mail, that rag of a paper, even felt fit to capitalise on this fear, arguing that "Irish people [should] be banned from UK sporting events and fined for IRA disruption to public transport". They could even replace the words "Irish" and "IRA" with "Muslim" and "Al-Qaeda" and they could save themselves having to write an article. The Irish were essentially the bogeymen of the late 20th Century for some of the British public.

Hell, Conlon's case is evidence enough of this type of attitude. He found himself scapegoat for a crime he didn't commit because, as far as the British Justice system was concerned, the British people deserved to see the culprits tried and punished immediately. It just so happened that Conlon was Irish in the wrong place at the wrong time - and that was crime enough.

Many people in my Family lived and worked in Britain during this period and said they were quite familiar with the "coldness and suspicion" that some of the public had for the Irish before and during the conflict. Thankfully this sort of attitude has all but disappeared, and Britain is now a very warm and welcoming place for Irish emigrants.

Fratton Fred

Sound of Silence wrote: »

So people have been just making it up this entire time?

It's not particularly controversial to say that Britain wasn't exactly the most welcoming place for the Irish between the 50's and the 80's.

For the Irish immigrating during that time, I imagine their reception would have been quite comparable to that which many Muslims are feeling today; a sort of coldness and suspicion, which in certain circles would have developed into outright hatred and fear. The Daily Mail, that rag of a paper, even felt fit to capitalise on this fear, arguing that "Irish people [should] be banned from UK sporting events and fined for IRA disruption to public transport". They could even replace the words "Irish" and "IRA" with "Muslim" and "Al-Qaeda" and they could save themselves having to write an article. The Irish were essentially the bogeymen of the late 20th Century for some of the British public.

Hell, Conlon's case is evidence enough of this type of attitude. He found himself scapegoat for a crime he didn't commit because, as far as the British Justice system was concerned, the British people deserved to see the culprits tried and punished immediately. It just so happened that Conlon was Irish in the wrong place at the wrong time - and that was crime enough.

Many people in my Family lived and worked in Britain during this period and said they were quite familiar with the "coldness and suspicion" that some of the public had for the Irish before and during the conflict. Thankfully this sort of attitude has all but disappeared, and Britain is now a very warm and welcoming place for Irish emigrants.

Were you even born then?

It was always about the IRA, the IRA were the bogeyman, not the Irish.

I'm sure there were isolated anti Irish incidents, but, unlike republicans who were always demonising "the Brits", the English had no such wide sweeping hatred of " the Irish". There was no widespread anti Irish hysteria, that is over exaggerated by people to justify their own bigotry.

Remembering, if course, most of us English have an Irish granny.

wazky

Fratton Fred wrote: »

I'm sure there were isolated anti Irish incidents, but, unlike republicans who were always demonising "the Brits", the English had no such wide sweeping hatred of " the Irish". There was no widespread anti Irish hysteria, that is over exaggerated by people to justify their own bigotry.

'No blacks, no dogs, no Irish'

Fratton Fred

wazky wrote: »

'No blacks, no dogs, no Irish'

Lol, that old chestnut.

wazky

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Lol, that old chestnut.

Few chestnuts around, with the widespread 'Brits' phobia as portrayed in your post being another....

Fratton Fred

wazky wrote: »

Few chestnuts around, with the widespread 'Brits' phobia as portrayed in your post being another....

MOPE complex alert.

porsche959

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Lol, that old chestnut.

To clarify, is it your belief that the "no blacks, no Irish" signs were a myth?

Fratton Fred

porsche959 wrote: »

To clarify, is it your belief that the "no blacks, no Irish" signs were a myth?

Not a myth, but nowhere near as prevalent as some people like to think.

wazky

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Not a myth, but nowhere near as prevalent as some people like to think.

Less prevalent than 'Brit phobia'?

Fratton Fred

wazky wrote: »

Less prevalent than 'Brit phobia'?

Wtf is "Brit Phobia"?

pO1Neil

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Were you even born then?

It was always about the IRA, the IRA were the bogeyman, not the Irish.

I'm sure there were isolated anti Irish incidents, but, unlike republicans who were always demonising "the Brits", the English had no such wide sweeping hatred of " the Irish". There was no widespread anti Irish hysteria, that is over exaggerated by people to justify their own bigotry.

Remembering, if course, most of us English have an Irish granny.

The Daily Mail in the 1990's called for "Irish people to be banned from UK sporting events and fined for IRA disruption to public transport"

In 2002, English journalist Julie Burchill narrowly escaped prosecution for incitement to racial hatred, following a column in The Guardian where she described Ireland as being synonymous with "child molestation, Nazi-sympathising, and the oppression of women." Burchill had expressed anti-Irish sentiment several times throughout her career, announcing in the London journal Time Out that "I hate the Irish, I think they're appalling".


The press certainly didn't make any difference between the Irish & the IRA and that's not even in the 1970's. But sure go on & keep telling us how high & mighty you English all are.

Sound of Silence

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Were you even born then?

It was always about the IRA, the IRA were the bogeyman, not the Irish.

I'm sure there were isolated anti Irish incidents, but, unlike republicans who were always demonising "the Brits", the English had no such wide sweeping hatred of " the Irish". There was no widespread anti Irish hysteria, that is over exaggerated by people to justify their own bigotry.

Remembering, if course, most of us English have an Irish granny.

I read an article recently in The Guardian discussing Gerry Conlon's trial: http://goo.gl/7OHfl6

One thing I noticed in the comment section was that quite a few of the posters, just like you, disagreed with the author and denied that there was any Anti-Irish sentiment in Britain during the 70's and 80's. Without skipping a beat, they then went on to criticise the Muslim community for many of the same reasons the Irish were criticised, including that they were "radicals" and "potential terrorists". And with that one era of terrorist hysteria replaces another.

You argue that the true enemy was the IRA, and I'm sure that was the case at the time. But the average Joe on the Street hadn't a clue who the IRA were, what the members looked like, or even what they wanted. When the terms of reference are so limited, it was inevitable that "Irish" would inevitably become synonymous with the IRA, just as with Muslims and Al-Qaeda, because there was simply no way for the public to grasp the actual complexities of what was going on. This article printed around 1990 in The Sun kind of plays up to this attitude: (http://goo.gl/cYiXuM). Notice how "Irish Glory...And Shame" is printed below a drawing of the Irish Soccer Team and illustration of an IRA bombing target, as if these two are in any way related.

end of the road

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Lol, that old chestnut.

such signs outside many businesses in the UK back then

end of the road

pO1Neil wrote: »

The Daily Mail in the 1990's called for "Irish people to be banned from UK sporting events and fined for IRA disruption to public transport"

In 2002, English journalist Julie Burchill narrowly escaped prosecution for incitement to racial hatred, following a column in The Guardian where she described Ireland as being synonymous with "child molestation, Nazi-sympathising, and the oppression of women."


The press certainly didn't make any difference between the Irish & the IRA and that's not even in the 1970's. But sure go on & keep telling us how high & mighty you English all are.

if only somebody had the balls to bann that evil vermin rag and its extremist insitement to hatred propaganda

Fratton Fred

end of the road wrote: »

such signs outside many businesses in the UK back then

And you have evidence of these many businesses then?

pO1Neil

end of the road wrote: »

if only somebody had the balls to bann that evil vermin rag and its extremist insitement to hatred propaganda

Unfortunately as long as racist apologists like Fratton Fred are around this type of filth will still flourish.