796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

Dan_Solo

mcmoustache wrote: »

It's like being the supporter of a football club.

No, it isn't.

mcmoustache

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yes Nodin, ALL the statistics. What you're effectively saying is the equivalent of saying that Muslims who commit atrocities are representative of Islam as a whole, and we both know that's not true.

How many do you need? That's a serious question.

At what point do you say, "Hang on now, this organisation is a bit nasty and I'm not sure I can be a part of it"?

Czarcasm

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

When I refer to the 'RCC' I am not even talking about about ordinary Catholic people. From what I can see ordinary Catholic people and the distructive, dispicble, evil heirachy and upper echelons of that church are worlds apart.

But that's what I tried to explain to Dan earlier Kiwi, and then Dan went off on one so I figured there wasn't much point, Dan gets off on being as offensive as possible for a few pissy thanks on an internet forum.

(His inclusion of the Boy Scouts organization was an ironic one given that the RCC in Ireland is deeply ingrained in the Irish Scouts organization)

Ordinary Roman Catholics and the Hierarchy are all part of the one organization, and corruption isn't just rife among the Hierarchy, but there are lay people too who take advantage of their position within the organization to engage in abhorrent behavior. They are all members of the same Church, and when a handful proportionately speaking carry out atrocities like we've seen in Ireland, of course it damages the organization, and all it's members pay for it, even if they weren't the people who carried out these atrocities. All the positive work that the majority of it's members do is rendered meaningless.

I cannot understand why on earth ordinary people follow such an horrendous institution without being able to see the wood from the trees, but I get that indoctrination from birth is extremely powerful.

Some people CAN see the wood for the trees Kiwi, and those people are as SpaceTime says, working within the organization to make it better for all it's members. I'm one of those people, a progressive Roman Catholic that wants to see the Church evolve.

It's a good thing you mentioned the indoctrination from birth actually as it IS quite powerful, but people are individuals with minds of their own and I could never identify with my parents particularly hateful brand of Roman Catholicism, so I chose to reject that, because I personally believe that what they were doing was using religion to perpetuate fear, intimidation and hatred. I prefer to think of religion as a means of giving hope to people. Dan disagrees, but that's his own business. I never seek to impose my faith on anyone. It works for me. It doesn't work for my brothers who are atheist, nor my sister who converted to Islam, but it works for me.

Indoctrination from birth no matter how powerful you think it is, still isn't powerful enough that a person can't tell the difference between right and wrong, and the way Irish society failed the most vulnerable members of society is wrong, and they knew it was wrong, but it's easier to say they were brainwashed by religion as that absolves them of any responsibility.

rotun

Resonator75 wrote: »

I curse my naivety.

I curse myself for being the little consumer sheep I am. I'll get up tomorrow, go to work, pay my taxes, and do nothing about this.

This tragedy that has broken my heart.

Dan_Solo

mcmoustache wrote: »

How many do you need? That's a serious question.

At what point do you say, "Hang on now, this organisation is a bit nasty and I'm not sure I can be a part of it"?

Basically Czarcasm has absolved every organisation from the Khmer Rouge to the KKK, because they weren't all bad apples.

Adamantium

The church never offers up this information voluntarily, the scandals are always broke by something else and NOT THEMSELVES. And that is why they will never have moral courage/authority, but because if they did we would all instinctively know it, and wouldn't have reminded of it

They should donate land and put 796+ how many hundreds if not housands) more gravestones so people will not forget this, like a simple single memorial.



I mean we only have HUMAN experimentation, baby selling and starvation, along with their hands in every facet of Irish life for decades, it's identical to the Nazi regime, and much like the Nazi's the german popuation were as much complicit in it as we were.

