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brewery site plans

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    #122
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    Info from kclr article for those that are interested in the concerns of some people of Kilkenny.

    http://kclr96fm.com/kilkenny-county-council-private-meeting-causes-controversy/


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    #123
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    kikel wrote: »
    No harm in asking questions catbear. It's the lack of asking questions that allows people get away with things.


    Referring to people who question things and ask questions of the establishment as mob and only purpose to to cause obstruction is not very nice. Why refer to people in this way? If you could fight the other side of the arguement and show that we have no need to be concerned about Joe Crockett I would have more respect for your arguement. You are only trying to belittle the people with concerns rather than handling the concerns.
    For starters Joe Crockett seems to be the only fixation you've got. What about all the elected councillors, are they all corrupt too?

    Are the majority of the voters who put the protestors in the minority in on the scam too?

    The only conspiracy is in your fantasies. Question all you want but you're all smoke and no answers.


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    #124
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    I'm questioning and you are trying to discredit with talk of fantasies.

    I've question many people/councillors. I've no fixation but questions are arising about Joe Crockett sitting on both sides of the fence on this occasion. Rather than replying with why we should trust him you are trying to getting into talk of fantasies etc.


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    #125
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    Why do I have to dissolve your Joe Crocket fantasies for you?

    Is this some kind of learned helplessness?

    The councillors have a vote on this, they voted for it. The councillors are elected by the people. You don't like public will but that's life.

    Corruption fantasies, that's all you've got. You don't like what the public voted for but it's easier to blame one person than accept the democratic will.

    If you don't like democracy then try north korea.


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    #126
    Mankbag
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Mankbag


    catbear wrote: »
    Or maybe they have and they're satisfied but you're not as it doesn't fulfill your conspiracy narrative.

    It seems to me that there's a small but cantankerous element whose only obvious talent is obstruction. Their inability to communicate without hysteria, hyperbole or suspicion paints them as a disparate mob entirely enraptured by the constructions of their own fantasies.

    As you're clearly concerned about the future of the Brewery site, Catbear, a few quick questions for you.

    * Have you any comment on the fact that Joe Crockett, the man who committed Kilkenny County Council to the CAS bridge and the redevelopment of the Brewery site, is profiting personally (and took steps to try and ensure this wasn't known publicly)?

    * Or that he asserted that 500 jobs were "in the pipeline" for the city, with the possibility of 500 more, provided the bridge went ahead, a claim obediently recycled by our fearless local media but one without any basis in substance?

    * What's your own vision, if any, for the Brewery site? Are you happy that it majors in new office space or would you agree with the proposition that there's enough vacant office space in the city not to require any more and that the site should instead be ?

    * Given that you say the development of the site shouldn't become "a shopping list" for the people of Kilkenny (perish the thought that the residents would have a say in the future of their city!), are you of the opinion that what goes into it and doesn't go into it should be decided by the County Council executive instead?

    * Finally, does a group of concerned citizens become "a mob" only when you disagree with them?


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    #127
    Mankbag
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Mankbag


    catbear wrote: »
    Why do I have to dissolve your Joe Crocket fantasies for you?

    Is this some kind of learned helplessness?

    The councillors have a vote on this, they voted for it. The councillors are elected by the people. You don't like public will but that's life.

    Corruption fantasies, that's all you've got. You don't like what the public voted for but it's easier to blame one person than accept the democratic will.

    If you don't like democracy then try north korea.

    Correct on the overriding importance of the democratic will, clearly, but I'm sure you haven't forgotten that it was a combination of bureaucratic incompetence and political cowardice/ineptitude that brought about the economic crash - the politicians having been elected by that same democratic will.

    Really believe that an arrogant County Council executive and a bunch of councillors who won't say boo to a goose will lead to the optimum redevelopment of the Brewery site (and thus a potentially wonderful regeneration of the city centre)?


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    #128
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    Straight off Mankbag, there has been plans in existence for a bridge at the current site since the eighties, loooooooooooooooooooong before Joe Crocket arrived on the scene so you can drop that.

