796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

shruikan2553

Czarcasm wrote: »

You're not answering the question I'm asking guys, which is -




It's a simple yes or no question -

Do you think, if every trace of religion were wiped from the face of the planet, that people wouldn't still want to find ways to perceive themselves as morally and intellectually superior to everyone else?

I agree that people have always and will always try to see themselves as superior but in this case the church used that. Looking down on these women is one thing but slavery and human trafficking goes far beyond being superior.

drumswan

Czarcasm wrote: »

People have called for the dismantling of the RCC in Ireland because they see religion as the reason why 796 infants were dumped in a hole in the ground, they see religion as the reason why women and children were condemned to these hell holes by a society that shunned them.

My point is that religion made no difference, society carried out these atrocities and society is responsible for these human beings suffering, blaming religion is just an easy and convenient way to ease our collective conscience and say "Well we weren't responsible".

Bull****, the religious orders were responsible. They infiltrated and controlled every facet of Irish life - government, police and judiciary. There was literally nowhere to turn. They were responsible for the fear based control and brainwashing that resulted in a cowed population, akin to those in the eastern bloc under communism.

If its so easy, tell us how as a conscientious objector in 1940s Ireland you would have tackled the organisations carrying out these atrocities?

JupiterKid

These revelations are absolutely shocking and sickening but alas I'm not all that surprised. These bodies in Tuam were the unlucky ones: the ones who didn't get out of the hellhole of religious order "care" alive.

I also fear that there are many more mass burial sites dotted around the country. Tuam is unlikely to be a one off situation.

Reformed Character

Czarcasm wrote: »

People have called for the dismantling of the RCC in Ireland because they see religion as the reason why 796 infants were dumped in a hole in the ground, they see religion as the reason why women and children were condemned to these hell holes by a society that shunned them.

My point is that religion made no difference, society carried out these atrocities and society is responsible for these human beings suffering, blaming religion is just an easy and convenient way to ease our collective conscience and say "Well we weren't responsible".

That's the very essence of the morally superior attitude I'm talking about that's still prevalent in society today as it was back then. Even when society is less religious now, some peoples attitudes haven't changed.

You're careful to purposley neglect to take into account that "society" was dominated by one religion, that the biggest single social, moral, and indeed legal influence was that particular religion, and to oppose it would leave you shunned, a social pariah, as the Fethard on Sea Boycott of the 1950's adequately exemplifies.

Lingua Franca

Society may have been complicit in allowing these institutions to flourish but society didn't rape the children, beat the children, starve the children, cover up their diseases and society sure as hell didn't dump their bodies in a septic tank.

ScumLord

Czarcasm wrote: »

My point is that religion made no difference,

This isn't "religion" in the general sense. This is an organised religious group of people. Religion didn't make the difference, a particular religious group did. They let their ideals and morals be judge, jury and executioner.

The Catholic Church allowed and encouraged this to happen through it's organised propaganda campaign where it indoctrinated an entire nation into thinking it was ok to kill unwanted babies from unmarried mothers.

Dan_Solo

And still no answer to the question: if the church is no better than the society around it, what the **** is it for?

Czarcasm

drumswan wrote: »

Bull****, the religious orders were responsible. They infiltrated and controlled every facet of Irish life - government, police and judiciary. There was literally nowhere to turn. They were responsible for the fear based control and brainwashing that resulted in a cowed population, akin to those in the eastern bloc under communism.

You keep talking, and all I hear are excuses and blame shifting, same as it was 50 years ago - blame young women for the downfall of society, so they must be effectively eradicated from society. You can make all the excuses about brainwashing all you want, but people had minds of their own, and people knew what they were doing when they sent young women to these laundries as young as 11 years of age to break them, to make sure they didn't bring shame on the family.

If its so easy, tell us how as a conscientious objector in 1940s Ireland you would have tackled the organisations carrying out these atrocities?

If I were the adult I am now, I'd have told them go to hell before I'd have let another human being anywhere near them. If that meant losing out on my livelihood or exclusion from my "community", then I'd sooner have been able to live with that, than being complicit in the torture and abuse of another human being.

It stinks of "That was the times", and yet, like I said, they haven't changed a whole lot. The most vulnerable in our society are still looked down upon as if they are less than human and have no place among a so-called civilized, "morally upstanding" society.

SpaceTime

I think you have to remember too that the church (and not just the Catholic one) basically ran society after independence.
The state was extremely weak and compliant and often fully deferred to the church on any matter of 'morality'.

Irish national identity also became confused (very deliberately) with a particular type of conservative Catholicism.

There was basically a quiet power grab in a fledgling state and the church was very much in control of society and engaged in pretty serious social engineering.

Ireland was very much like Franco's Spain just with democratic underpinnings instead of s dictatorship.

So to excuse the church and blame society isn't really very fair or accurate.

omega666

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Society may have been complicit in allowing these institutions to flourish but society didn't rape the children, beat the children, starve the children, cover up their diseases and society sure as hell didn't dump their bodies in a septic tank.

the families forced their daughters to go there, the guards made sure no one ran away, the government funded the homes and the general public turned a blind eye. Make no mistake people knew full well what was going on in these homes and activity helped out. Society has a lot to answer for along with the church.