Imagine if this existed in Ireland:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=WW2+MEMORIAL+FRANCE&es_sm=122&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=-vSQU6H3NuSm4gSCz4HoCg&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1024&bih=661#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=D6_It2ja435NvM%253A%3BaY1C7f_U8Fkl7M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.luc.edu%252Ffaculty%252Fafrantz%252Ffrance%252Ftarget02.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.luc.edu%252Ffaculty%252Fafrantz%252Ffrance%252Ffrance.htm%3B900%3B561

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

But that's what I tried to explain to Dan earlier Kiwi, and then Dan went off on one so I figured there wasn't much point, Dan gets off on being as offensive as possible for a few pissy thanks on an internet forum.

Czar, I think most people here are finding your disgusting defense of the Catholic church's official support for pedophiles and baby killers far more offensive than anything I've said.
Oh, so sorry you're not feeling the Thanks love. Poor diddums.

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

Indoctrination from birth no matter how powerful you think it is, still isn't powerful enough that a person can't tell the difference between right and wrong, and the way Irish society failed the most vulnerable members of society is wrong, and they knew it was wrong, but it's easier to say they were brainwashed by religion as that absolves them of any responsibility.

If brainwashing isn't all that big in faith, why do children of Christians nearly always grow up to be Christians? Same for Jews, Muslims, every other religion? Shouldn't they be all randomly mixed up from one generation to the next?
Another puke inducing attempt at blaming "society" for the RCC's sins.

mcmoustache

Dan_Solo wrote: »

No, it isn't.

As someone who isn't a football club supporter, I disagree. But that's a discussion for another thread.

The point I was trying to make is that when people self-identify with an organisation, they will perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to ensure that they can perceive the organisation as good and detractors as bad.

segaBOY

wildefalcon wrote: »

I fear that this story may be repeated in many other towns and cities in Ireland over the next few years.

Are you one of these fortune tellers with a crystal ball?

Adamantium

mcmoustache wrote: »

mental gymnastics

This. The hardest thing to face is ourselves and our own bull****, always.

Micky Dolenz

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Czar, I think most people here are finding your disgusting defense of the Catholic church's official support for pedophiles and baby killers far more offensive than anything I've said.
Oh, so sorry you're not feeling the Thanks love. Poor diddums.

Mod

"Poor diddums" seriously?

Quit the bickering please. It's not good to read.

Dan_Solo

mcmoustache wrote: »

As someone who isn't a football club supporter, I disagree. But that's a discussion for another thread.

The point I was trying to make is that when people self-identify with an organisation, they will perform all sorts of mental gymnastics to ensure that they can perceive the organisation as good and detractors as bad.

I've no idea how that is relevant to my side of this argument, unless you are, just like Czarcasm, claiming disgust at pedophilia and baby starving is a matter of perception?
Why, how do you perceive these thing?

rotun

Anyone interested in how far the Irish populous has evolved since the dark days, try ringing around to see where flowers are being laid in tuam I'm remembrance of the 800 children.

comongethappy

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Another puke inducing attempt at blaming "society" for the RCC's sins.

Indeed.

As a non-catholic I resent the actions of the Roman Paedophile Church being construed as the actions of our society as a whole.

A cadre of aging sexless frock-wearers does not a society make.

mcmoustache

Dan_Solo wrote: »

If brainwashing isn't all that big in faith, why do children of Christians nearly always grow up to be Christians? Same for Jews, Muslims, every other religion? Shouldn't they be all randomly mixed up from one generation to the next?

If indoctrination had no effect, this is exactly what you would expect.

frogloch

The blindfolds are finally coming off, it puts the fethard case into perspective where a protestant woman married a catholic man and she was forced to christen her children catholic. Then when the children were due to go to school she enrolled them in the local protestant school. The parish priest was trying to force her to put them in his school. She went on the run and could only feel safe in Belfast. The priest and bishop called for a boycott on the local protestant population and everyone obeyed. Even the state were involved in trying to get her and the children back.

Czarcasm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Czar, I think most people here are finding your disgusting defense of the Catholic church's official support for pedophiles and baby killers far more offensive than anything I've said.
Oh, so sorry you're not feeling the Thanks love. Poor diddums.

