796 children buried in Septic Tank in Galway - ### Mod Warning in 1st Post

BigBrownBear

My name is URL wrote: »

The protestants were at the same thing themselves

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethany_Home

And it's not something that was exclusive to Ireland

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_adoption_in_the_United_Kingdom#Affected_families

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_adoption_in_Australia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Scoop_Era

There's a pretty big difference between forced adoption and dead babies being ****ed into a pit
*****

shruikan2553

Czarcasm wrote: »

The Catholic Church were just fulfilling a need in a society where everyone already competed to be morally superior to each other. Even nowadays you don't have to look too hard to find people who engage in the very same behavior, and they may have nothing whatsoever to do with the RCC, it's human nature.

If you were to wipe out the RCC out of Ireland in the morning, actually scratch that, let's go further - wipe every trace of religion off the face of the planet...

You still think individuals wouldn't want to find ways in which they could feel morally and intellectually superior to everyone else?

They didn't have to go along with it though. The church has no problems telling us about abortion and same sex marriage now and before about divorce and contraception. Why didn't they tell us how to treat these people and treat them far worse themselves?

Dan_Solo

My name is URL wrote: »

The protestants were at the same thing themselves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bethany_Home
And it's not something that was exclusive to Ireland
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_adoption_in_the_United_Kingdom#Affected_families
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forced_adoption_in_Australia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baby_Scoop_Era

But what about the whataboutery?

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

The Catholic Church were just fulfilling a need in a society where everyone already competed to be morally superior to each other. Even nowadays you don't have to look too hard to find people who engage in the very same behavior, and they may have nothing whatsoever to do with the RCC, it's human nature.

As I paraphrased Stephen Fry before, if the Catholic church only reflects the prevailing societal moral attitude of the times, then what the **** is it actually for?

I Heart Internet

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As I paraphrased Stephen Fry before, if the Catholic church only reflects the prevailing societal moral attitude of the times, then what the **** is it actually for?

True dat.

The church should be a place for the radical love of JC, not toeing the societal line of the day.

WilyCoyote

Czarcasm wrote: »

You honestly think people didn't know? There was outcry from people at the thought of having young single mothers amongst them. That was the whole point of these hell holes -

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/The-Home-babies-in-the-news-A-timeline-of-neglect-in-plain-sight.html

Yes, I realise that rational thinking is not the forte of brainwashed minds. But, as I said to Scumlord, if this was common knowledge then, the foreign papers (not the home grown ones) would have taken up the story and forced the issue.

The church really made the married womenfolk of Ireland very insecure by portraying unmarried mothers as Jezebels that would seduce their (oft frustrated husbands) - given the chance.

For a shower of so called celibates, the catholic church had quite a knowledge of psychosexual behaviour and how to promote insecurities related to this. If you read the mush that was instilled in the heads of Legion Of Mary acolytes and other voluntary female groups re. sex, the exploitative nature of men's sexual desire, the guilt that should accompany the afterglow of orgasm, the guilt of being pregnant (hiding the pregnancy with large dowdy clothing and staying indoors more and more as the bump grew) and the sinful nature of any sexual behaviour that didn't end in vaginal penetrative sex ........ you'll see the picture of a downtrodden population - who found more pleasure in alcohol than between the sheets or up against a cock of hay.

Resonator75

I dont get it, neither RTE, Newstalk or Mat cooper are leading with this story????

I think this story is just a little bigger than who was born on this day in 1865, James Reilly's future or that woman who murdered her husband.

what gives with the media in this country?

WilyCoyote

My name is URL wrote: »

The protestants were at the same thing themselves

But why should that stop them having a victory over the church of Rome!

My name is URL

BigBrownBear wrote: »

There's a pretty big difference between forced adoption and dead babies being ****ed into a pit
*****

Did I say otherwise? My post was a reply to someone claiming that the Americans and protestants would be horrified by what the Irish Catholics were at at the time.

There is nothing to suggest that's the case.

And the cases I linked to involved a lot more than just 'forced adoption'. In many cases women were forced into unpaid labour. They were beated, abused and raped, and many infant fatalities occurred.

There have been mass graves found in New York where women's 'asylums' once existed. There were women and child homes operated by groups with no affiliation to any church or religion too.

http://gizmodo.com/what-we-found-at-hart-island-the-largest-mass-grave-in-1460171716

Dan_Solo wrote: »

But what about the whataboutery?