    The 500 jobs? I've already asserted on this thread that is a speculative assertion. It might end creating less than a hundred jobs, or it might become a college campus employing hundreds and bringing many more into the city.

    Personally the plans as presented in the window down in John street seem alright. Commercial space could cover a lot of things including education.

    I was at the consultation meeting back in the ormonde hotel, aside from Malcolm and the archeaology chap I don't remember anyone raising any objections. You can see why I question the motivation of these concerned citizens.


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    #129
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    catbear wrote: »
    Why do I have to dissolve your Joe Crocket fantasies for you?

    Is this some kind of learned helplessness?

    The councillors have a vote on this, they voted for it. The councillors are elected by the people. You don't like public will but that's life.

    Corruption fantasies, that's all you've got. You don't like what the public voted for but it's easier to blame one person than accept the democratic will.

    If you don't like democracy then try north korea.

    Are you going to defend Joe Crockett or just go on calling my question fantasies? You don't like people asking questions? Their are question over him sitting on both side of the fence in this important decision for Kilkenny. The people want a creative quarter. This was seen in the public consultation. We are getting a business park according to NTMA rules.


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    #130
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    kikel wrote: »
    The people want a creative quarter. This was seen in the public consultation. We are getting a business park according to NTMA rules.
    Cartoon Saloon is a creative enterprise, it's a business. Creative artistic endeavors can be businesses too. Do want to ban commercial art from the city?


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    #131
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    catbear wrote: »
    Cartoon Saloon is a creative enterprise, it's a business. Creative artistic endeavors can be businesses too. Do want to ban commercial art from the city?

    where did I say I want to ban commercial art from the city?


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    #132
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    My main question here is. Is Joe Crockett is right man to be involved in this project? Is there a conflict of interest in him signing contract for this bridge and the going to work for NTMA? I believe there is. Do you? If you don't can you please tell me why not?


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    #133
    Mankbag
    Registered Users Posts: 186 ✭✭Mankbag


    catbear wrote: »
    Straight off Mankbag, there has been plans in existence for a bridge at the current site since the eighties, loooooooooooooooooooong before Joe Crocket arrived on the scene so you can drop that.

    Sorry but you're missing the point - deliberately, I suspect. I didn't say Joe Crockett designed the bridge. I said he committed the County Council to it and is personally profiting from the redevelopment of the Brewery site.

    Your comments, please, and kindly stop trying to avoid the issue.


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    #134
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    kikel wrote: »
    where did I say I want to ban commercial art from the city?
    You said the people wanted a creative quarter, creative endeavors can happen commercially. Art is a business but you don't want a business park and it's from that assertion that you don't want existing commercial art like Cartoon Saloon in the new development.

    You're anti creative art as a sustainable enterprise.


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    #135
    Sky King
    Registered Users Posts: 4,431 ✭✭✭Sky King


    Serious strawman arguements from you there Catbear in fairness. Kikel didnt say anything to suggest being anti creative art as an enterprise.
    catbear wrote: »
    Cartoon Saloon is a creative enterprise, it's a business. Creative artistic endeavors can be businesses too.

    Thus commercial art can fit neatly into a creative quarter or a business park, but non commercial art can't fit so neatly into a commercial business park.

    Non commercial art would be an essential element of a creative quarter wouldn't it?


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    #136
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    Sky King wrote: »

    Thus commercial art can fit neatly into a creative quarter or a business park, but non commercial art can't fit so neatly into a commercial business park.

    Non commercial art would be an essential element of a creative quarter wouldn't it?
    But Kikel said the people wanted a creative quarter! is not Cartoon Saloon creative?
    Plus why can't non commercial art fit neatly into a commercial business park?
    Plenty of art happens funded to compliment commercial enterprise.

    Who'd saying there can't be non commercial art in the new development. Kikel thinks there can't but I don't see where this is explicitly ruled out. Please someone show me where non commercial art is ruled out, please do it or say nothing.