Nodin

Czarcasm wrote: »

People have called for the dismantling of the RCC in Ireland because they see religion as the reason why 796 infants were dumped in a hole in the ground, they see religion as the reason why women and children were condemned to these hell holes by a society that shunned them.

My point is that religion made no difference, society carried out these atrocities and society is responsible for these human beings suffering, blaming religion is just an easy and convenient way to ease our collective conscience and say "Well we weren't responsible".

That's the very essence of the morally superior attitude I'm talking about that's still prevalent in society today as it was back then. Even when society is less religious now, some peoples attitudes haven't changed.

Now that truly is bollocks.

drumswan

Czarcasm wrote: »

If I were the adult I am now, I'd have told them go to hell before I'd have let another human being anywhere near them. If that meant losing out on my livelihood or exclusion from my "community", then I'd sooner have been able to live with that, than being complicit in the torture and abuse of another human being.

My grandmother was a victim of this brainwashed society. She had 15 children and unsurprisingly lived in abject poverty, because that was what was expected of her by the Catholic dominated society. Then her husband died, and she and her kids became fair game for the local religious orders. When she dared try to protect three of her youngest from rape and abuse at the hands of the clergy, they had the Department of Health kidnap some of her kids and place them in an asylum to be raped and abused further, two of them died.

THAT is what you were up against. Your middle-class Walty Mitty notions of what you would have done is laughable. People like her were steamrolled by the church, they never had a chance. The church could have starved her family, denied the children work, took their council house, kidnapped them, sold them, totally destroyed them. It wasnt just a case of 'oh I'll stay at home on the Internet, screw them'.

Everyone knew not to ever, ever go near this particular order, it was feared and hated by all. But they were completely powerless, just like the jews who were shuffled unto trains around the same times were.

ScumLord

Czarcasm wrote: »

If I were the adult I am now, I'd have told them go to hell before I'd have let another human being anywhere near them. If that meant losing out on my livelihood or exclusion from my "community", then I'd sooner have been able to live with that, than being complicit in the torture and abuse of another human being.

That's very easy to say from the outside looking in, but if you were brought up in that level of oppression you may not be the well rounded, upstanding person you are today.

Abuse like that on a personal level can destroy people, on a national level it must bring in a level of despair.

Lingua Franca

omega666 wrote: »

the families forced their daughters to go there, the guards made sure no one ran away, the government funded the homes and the general public turned a blind eye. Make no mistake people knew full well what was going on in these homes and activity helped out. Society has a lot to answer for along with the church.

You think that local people knew and helped to rape, starve, beat and dump the bodies of children? I think that if people knew the details then that we know now there would have been public outrage. Were people so different back then that they didn't bat an eyelash at atrocities?

Mr.Micro

ScumLord wrote: »

This isn't "religion" in the general sense. This is an organised religious group of people. Religion didn't make the difference, a particular religious group did. They let their ideals and morals be judge, jury and executioner.

The Catholic Church allowed and encouraged this to happen through it's organised propaganda campaign where it indoctrinated an entire nation into thinking it was ok to kill unwanted babies from unmarried mothers.

The State played a big role too. It allowed the church to do as it will, and the clerics had so much power, as if, they were elected. The church or religion should not be part of the way a state is run.

PopePalpatine

steddyeddy wrote: »

Brendan Howlin doesn't want this to be a criminal investigation. 800 babies dumped in a septic tank doesn't sound criminal enough to him.

It's funny, the religious far-right screams blue murder about the "LIBRUL AGENDA" of the Labour Party (of which Howlin's a member) and yet he's unwilling to investigate the RCC's atrocities.

Grayson

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's a simple yes or no.... Sorry, how is this question relevant to "should we enslave mothers and starve babies to death"?
So, once more: if, as you are claiming, religion makes **** all difference to the moral standards of society, what the **** has it been FOR these last 10,000 years?

it doesn't have to have been for anything. Thinking it does/did is a religious belief.
It's a religious belief because religious beliefs are generally accompanied by a metaphysical teleology. That is, that there is a point or an underlying reason for everything. there isn't.
Religion had reinforced whatever were the popular morals at a particular time. The Romans could have orgies. The Christians couldn't (that's for that St. Augustine, you guilt ridden wanker)

people are right when they say that people would still have done good or bad without religion. Society would still have organised along certain lines. Certain things would still have been frowned upon because they were bad for all.
Religion just put it within a superstitious framework and allowed people to justify actions they might never have been able to justify. "Because God wants you to" or "Because if you don't you'll burn" are two very good incentives when you're a superstitious peasant.

drumswan

Howlin hasnt ruled out a criminal investigation. Its up to the Gardai to instigate a criminal investigation, that is, after all, their job.

Dont hold your breath.

SpaceTime

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's funny, the religious far-right screams blue murder about the "LIBRUL AGENDA" of the Labour Party (of which Howlin's a member) and yet he's unwilling to investigate the RCC's atrocities.

Politically speaking, if Labour doesn't do something to ensure this is investigated properly and are not seen to be doing so, they're going to be facing yet more electoral doom and gloom in the coming months and years.