Dan the only person that seems to be reading my posts that way is you, and you and I would've had enough tete-a-tetes at this point to know that you're only posting clichéd cheap-shots at this point and couldn't care less about the people involved, you just use any means at your disposal to soap box and perpetuate your hatred for religion.

You genuinely, genuinely think I would support or defend baby killers? I don't think you do, but it makes for an easy taking a person down at the ankles when you're looking to browbeat them into submission. Your insults are meaningless and petty to put it bluntly, as I've been subjected to far worse offline. The only reason I said I wouldn't further engage with you is because offline at least, I don't have to be civil to people who perpetuate divisions based on intolerance, ignorance and hatred. Those traits aren't unique to the RCC, they can apply equally to any human being.

Shakespeare's Sister

It's such a complex situation. Ireland was very protective of its catholicism due to British rule. When it got its independence, it embraced catholicism with all its might, including the draconian stuff. It formed part of our national identity. This empowered the church I guess, so it was a two-way street, but it was the church that was drip-feeding all of these awful beliefs down. The church was already a powerful entity for centuries - it hardly needed to be started from scratch in Ireland when it already had a lot of clout.

Seems crude but I think people were blinded by the mixed messages of "God is love" and "God will punish you and you'll go to hell". "Brainwashing" is a disputed term, but I think people truly believed it was for the greater good. People were less educated and less likely to question things. Of those born into it, this is all they knew.

When the church was ingrained physically and psychologically and assisted by arms of the state (and indeed, ordinary people) it really was a staggeringly powerful beast. And could pretty much do as it wished. So the conditions were ideal for the horrors that took place in its institutions. Yes, people were complicit by sending their children to them (and I find it utterly grotesque to see suggestions that this is where the blame should be directed, rather than the abusers themselves :mad:) - when this applied. Some people had no say. I spoke to a survivor of child abuse who was taken from his home against his parents' wishes. But they were too poor and powerless to stop this act of state. Paddy Doyle, who wrote The God Squad (harrowing harrowing stuff) was an orphan; no family sent him to the hell-hole in Cappoquin.
I don't think everyone knew what was going on - it's easy to say "They all knew" but we weren't there. I have no doubt people convinced themselves too there was nothing bad going on - because this flew in the face of what they had been taught: that the church was kindness and forgiving and charity; that these children were so poor they would have had it worse if they weren't placed in an institution where they had a bed and board. I saw remnants of that in the 80s and 90s - people truly believing these were good places run by good people. Priests and nuns - servants of god.
And there are the stories of people who knew and tried to do whatever little things they could, but... how much could they have done? What ammunition did individuals have? I guess maybe everyone should have got together in as many numbers as possible to oust things, but how feasible was this? People did start to criticise the church publicly from the 1960s on and the tide has been gradually turning ever since, but it has been a slow process. It couldn't have happened overnight.

It doesn't seem right in my opinion to shift the responsibility to those on the outside, who did not abuse, torture, rape and torment these children. People are mostly good - and were then as they are now. Today, we cannot appreciate how powerful this organisation was. It's very easy for people in 2014 with all of its trappings of education and information to say "Well I'd have done better" - how would they be any different to all the others back then?

mcmoustache

Dan_Solo wrote: »

I've no idea how that is relevant to my side of this argument, unless you are, just like Czarcasm, claiming disgust at pedophilia and baby starving is a matter of perception?
Why, how do you perceive these thing?

I see it as fairly typical stuff from the Catholic church. In my personal opinion, they should have their assets seized, put in escrow and used to pay compensation. I'm disgusted that so many people still see fit to defend the church.

That's where I stand. I thought it was clear to all. But then I mentioned football...

comongethappy

Czarcasm wrote: »

Dan the only person that seems to be reading my posts that way is you, and you and I would've had enough tete-a-tetes at this point to know that you're only posting clichéd cheap-shots at this point and couldn't care less about the people involved, you just use any means at your disposal to soap box and perpetuate your hatred for religion.