That's just a lazy retort. My post isn't any sort of whataboutery.. it's factual. I'm not trying to defend what happened or make it seem any less horrific. If people want to remain ignorant and assume that only Irish Catholics are/were capable of such atrocities then by all means, go right ahead.

To assume that protestants (by virtue of the fact that they simply weren't catholic) would be horrified by the idea of a mass grave attached to a children's home, is just idiotic.

steddyeddy

Brendan Howlin doesn't want this to be a criminal investigation. 800 babies dumped in a septic tank doesn't sound criminal enough to him.

Spring Onion

SpaceTime wrote: »

I remember taking to an old Christian Brother in a school here when I was about 12. He was a friendly and decent sort. What shocked me (even at age 12) was when he was talking about his childhood.

I'd asked him how he became a teacher. It was like one minute he was playing football with his mates in Galway and at AGE 13 he was sent off to join 'the brothers'.

The guy actually said that he really regretted never being able to have a family or even proper friends! He was going on about how he'd have loved a house in Connemara and go have been a grandad. And he was saying all this to a bunch of lads in 1st year in school. I don't think at the time I took in quite what a profoundly sad state of affairs he was describing.

I went to a CBS primary and secondary in the 1980s.

Two brothers were abusing children during that time. It was well known. They always targeted the boys that were vulnerable or had "weak" parents. One got jail but the other died before they got a chance.
Two other brothers left the brotherhood and both got married subsequently.

What struck me is that there was absolute war over the 2 brothers that left. They were the talk of the town and we were all warned by our psycho principal never ever to mention their names. He was in a foul humour for months after they left. At the same time, nobody really discussed the 2 brothers that were accused and convicted of abuse. Strange days.

Spring Onion

steddyeddy wrote: »

Brendan Howlin doesn't want this to be a criminal investigation. 800 babies dumped in a septic tank doesn't sound criminal enough to him.

To be frank, Howlin is an asshole. Nothing new there.

WilyCoyote

ScumLord wrote: »

It's very easy for us to see it's nonsense with hindsight and the benefit of scientific explanations. All our science seems obvious now but it wasn't never obvious. You could only believe what you were told and when you could be ostracized from your small community for not accepting the dogma you're just not going to risk everything when you know everyone will turn on you.

There was no alternative explanations other than what the church told you.

Yes, but empathy is a very human emotion. Should that not have kicked in before a "foreign" belief (ie, that these girls and their children were the devil's spawn).
Faux empathy, which was given through a practiced smile is what these people practiced.

Narcissism and sociopathy seem to have been the main tenets of their personalities.

I feel sorry for the good priests/nuns/brothers that have been maligned by all these atrocities.

Dan_Solo

My name is URL wrote: »

That's just a lazy retort. My post isn't any sort of whataboutery.. it's factual. I'm not trying to defend what happened or make it seem any less horrific. If people want to remain ignorant and assume that only Irish Catholics are/were capable of such atrocities then by all means, go right ahead.

Which is pretty much whataboutery defined. Nice.

wildefalcon

My name is URL wrote: »

Did I say otherwise? My post was a reply to someone claiming that the Americans and protestants would be horrified by what the Irish Catholics were at at the time.

There is nothing to suggest that's the case.

And the cases I linked to involved a lot more than just 'forced adoption'. In many cases women were forced into unpaid labour. They were beated, abused and raped, and many infant fatalities occurred.

There have been mass graves found in New York where women's 'asylums' once existed. There were women and child homes operated by groups with no affiliation to any church or religion too.

http://gizmodo.com/what-we-found-at-hart-island-the-largest-mass-grave-in-1460171716



That's just a lazy retort. My post isn't any sort of whataboutery.. it's factual. I'm not trying to defend what happened or make it seem any less horrific. If people want to remain ignorant and assume that only Irish Catholics are/were capable of such atrocities then by all means, go right ahead.

To assume that protestants (by virtue of the fact that they simply weren't catholic) would be horrified by the idea of a mass grave attached to a children's home, is just idiotic.

It does look like you are trying to divert attention from this shameful burial by mentioning other people who may, or may not, have done similar acts. If that isn't "whataboutery", what is?

ScumLord

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Yes, but empathy is a very human emotion. Should that not have kicked in before a "foreign" belief (ie, that these girls and their children were the devil's spawn).
Faux empathy, which was given through a practiced smile is what these people practiced.