Their constituency is most definitely not the conservative right wing element that FF and FG is in fear of a lot of the time.

Mr.Micro

PopePalpatine wrote: »

It's funny, the religious far-right screams blue murder about the "LIBRUL AGENDA" of the Labour Party (of which Howlin's a member) and yet he's unwilling to investigate the RCC's atrocities.

There will always be those, where the church can do no wrong. Howlin et al do not want to upset these voters.

drumswan

Grayson wrote: »

Religion had reinforced whatever were the popular morals at a particular time.

Nonsense, these religious orders created the popular morals, much like fascism or communism did, to feed their own power base.

These specific religious orders are still practicing in this state and still have "care" for children and vulnerable people. They should be destroyed.

Call Me Jimmy

Czarcasm wrote: »

You can make all the excuses about brainwashing all you want, but people had minds of their own, and people knew what they were doing when they sent young women to these laundries as young as 11 years of age to break them, to make sure they didn't bring shame on the family.





If I were the adult I am now, I'd have told them go to hell before I'd have let another human being anywhere near them.

You don't seem to understand the concept of brainwashing. The bolded bit, why do you think they might have felt it could bring shame on their family?

If you were over in North Korea, you would surely be telling the authorities to go to hell as well?

Fighting Irish

same ol sh1te wrote: »

Because it's an atrocity on par with what the Nazis did in Germany. I'm not a religious man but these children deserve a better burial than being dumped in a sewer, don't you think?

Oh yeer in uproar because they never got a proper burial?
Do the authorities no the religions of all these babies?

Fighting Irish

o1s1n wrote: »

So what timeframe should we put on crimes and atrocities then?

I don't see how anything can be done really, stuff doesn't happen anymore. Does it really matter exactly how this happened?

Fighting Irish

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You do realise there are many Irish people still alive from that time period? When's your cut off for investigating atrocities, and is it the same for adults or those not killed as a direct result of religious society neglect and brutalism?

Don't think that matters really

same ol sh1te

Fighting Irish wrote: »

Oh yeer in uproar because they never got a proper burial?
Do the authorities no the religions of all these babies?

What does that matter, a non religious grave would be a decent thing, better than a sewer, don't you think?

Fighting Irish

Resonator75 wrote: »

Im not calling Fightin a troll but I cant imagine anyone beyond a Nun,Garda or Politician not being outraged buy this atrocity:mad:

It's an awful thing to happen, i agree with that, but an inquiry/garda investigation is just a waste of money at this point

I don't really get outraged at stuff that doesn't directly affect me

Czarcasm

drumswan wrote: »

THAT is what you were up against. Your middle-class Walty Mitty notions of what you would have done is laughable. People like her were steamrolled by the church, they never had a chance. The church could have starved her family, denied the children work, took their council house, kidnapped them, sold them, totally destroyed them. It wasnt just a case of 'oh I'll stay at home on the Internet, screw them'.

Everyone knew not to ever, ever go near this particular order, it was feared and hated by all. But they were completely powerless, just like the jews who were shuffled unto trains around the same times were.

Please don't presume drumswan you're the only person who knows what they're talking about, let alone make the mistake of assuming people on the internet haven't personally experienced abuse and control by people who used religion as a tool to maintain discipline and order. People carried out these atrocities, religion didn't. Religion was just their excuse.

ScumLord wrote: »

That's very easy to say from the outside looking in, but if you were brought up in that level of oppression you may not be the well rounded, upstanding person you are today.

Abuse like that on a personal level can destroy people, on a national level it must bring in a level of despair.

Couldn't have put it better myself SL, wasn't for the lack of trying though -

I was brought up in a home where both my parents were "devout" Roman Catholics, "pillars of the community", etc, real fire and brimstone nutters. I was subjected to horrendous beatings for numerous reasons, eventually they didn't even need a reason (to the point where I questioned was I merely only put on this earth to be a punch bag for these cnuts?). The reason I mention this is because despite my neighbors being fully aware of the situation, nobody ever reported anything to the authorities. Nobody so much as picked up a phone when they saw a naked child running up the road and back down to get the smell of urine off his body after he wet the bed, again. Bear in mind that this was a busy road with cars passing in both directions.

If anyone was complicit in covering up abuse, it was the people that knew about it, and knew it was wrong, yet CHOSE to keep shtum, and I don't buy for a minute this nonsense about "Oh people were controlled by the Catholic Church, they were afraid", all the rest of it. How do they think a child who was being subjected to such physical and mental torture must have felt? One simple answer - they didn't, because they didn't care, because they didn't want to get involved, because they saw it as none of their business, because my parents were held in as high regard as the local priest. They had status, and status means they were untouchable.

same ol sh1te

Fighting Irish wrote: »

It's an awful thing to happen, i agree with that, but an inquiry/garda investigation is just a waste of money at this point

I don't really get outraged at stuff that doesn't directly affect me

So if you don't care why are you trolling a thread with plenty that do, everyone else here is in agreement that they do

comongethappy

Fighting Irish wrote: »

I don't really get outraged at stuff that doesn't directly affect me

Some choice trollage, or an autistic level of empathy.