You genuinely, genuinely think I would support or defend baby killers? I don't think you do, but it makes for an easy taking a person down at the ankles when you're looking to browbeat them into submission. Your insults are meaningless and petty to put it bluntly, as I've been subjected to far worse offline. The only reason I said I wouldn't further engage with you is because offline at least, I don't have to be civil to people who perpetuate divisions based on intolerance, ignorance and hatred. Those traits aren't unique to the RCC, they can apply equally to any human being.

Your many posts in this thread read as one big thumbs-up for the RCC & their sins against the Irish people.

Dan isn't the only one reading you that way.

There is always one of course, defending the indefensible.
Still sickening all the same.

comongethappy

mcmoustache wrote: »

I see it as fairly typical stuff from the Catholic church. In my personal opinion, they should have their assets seized, put in escrow and used to pay compensation. I'm disgusted that so many people still see fit to defend the church...

That should have been done a long time ago.

However, the government still fear the power they wield over education.

playedalive

comongethappy wrote: »

That should have been done a long time ago.

However, the government still fear the power they would over education.

I really think Ireland needs to separate religion and state, like they do in France. The Catholic Church has had so much power and has abused it. Past events like this one and child sexual abuse. The reality is that the government has, is and will be somewhat biased towards the church and the essence of what happened won't be truly told if there is a link between religion and state. I mean the fact these deaths were already recorded just shows the bias towards the church. Enough is enough.

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

You genuinely, genuinely think I would support or defend baby killers? I don't think you do

I don't think you even know you're doing it you have been so well trained by your fantasists beardyghost disciple masters.

Czarcasm wrote: »

offline at least, I don't have to be civil to people

You're doing pretty good here too, with your "pissy thanks" jibe at anybody with the temerity to agree with me.

Resonator75

Id wager the defenders of this shyte have never suffered a hard day in their lives because of the system.


I mean Czarcasm, come on man???

segaBOY

No matter what happens a whole load of folks hanging around boards chatting about it won't do anything. Pitchforks at the ready or GTFO.

comongethappy

Resonator75 wrote: »

Id wager the defenders of this shyte have never suffered a hard day in their lives because of the system.


I mean Czarcasm, come on man???

He/she seems exceedingly dedicated to defending them.

It takes considerable zeal.

shruikan2553

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's not quite that simple a comparison.

A church doesn't sell a product or service. It's a community of people. While I would agree with you that the Catholic Church as it is structured at present does not really allow those people to have an awful lot of say in how it runs its affairs, they are still members of a community rather than purchasers of a product.

As members of a community, they could decide to lobby, to pressure, to withdraw their support etc to force change. However, that's not what they did and it's still not really being done today to any great extent from what I am observing anyway.

Also, unlike a company selling a product or service, a religion is actually a set of philosophies and rules by which its adherents live their lives (well they may not take them all on board, but in theory that's what they do). If you buy Microsoft Windows, you're just buying an operating system for your computer. That's all it is. You don't subscribe to some set of philosophies and rules that form a way of life nor do you in any way represent the company or anything like that. Your relationship is just buying a product/service.

So, really you can't quite compare the situations.

I do think though that Irish Catholics in the past were definitely cowed by the Church more than they were members of it though. It was a very top-down authoritarian type of an organisation which ruled its flock by fear in those days.

True, I was mostly just trying to show the structure although you did remind me of the xbox one announcement. There was a lot of stuff people didnt like so they complained. Microsoft saw this threat to making profit and changed their policies to what people wanted, one person in the company said to everyone they should just "deal with it" on twitter. He was soon looking for a new job. So the point of this story is yes, people could have changed how the church was run and the church should have dealt with those nuns, priests and bishops who committed acts that went against the church but neither did. Although going against the church had more severe consequences than going against Microsoft so there was no fear about it. Why didnt any of the good priests, nuns or bishops go against it? A single bishops voice would have held more sway than an entire community. These people would have known a lot more and were the majority according to many people.