I wouldn't really agree with that, the thing is the church and religions in general play on that empathy and human intuition. the church will tell us we need to follow their instruction to not only save our eternal souls but the soles of our family, friends and wider community. But they're playing the long game, a bit of hardship now will save your eternal soul. Being cruel to sinners will save your community/country from evil taking hold. They really pushed a massive level of fear on people.



Yes people ignored this problem but I really don't think any of us would have done any different under the same circumstances. We have to learn from this experience, we're clearly coming out of a dark age in some respects. We shouldn't get bogged down in the environment that allowed this to happen but make sure it can't happen again. Because these types of people are still operating in Ireland. As I've gotten older and become more involved in community projects it's apparent the previous generation simply don't know any other way of doing things other than being insidious, money whoring fascists.

I relate it to the banking crisis. Yes the people taking out the loans were naive but the banks knew exactly what they were doing. While the people that took loans have to take a certain amount of responsibility for what happened the banks are responsible, they knew what they were doing and they didn't care, they acted like criminals.

Same here, the church facilitated the murder and rape of children, the enslavement of women and struck down anyone who could object.

auldgranny

When I read about this I wish there was a God and Heaven and Hell.
If there was a god those people who ran this home in his name and did the things they did would roast in hell and torment for eternity and those poor children would live in heaven and happiness for eternity.

Unfortunately I don't think there is any such thing so it just makes me so sad that these people did what they did and all that happened is children died too young and were thrown aside like rubbish and the people who allowed it to happen lived their life to their full potential and were buried with respect.

Czarcasm

WilyCoyote wrote: »

Yes, I realise that rational thinking is not the forte of brainwashed minds.

[hope you don't mind I snipped a bit]

...you'll see the picture of a downtrodden population - who found more pleasure in alcohol than between the sheets or up against a cock of hay.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

They didn't have to go along with it though. The church has no problems telling us about abortion and same sex marriage now and before about divorce and contraception. Why didn't they tell us how to treat these people and treat them far worse themselves?

Dan_Solo wrote: »

As I paraphrased Stephen Fry before, if the Catholic church only reflects the prevailing societal moral attitude of the times, then what the **** is it actually for?

You're not answering the question I'm asking guys, which is -

Czarcasm wrote: »

If you were to wipe out the RCC out of Ireland in the morning, actually scratch that, let's go further - wipe every trace of religion off the face of the planet...

You still think individuals wouldn't want to find ways in which they could feel morally and intellectually superior to everyone else?

It's a simple yes or no question -

Do you think, if every trace of religion were wiped from the face of the planet, that people wouldn't still want to find ways to perceive themselves as morally and intellectually superior to everyone else?

auldgranny

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't really agree with that, the thing is the church and religions in general play on that empathy and human intuition. the church will tell us we need to follow their instruction to not only save our eternal souls but the soles of our family, friends and wider community. But they're playing the long game, a bit of hardship now will save your eternal soul. Being cruel to sinners will save your community/country from evil taking hold. They really pushed a massive level of fear on people.



Yes people ignored this problem but I really don't think any of us would have done any different under the same circumstances. We have to learn from this experience, we're clearly coming out of a dark age in some respects. We shouldn't get bogged down in the environment that allowed this to happen but make sure it can't happen again. Because these types of people are still operating in Ireland. As I've gotten older and become more involved in community projects it's apparent the previous generation simply don't know any other way of doing things other than being insidious, money whoring fascists.

I relate it to the banking crisis. Yes the people taking out the loans were naive but the banks knew exactly what they were doing. While the people that took loans have to take a certain amount of responsibility for what happened the banks are responsible, they knew what they were doing and they didn't care, they acted like criminals.

Same here, the church facilitated the murder and rape of children, the enslavement of women and struck down anyone who could object.

Oh yeah cos innocent babies and young children being neglected, abused and dying is just the same as the banking crisis!!!!

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

You're not answering the question I'm asking guys, which is -

It's a simple yes or no question -

Do you think, if every trace of religion were wiped from the face of the planet, that people wouldn't still want to find ways to perceive themselves as morally and intellectually superior to everyone else?

It's a simple yes or no.... Sorry, how is this question relevant to "should we enslave mothers and starve babies to death"?
So, once more: if, as you are claiming, religion makes **** all difference to the moral standards of society, what the **** has it been FOR these last 10,000 years?

