Dublin Pride 2014

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Cydoniac wrote: »

Absolutely. Too many people here are making connotations from an adult perspective.

The children aren't the ones with the problem, it's their parents. They just use their children as an excuse.

J_E

hotmail.com wrote: »

The children aren't the ones with the problem, it's their parents. They just use their children as an excuse.

There have been a huge number of instances on these threads recently where I have this in my head;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh2sWSVRrmo

Pai Mei

Serious question, if the Pride parade is for LGBT people to be proud for being LGBT, why do some people dress in assless chaps or whatever. If the parade is about pride for being LGBT then why do they make it more about sex and not about the fact of simply being gay?

J_E

Pai Mei wrote: »

Serious question, if the Pride parade is for LGBT people to be proud for being LGBT, why do some people dress in assless chaps or whatever. If the parade is about pride for being LGBT then why do they make it more about sex and not about the fact of simply being gay?

Because in the case of some gay men there, they are celebrating every aspect of who they are. It's as much of an aesthetic statement as it may be a sexual one, and there is a very rich history and sub-culture behind it.

I mean, is this really a huge deal? We see boobs and asses thrown around the media every day without so much as a whimper and people suddenly get upset when they have to see it in real life. It's a carnival of sorts, if that's the worst thing you're going to see in your whole day I don't think you have an awful lot to worry about. (unless it's a flabby ass...)

I think anyone with a bit of common sense knows what Pride does and does not entail, that there will be a group of people who show off a little more body, that it's an established tradition now and going there to be offended is a bit daft.

mgcf81

Pai Mei wrote: »

Serious question, if the Pride parade is for LGBT people to be proud for being LGBT, why do some people dress in assless chaps or whatever. If the parade is about pride for being LGBT then why do they make it more about sex and not about the fact of simply being gay?

I think that it is about people showing the diversity that is involved in the community and I am all for that. But the problem that I have with it is that Joe Bigot from Ballygobackward will focus on that one person who chooses to wear chaps with his ass cheeks on display and try use that as a stick to beat the community with.

Joe Bigot sadly believes that the chaps wearing gay guy will go forth and try to convert good heterosexual folk into gay men and women and thus inhibit the world going forward.

The basic gist of what I am trying to say here is that not alone will there be people who are not liberal about things, there will be people who will focus on what they perceive as negative and they will shout loudly about it.

Personally I think pride should show diversity, because that is something we as a community bring to the table. But I think it needs to show balance too, that even though we might wear chaps for a kick we still do all the same things Joe Bigot from Ballygobackward does.

floggg

mgcf81 wrote: »

I think that it is about people showing the diversity that is involved in the community and I am all for that. But the problem that I have with it is that Joe Bigot from Ballygobackward will focus on that one person who chooses to wear chaps with his ass cheeks on display and try use that as a stick to beat the community with.

Joe Bigot sadly believes that the chaps wearing gay guy will go forth and try to convert good heterosexual folk into gay men and women and thus inhibit the world going forward.

The basic gist of what I am trying to say here is that not alone will there be people who are not liberal about things, there will be people who will focus on what they perceive as negative and they will shout loudly about it.

Personally I think pride should show diversity, because that is something we as a community bring to the table. But I think it needs to show balance too, that even though we might wear chaps for a kick we still do all the same things Joe Bigot from Ballygobackward does.

The thing is Joe Bigot doesn't hate you because your ass is showing.

Joe Bigot hates you just because you are gay, or more simply because you are different.

What you wear at pride won't make much difference to him. His beef isn't the outfits, it's that pride exists at all.

So in that case, you may as well wear what you want. At least that way you'll send a message to him to let him know you won't be cowed by his bigotry and won't let him dictate to you how you should live your life.

mgcf81

floggg wrote: »

The thing is Joe Bigot doesn't hate you because your ass is showing.

Joe Bigot hates you just because you are gay, or more simply because you are different.

What you wear at pride won't make much difference to him. His beef isn't the outfits, it's that pride exists at all.

So in that case, you may as well wear what you want. At least that way you'll send a message to him to let him know you won't be cowed by his bigotry and won't let him dictate to you how you should live your life.

I disagree. Joe Bigot doesn't know what he hates because he is uneducated and small minded. But my point is a simple one, he will use the ass hanging out as a stick to beat us ALL with. If you take away his stick what has he got left? Nada and his argument becomes as hollow as himself. Indeed empty vessels make the most noise!

Just to clarify, no-one wants to see me in assless chaps ... Not a good look

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mgcf81 wrote: »

I disagree. Joe Bigot doesn't know what he hates because he is uneducated and small minded. But my point is a simple one, he will use the ass hanging out as a stick to beat us ALL with. If you take away his stick what has he got left? Nada and his argument becomes as hollow as himself. Indeed empty vessels make the most noise!

Just to clarify, no-one wants to see me in assless chaps ... Not a good look

We shouldn't have to change, it's Joe Bigot that needs to change.