Morag

http://gamacavei.wordpress.com/2013/08/28/report-into-the-history-of-adoption-in-ireland-since-1922-by-adoption-rights-now/

That is a wonderful summation of the times and the laws and how the systems were set up and the mortality rates in the mother and child homes across the country.

No wonder they didn't want contraception to be legal.

SpaceTime

Magaggie wrote: »

It's such a complex situation. Ireland was very protective of its catholicism due to British rule. When it got its independence, it embraced catholicism with all its might, including the draconian stuff. It formed part of our national identity. This empowered the church I guess, so it was a two-way street, but it was the church that was drip-feeding all of these awful beliefs down. The church was already a powerful entity for centuries - it hardly needed to be started from scratch in Ireland when it already had a lot of clout.

Seems crude but I think people were blinded by the mixed messages of "God is love" and "God will punish you and you'll go to hell". "Brainwashing" is a disputed term, but I think people truly believed it was for the greater good. People were less educated and less likely to question things. Of those born into it, this is all they knew.

When the church was ingrained physically and psychologically and assisted by arms of the state (and indeed, ordinary people) it really was a staggeringly powerful beast. And could pretty much do as it wished. So the conditions were ideal for the horrors that took place in its institutions. Yes, people were complicit by sending their children to them (and I find it utterly grotesque to see suggestions that this is where the blame should be directed, rather than the abusers themselves :mad:) - when this applied. Some people had no say. I spoke to a survivor of child abuse who was taken from his home against his parents' wishes. But they were too poor and powerless to stop this act of state. Paddy Doyle, who wrote The God Squad (harrowing harrowing stuff) was an orphan; no family sent him to the hell-hole in Cappoquin.
I don't think everyone knew what was going on - it's easy to say "They all knew" but we weren't there. I have no doubt people convinced themselves too there was nothing bad going on - because this flew in the face of what they had been taught: that the church was kindness and forgiving and charity; that these children were so poor they would have had it worse if they weren't placed in an institution where they had a bed and board. I saw remnants of that in the 80s and 90s - people truly believing these were good places run by good people. Priests and nuns - servants of god.
And there are the stories of people who knew and tried to do whatever little things they could, but... how much could they have done? What ammunition did individuals have? I guess maybe everyone should have got together in as many numbers as possible to oust things, but how feasible was this? People did start to criticise the church publicly from the 1960s on and the tide has been gradually turning ever since, but it has been a slow process. It couldn't have happened overnight.

It doesn't seem right in my opinion to shift the responsibility to those on the outside, who did not abuse, torture, rape and torment these children. People are mostly good - and were then as they are now. Today, we cannot appreciate how powerful this organisation was. It's very easy for people in 2014 with all of its trappings of education and information to say "Well I'd have done better" - how would they be any different to all the others back then?

I'd also add that these days we live in a country that has a very vibrant, inquisitive and free press and broadcast media (ranked well above the UK, France and the USA) and we have the internet.

Information gets around fast and things are hard to cover up.

Go back to the 1950s and you'd very conservative local papers, a pretty conservative national press and no television at all until 1961 and then it was highly conservative and state-controlled in its early days and Radio Eireann was largely light entertainment programming.

There was no internet, and the phones didn't even work particularly well and were beyond the reach (price wise) of most households. There was no local radio either.

So, you'd very little information about what was going on.

Many people didn't have cars and didn't necessarily even see what was going on in these places.

So, it's a little difficult to say that the whole country was complicit. A % that knew were, but the majority didn't really know the details from what I've heard/seen. They certainly didn't have enough information to put the whole jigsaw together anyway and it was almost impossible to criticise the church in particular (it was easier to criticise the state oddly enough).