ScumLord

auldgranny wrote: »

Oh yeah cos innocent babies and young children being neglected, abused and dying is just the same as the banking crisis!!!!

I never said it was, try having another read.

SpaceTime

The scary thing is the last of these 'homes' closed in the 1990s!!

I also don't think the state will be capable of doing an objective investigation.

They're already coming out with nonsense about famine bones and different standards applying at the time.

Sickening really. As a 2014 Irish person it just further underlines a rotten, corrupt state.

WilyCoyote

ScumLord wrote: »

I wouldn't really agree with that, the thing is the church and religions in general play on that empathy and human intuition. the church will tell us we need to follow their instruction to not only save our eternal souls but the soles of our family, friends and wider community. But they're playing the long game, a bit of hardship now will save your eternal soul. Being cruel to sinners will save your community/country from evil taking hold. They really pushed a massive level of fear on people.
................................................................................................
..................................................................................................
.................................

Same here, the church facilitated the murder and rape of children, the enslavement of women and struck down anyone who could object.

I guess you're right. As with most human conviction, the church saw to undermine it to gain control. So human emotion was an egotistical weakness that had to be kept in check.

Empathy got crushed under the weight of psychological battering.

Surely a major upheaval in modern day thinking is needed - mass media and internet driven. But we shouldn't hold our breaths. There always is a celebrity waiting in the wings to cheer us up

Am heading out to work shortly. About 140 work colleagues - virtually all US born and I hope that they have not been reading the reports in the national dailies. As yet, the local daily hasn't touched the story.

Czarcasm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

It's a simple yes or no.... Sorry, how is this question relevant to "should we enslave mothers and starve babies to death"?
So, once more: if, as you are claiming, religion makes **** all difference to the moral standards of society, what the **** has it been FOR these last 10,000 years?

Can you answer my question first, then you can ask your questions. My question was -

Czarcasm wrote: »

Do you think, if every trace of religion were wiped from the face of the planet, that people wouldn't still want to find ways to perceive themselves as morally and intellectually superior to everyone else?

A simple yes or no will do. It's not a trick question.

comongethappy

Czarcasm wrote: »

Can you answer my question first, then you can ask your questions. My question was -





A simple yes or no will do. It's not a trick question.

Your question seems pointlessly irrelevant to the 800 dead babies & children in Tuam.

Dan_Solo

Czarcasm wrote: »

Can you answer my question first, then you can ask your questions. My question was -

A simple yes or no will do. It's not a trick question.

There's 7 billion people on earth. One of them is likely to find a way of doing just about anything you can think of.
Nope, it still isn't relevant to this discussion.

Nodin

comongethappy wrote: »

Your question seems pointlessly irrelevant to the 800 dead babies & children in Tuam.

It does, doesn't it.

end of the road

Czarcasm wrote: »

You're not answering the question I'm asking guys, which is -




It's a simple yes or no question -

Do you think, if every trace of religion were wiped from the face of the planet, that people wouldn't still want to find ways to perceive themselves as morally and intellectually superior to everyone else?

of course they would

Czarcasm

comongethappy wrote: »

Your question seems pointlessly irrelevant to the 800 dead babies & children in Tuam.

People have called for the dismantling of the RCC in Ireland because they see religion as the reason why 796 infants were dumped in a hole in the ground, they see religion as the reason why women and children were condemned to these hell holes by a society that shunned them.

My point is that religion made no difference, society carried out these atrocities and society is responsible for these human beings suffering, blaming religion is just an easy and convenient way to ease our collective conscience and say "Well we weren't responsible".

That's the very essence of the morally superior attitude I'm talking about that's still prevalent in society today as it was back then. Even when society is less religious now, some peoples attitudes haven't changed.

auldgranny

It is so hard to think of things like this happening on an impersonal level but if I thought about this on a personal level I would go insane. My daughter is an unmarried mother. She got pregnant while still in college. I know nothing of the father because she chooses not to tell us who he is. Maybe it's his choice not to be involved. Who cares, his loss. Maybe he doesn't even know he has a son.

All I know is that I have a beautiful, loving, happy-go-lucky grandson who has a mother, grandfather, grandmother, aunts and uncles who adore him, who is the life and soul of this house and the thought that some subhuman piece of **** could torture or neglect him till he died just because of the actions of his parents would make me want to physically rip them to shreds.