Where are all these naked people at Dublin Pride by the way? I have never seen anything!?

aloyisious

A little bit late to post about this, last day today.... https://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCwQqQIwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Fentertainment%2FThreeTrending%2Fvideo%2Fvarious-voices-lgbt-choir-festival-hits-dublin-30356156.html&ei=WtSeU9DoAuHe7AbRjICwAw&usg=AFQjCNFFcmN_wp6Ly2t2enqvZ5hVVhDIyg[/url

I had the pleasure to see one of the choirs (french, I think) outside the Gaiety Theatre on Sat singing their hearts out to an appreciative audience, incl the Scottish LGBT choir (Loud and Proud).

floggg

mgcf81 wrote: »

I disagree. Joe Bigot doesn't know what he hates because he is uneducated and small minded. But my point is a simple one, he will use the ass hanging out as a stick to beat us ALL with. If you take away his stick what has he got left? Nada and his argument becomes as hollow as himself. Indeed empty vessels make the most noise!

Just to clarify, no-one wants to see me in assless chaps ... Not a good look

You fundamentally misunderstand the nature of your average bigot. The expressed reason for his bigotry is more often than not an empty slogan to hide behind.

If defeating bigotry was simply a matter of exposing the hollow nature of their arguments, we would live in a utopia where bigotry and discrimination don't exist.

Any and all arguments they can put forward are routinely shown up for being empty and baseless - it doesn't stop them being against homosexuality and equal rights. Ultimately they are arguments will come down to the fact the don't like it.

If LGBT people modify their behaviour to placate Joe bigot, the he has won, plain and simple.

He's not going to challenge his own views just because some gay man put on a pair of jeans. The victory will only make him more certain of his supposed righteousness.

The only time he will change his views is when he realises his views are causing him to become the marginalised minority. When it becomes so unacceptable to voice them that he either sits down and does some self analysis or at least knows enough to shut up and keep them to himself.

Pandering to him will never be effective though. No civil rights advances have ever been made by politely asking for acceptance.

mgcf81

I am not suggesting that anyone change. I am suggesting that instead of just showing the differences we should show the similarities.

I do take your point and completely agree with much of what you say I am simply asking that Joe Bigot be shown for every difference there is a similarity and that we as a community have something to offer and therefore expect to be treated with the same courtesy and respect he demands.

Ambersky

The vast vast majority of people walking in Pride look ordinary, if Jo/sephine Public wants to see similarities they will, if they are looking to see differences to validate that belief they will be able to see that too.

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mgcf81 wrote: »

I am not suggesting that anyone change. I am suggesting that instead of just showing the differences we should show the similarities.

I do take your point and completely agree with much of what you say I am simply asking that Joe Bigot be shown for every difference there is a similarity and that we as a community have something to offer and therefore expect to be treated with the same courtesy and respect he demands.

As already said, the vast vast majority wear "normal" clothes and look like everybody else.

Every year there is this weird focus on the very small amount of people that want to wear something different. I think people must be jealous of their confidence, because I can't understand the fascination.

floggg

hotmail.com wrote: »

As already said, the vast vast majority wear "normal" clothes and look like everybody else.

Every year there is this weird focus on the very small amount of people that want to wear something different. I think people must be jealous of their confidence, because I can't understand the fascination.

I doubt it.

I reckon that in the vast majority of cases the criticism is either:

(A) when coming from LGBT people themselves, due to the fact that the more flamboyant or risqué participants in pride serve as an uncomfortable reminder of how they might be seen by many just because they happen to be LGBT; and

(B) when coming from straight people, because those people are a convenient cover for criticism of pride as a whole. It allows them to bring in all the old arguments and criticisms about gay people being inappropriate, over sexualised, perverted, a bad or dangerous influence on kids etc.

And by using the extreme example, it makes their essential argument that gay people should only be tolerated if they conform to their expected standards of behaviour and self censor themselves seem less extreme, bigoted and intolerant.

mgcf81

hotmail.com wrote: »

As already said, the vast vast majority wear "normal" clothes and look like everybody else.

Every year there is this weird focus on the very small amount of people that want to wear something different. I think people must be jealous of their confidence, because I can't understand the fascination.

I am certainly not at all uncomfortable with it, nor am I unprepared to say I do not have the confidence to do it (Or the body for that matter)

My point is simple some fool somewhere will hone in on this rather than the positives. Because it is "out there" it over shadows the average person who happens to be gay. Whilst I am out I don't feel the need to wear my sexuality like a badge because I believe it to be a very small part of us.

The more important part of us is what we contribute to society as a person and I will lay my bottom dollar that the person wearing chaps or a leather jockstrap does not believe that is the best they have to offer the world. It is simply something they enjoy doing and no-one should ever impinge upon that but sadly until we as a community educate Joe Bigot then he will continue to try and control our rights.