    Actually now that think of it plenty of community art has happened out of business parks, because guess what, community art is a business!
    Sproai in Waterford is based in a commercial business park! shock, horror!
    Bui Bolg in Wexford is based in a commercial business park! shock, horror!
    So how can a commercial business park be seen as incompatible with non commercial creative arts?


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    #137
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    You raise a good question. Part of the NTMA deal is the project must be commercially viable. Can this commercial viability be achieved if non commercial businesses take up space in a commercial venture. Kilkenny is offering up the brewery site as collateral for investment. NTMA have control of what goes into the site. Not Kilkenny county council.

    What happens if the site doesn't make money in the agreed timeframe. Does Kiljenny forfeit its stake in the piece of land? People have concerns that are not being answered.


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    #138
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    kikel wrote: »
    You raise a good question. Part of the NTMA deal is the project must be commercially viable. Can this commercial viability be achieved if non commercial businesses take up space in a commercial venture. Kilkenny is offering up the brewery site as collateral for investment. NTMA have control of what goes into the site. Not Kilkenny county council.

    What happens if the site doesn't make money in the agreed timeframe. Does Kiljenny forfeit its stake in the piece of land? People have concerns that are not being answered.
    So basically your assertion that there's isn't a creative element to this development is just your own speculation, right?
    Can we just get that one fact straight, ok?


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    #139
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    catbear wrote: »
    So basically your assertion that there's isn't a creative element to this development is just your own speculation, right?
    Can we just get that one fact straight, ok?

    Some Kilkenny citizens have concerns about the future use of the site. Their concerns are around will it be a creative quarter.


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    #140
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    kikel wrote: »
    My main question here is. Is Joe Crockett is right man to be involved in this project? Is there a conflict of interest in him signing contract for this bridge and the going to work for NTMA? I believe there is. Do you? If you don't can you please tell me why not?

    @Catbear do you believe there is a conflict of interest? If not, can you please tell me why you believe so?


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    #141
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    kikel wrote: »
    Some Kilkenny citizens have concerns about the future use of the site. Their concerns are around will it be a creative quarter.
    At least we've established through the examples I've provided that commercial business parks are no hinderance to the development of "creative" enterprises. So the new brewery commercial business park, as you referred to it, can accommodate "creative" endeavors.

    What these endeavors may be is entirely up to those who grasp the reins.

    Cartoon Saloon and Barnstorm weren't started out of public consultation meetings! They were started by individuals with ambitions and vision who took risks and sunk their energy and time into their businesses. It didn't just happen with a stroke of a pen. Fundraising for the Watergate theatre was ongoing for years before it opened its doors.

    So some Kilkenny citizens have "concerns"? Some Kilkenny citizens once thought we needed a theatre and they set about making it happen themselves. Whining about it didn't make it happen, same with Cartoon Saloon and Barnstorm and don't forget Bickerstaff and the Kilkenny Arts Festival.

    So these kilkenny citizens, apart from their concerns, what vision, what enterprise for Kilkenny are they bringing to the table?

    Edit to add, just saw you post this after I'd submitted my reply to your first post.
    kikel wrote: »
    @Catbear do you believe there is a conflict of interest? If not, can you please tell me why you believe so?
    I can't disprove what you believe, otherwise it wouldn't be belief, would it?

    So how about expounding to me what visions these "concerned" citizens for Kilkenny are bringing to the table in relation to a "creative" quarter?

    Second Edit: I remember Kikel you did this before, you bladdered on about great creative ideas for the site on another thread but wouldn't say what they are. You're a bluffer, a time-waster. Why don't you just start your "Jo Crocket" thread where you can blame him for every idea you can't back up.


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    #142
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    catbear wrote: »
    At least we've established through the examples I've provided that commercial business parks are no hinderance to the development of "creative" enterprises. So the new brewery commercial business park, as you referred to it, can accommodate "creative" endeavors.

