Czarcasm wrote: » You're not answering the question I'm asking guys, which is - It's a simple yes or no question - Do you think, if every trace of religion were wiped from the face of the planet, that people wouldn't still want to find ways to perceive themselves as morally and intellectually superior to everyone else?
Czarcasm wrote: » People have called for the dismantling of the RCC in Ireland because they see religion as the reason why 796 infants were dumped in a hole in the ground, they see religion as the reason why women and children were condemned to these hell holes by a society that shunned them. My point is that religion made no difference, society carried out these atrocities and society is responsible for these human beings suffering, blaming religion is just an easy and convenient way to ease our collective conscience and say "Well we weren't responsible".
Czarcasm wrote: » People have called for the dismantling of the RCC in Ireland because they see religion as the reason why 796 infants were dumped in a hole in the ground, they see religion as the reason why women and children were condemned to these hell holes by a society that shunned them.My point is that religion made no difference, society carried out these atrocities and society is responsible for these human beings suffering, blaming religion is just an easy and convenient way to ease our collective conscience and say "Well we weren't responsible". That's the very essence of the morally superior attitude I'm talking about that's still prevalent in society today as it was back then. Even when society is less religious now, some peoples attitudes haven't changed.
Czarcasm wrote: » My point is that religion made no difference,
drumswan wrote: » Bull****, the religious orders were responsible. They infiltrated and controlled every facet of Irish life - government, police and judiciary. There was literally nowhere to turn. They were responsible for the fear based control and brainwashing that resulted in a cowed population, akin to those in the eastern bloc under communism.
If its so easy, tell us how as a conscientious objector in 1940s Ireland you would have tackled the organisations carrying out these atrocities?
Lingua Franca wrote: » Society may have been complicit in allowing these institutions to flourish but society didn't rape the children, beat the children, starve the children, cover up their diseases and society sure as hell didn't dump their bodies in a septic tank.
Czarcasm wrote: » If I were the adult I am now, I'd have told them go to hell before I'd have let another human being anywhere near them. If that meant losing out on my livelihood or exclusion from my "community", then I'd sooner have been able to live with that, than being complicit in the torture and abuse of another human being.
omega666 wrote: » the families forced their daughters to go there, the guards made sure no one ran away, the government funded the homes and the general public turned a blind eye. Make no mistake people knew full well what was going on in these homes and activity helped out. Society has a lot to answer for along with the church.
ScumLord wrote: » This isn't "religion" in the general sense. This is an organised religious group of people. Religion didn't make the difference, a particular religious group did. They let their ideals and morals be judge, jury and executioner. The Catholic Church allowed and encouraged this to happen through it's organised propaganda campaign where it indoctrinated an entire nation into thinking it was ok to kill unwanted babies from unmarried mothers.
steddyeddy wrote: » Brendan Howlin doesn't want this to be a criminal investigation. 800 babies dumped in a septic tank doesn't sound criminal enough to him.
Dan_Solo wrote: » It's a simple yes or no.... Sorry, how is this question relevant to "should we enslave mothers and starve babies to death"? So, once more: if, as you are claiming, religion makes **** all difference to the moral standards of society, what the **** has it been FOR these last 10,000 years?
PopePalpatine wrote: » It's funny, the religious far-right screams blue murder about the "LIBRUL AGENDA" of the Labour Party (of which Howlin's a member) and yet he's unwilling to investigate the RCC's atrocities.
Grayson wrote: » Religion had reinforced whatever were the popular morals at a particular time.
Czarcasm wrote: » You can make all the excuses about brainwashing all you want, but people had minds of their own, and people knew what they were doing when they sent young women to these laundries as young as 11 years of age to break them, to make sure they didn't bring shame on the family. If I were the adult I am now, I'd have told them go to hell before I'd have let another human being anywhere near them.
same ol sh1te wrote: » Because it's an atrocity on par with what the Nazis did in Germany. I'm not a religious man but these children deserve a better burial than being dumped in a sewer, don't you think?
o1s1n wrote: » So what timeframe should we put on crimes and atrocities then?
Dan_Solo wrote: » You do realise there are many Irish people still alive from that time period? When's your cut off for investigating atrocities, and is it the same for adults or those not killed as a direct result of religious society neglect and brutalism?
Fighting Irish wrote: » Oh yeer in uproar because they never got a proper burial? Do the authorities no the religions of all these babies?
Resonator75 wrote: » Im not calling Fightin a troll but I cant imagine anyone beyond a Nun,Garda or Politician not being outraged buy this atrocity:mad:
drumswan wrote: » THAT is what you were up against. Your middle-class Walty Mitty notions of what you would have done is laughable. People like her were steamrolled by the church, they never had a chance. The church could have starved her family, denied the children work, took their council house, kidnapped them, sold them, totally destroyed them. It wasnt just a case of 'oh I'll stay at home on the Internet, screw them'. Everyone knew not to ever, ever go near this particular order, it was feared and hated by all. But they were completely powerless, just like the jews who were shuffled unto trains around the same times were.
ScumLord wrote: » That's very easy to say from the outside looking in, but if you were brought up in that level of oppression you may not be the well rounded, upstanding person you are today. Abuse like that on a personal level can destroy people, on a national level it must bring in a level of despair.
I was brought up in a home where both my parents were "devout" Roman Catholics, "pillars of the community", etc, real fire and brimstone nutters. I was subjected to horrendous beatings for numerous reasons, eventually they didn't even need a reason (to the point where I questioned was I merely only put on this earth to be a punch bag for these cnuts?). The reason I mention this is because despite my neighbors being fully aware of the situation, nobody ever reported anything to the authorities. Nobody so much as picked up a phone when they saw a naked child running up the road and back down to get the smell of urine off his body after he wet the bed, again. Bear in mind that this was a busy road with cars passing in both directions. If anyone was complicit in covering up abuse, it was the people that knew about it, and knew it was wrong, yet CHOSE to keep shtum, and I don't buy for a minute this nonsense about "Oh people were controlled by the Catholic Church, they were afraid", all the rest of it. How do they think a child who was being subjected to such physical and mental torture must have felt? One simple answer - they didn't, because they didn't care, because they didn't want to get involved, because they saw it as none of their business, because my parents were held in as high regard as the local priest. They had status, and status means they were untouchable.
Fighting Irish wrote: » It's an awful thing to happen, i agree with that, but an inquiry/garda investigation is just a waste of money at this point I don't really get outraged at stuff that doesn't directly affect me
Fighting Irish wrote: » I don't really get outraged at stuff that doesn't directly affect me