Ambersky

but sadly until we as a community educate Joe Bigot then he will continue to try and control our rights

Joe Bigot has been trying to control our rights since forever and spent some time getting away with it too. Things havent changed to the extent that they have because we waited, behaved ourselves and talked nicely, just knowing that one day the bigots would realise that we are just like them.
Conservativism, blending in, having people who are willing and able to engage in rational debate while looking perfectly acceptable and normal, most certainly has its benefits and those people are doing their part, a big part, to bring about change.
The thing is however that we must not forget that we are a diverse group, that everyone plays their part and even the roller blading disco dancing queen has a part to play in opening up peoples perceptions and ability to accept difference.

floggg

Ambersky wrote: »

Joe Bigot has been trying to control our rights since forever and spent some time getting away with it too. Things havent changed to the extent that they have because we waited, behaved ourselves and talked nicely, just knowing that one day the bigots would realise that we are just like them.
Conservativism, blending in, having people who are willing and able to engage in rational debate while looking perfectly acceptable and normal, most certainly has its benefits and those people are doing their part, a big part, to bring about change.
The thing is however that we must not forget that we are a diverse group, that everyone plays their part and even the roller blading disco dancing queen has a part to play in opening up peoples perceptions and ability to accept difference.

It should also be remembered the roller blading dancing queen types (and roller balding drag queens) did far more to advance the cause of LGBT rights than the conservative blend into the background type.

In fact the only reason the conservative LGBT types are getting a seat at the table is because the drag queens fought for their space in the first place.

Ash885

floggg wrote: »

It should also be remembered the roller blading dancing queen types (and roller balding drag queens) did far more to advance the cause of LGBT rights than the conservative blend into the background type.

In fact the only reason the conservative LGBT types are getting a seat at the table is because the drag queens fought for their space in the first place.

A day not to "check myself" as Panti put it

You're on a roll floggg, great views.

eaglach

floggg wrote: »

I reckon that in the vast majority of cases the criticism is either:

(A) when coming from LGBT people themselves, due to the fact that the more flamboyant or risqué participants in pride serve as an uncomfortable reminder of how they might be seen by many just because they happen to be LGBT;

I think you're right on that one.

Annasopra

mgcf81 wrote: »

I am not suggesting that anyone change. I am suggesting that instead of just showing the differences we should show the similarities.

If you think about it thats exactly diversity is - showing both differences and similarities at the same time.

mgcf81

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

If you think about it thats exactly diversity is - showing both differences and similarities at the same time.

Which is the conclusion I came to as I was going through this topic and responding.

So the next question is how do we stop Joe Bigot focusing on that one thing he sees as a negative?

floggg

mgcf81 wrote: »

Which is the conclusion I came to as I was going through this topic and responding.

So the next question is how do we stop Joe Bigot focusing on that one thing he sees as a negative?

Wait until he dies.

At this stage in the debate, Joe Bigot doesn't want to see things from any other perspective.

So we just have to educate his kids better than he was and let him take his views to the grave.

Daith

mgcf81 wrote: »

Which is the conclusion I came to as I was going through this topic and responding.

So the next question is how do we stop Joe Bigot focusing on that one thing he sees as a negative?

http://www.vintag.es/2014/05/women-in-chicago-being-arrested-for.html

Things change. Be yourself (unless you start killing people or something)

Annasopra

mgcf81 wrote: »

Which is the conclusion I came to as I was going through this topic and responding.

So the next question is how do we stop Joe Bigot focusing on that one thing he sees as a negative?

Why is that a question? Why do we allow Joe Bigot to hold power over us and why can't we reclaim that power?

baby and crumble

The thing is with those kinds of people, the lgbt community is never going to win. If we include a diverse range of individuals who express themselves and wear whatever try want we're accused of highlighting differences too much, and if some of us are too similar to everyone else we get told were just playing at fitting in so we can steal children or something.

Rory28

I am torn on this, on the one hand I dont think kids should be looking at men in thongs. on the other I want to look at men in thongs.

Kids be damned, we keep the thongs.

ongarboy

Parades are meant to be colourful, flamboyant, larger than life and about celebrating or exaggerating the fun aspect of your life/interests/culture/scene that you would not necessarily do on a normal day - eg Patrick's Day (who wears head to toe green on any other day of the year??), Mardi Gras in New Orleans, all those Brazilian festivals etc. LGBT is also embracing those aspects and yes perhaps accentuating some aspects (scantily clad eye candy/drag queens/the various sub cultures such as leather, fetish etc) but it's all part of the fun and acceptance. Unless there is really evidence of people going around exposing private parts, I don't see how there is a problem. A flash of ass is not obscene surely (particularly a well toned one!!:)?

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Rory28 wrote: »

I am torn on this, on the one hand I dont think kids should be looking at men in thongs. on the other I want to look at men in thongs.

Kids be damned, we keep the thongs.

Is women in thongs ok? Ridiculous.

aloyisious

hotmail.com wrote: »

Is women in thongs ok? Ridiculous.

That depend's on your taste

Oh, was at the Irish LGBT history talk in DCC Pearse St Public library tonite. A member of the Pride Comittee was there. Some-one raised Merrion Square & mention was made that the square itself would be open for use. I don't know if this is factual so if there's a committee member reading this thread, could you please enlighten me on this point.

tipperaryboy

Apologies for interrupting the flow of debate, how about some sort of pride meetup perhaps? I know everywhere will be very busy so it may be difficult.