    What these endeavors may be is entirely up to those who grasp the reins.

    Cartoon Saloon and Barnstorm weren't started out of public consultation meetings! They were started by individuals with ambitions and vision who took risks and sunk their energy and time into their businesses. It didn't just happen with a stroke of a pen. Fundraising for the Watergate theatre was ongoing for years before it opened its doors.

    So some Kilkenny citizens have "concerns"? Some Kilkenny citizens once thought we needed a theatre and they set about making it happen themselves. Whining about it didn't make it happen, same with Cartoon Saloon and Barnstorm and don't forget Bickerstaff and the Kilkenny Arts Festival.

    So these kilkenny citizens, apart from their concerns, what vision, what enterprise for Kilkenny are they bringing to the table?

    Edit to add, just saw you post this after I'd submitted my reply to your first post.
    I can't disprove what you believe, otherwise it wouldn't be belief, would it?

    So how about expounding to me what visions these "concerned" citizens for Kilkenny are bringing to the table in relation to a "creative" quarter?

    Second Edit: I remember Kikel you did this before, you bladdered on about great creative ideas for the site on another thread but wouldn't say what they are. You're a bluffer, a time-waster. Why don't you just start your "Jo Crocket" thread where you can blame him for every idea you can't back up.

    Seriously? Is their really a need to call me a time waster and a bluffer? Boards is more than that? What's the saying, attack the post not the person.

    The reason I stopped communicating the last time with you was because the thread ended up like this one.

    Again, I give up.


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    #143
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    kikel wrote: »

    Again, I give up.
    Give up?

    As with the last time you had nothing to give.

    You're a <snip> and I've called you out.


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    #144
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    For anyone that cares, I believe that when people think of a creative quarter the have a vision of something like this.

    http://www.creativequarterfolkestone.org.uk/about-the-quarter/

    Not a business park such as this. http://www.eastpoint.ie/ that will be empty come evening time as all it will be is business's. No life, no soul.


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    #145
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    catbear wrote: »
    Give up?

    As with the last time you had nothing to give.

    You're a <snip> and I've called you out.

    Seriously. I'm asking you to stop. Show some respect. Attack the post. Not the person.


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    #146
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    kikel wrote: »
    Seriously. I'm asking you to stop. Show some respect. Attack the post. Not the person.
    I'm finished. I attacked your post and then you tried to deflect by trying to bring Joe crocket into it.
    Now I'm attacking you?

    Goodbye.


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    #147
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    catbear wrote: »
    I'm finished. I attacked your post and then you tried to deflect by trying to bring Joe crocket into it.
    Now I'm attacking you?

    Goodbye.

    How did I try to deflect by bringing Joe Crockett into it? He was mentioned in my first post on this subject today.

    Throwing personal insults is not what boards is about. It's about discussion.


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    #148
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    kikel wrote: »
    How did I try to deflect by bringing Joe Crockett into it? He was mentioned in my first post on this subject today.

    Throwing personal insults is not what boards is about. It's about discussion.
    Are you seriously winding me up. Look at your own post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99374569&postcount=140

    I backed up my attack on your post and you deflected. I called you out for that.

    The link you provided highlights an initiative that's doable in Kilkenny and is in no way as far as I see from my initial scan precluded from happening on the brewery site just because you termed it a commercial business park.

    Now I'm done for tonight. Don't bother replying if you feel I'm attacking the poster, use the report button instead.


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    #149
    kikel
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭kikel


    catbear wrote: »
    Are you seriously winding me up. Look at your own post http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99374569&postcount=140

    I backed up my attack on your post and you deflected. I called you out for that.

    The link you provided highlights an initiative that's doable in Kilkenny and is in no way as far as I see from my initial scan precluded from happening on the brewery site just because you termed it a commercial business park.

    Now I'm done for tonight. Don't bother replying if you feel I'm attacking the poster, use the report button instead.

    Goodnight. Sleep well.


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    #150
    Help!!!!
    Registered Users Posts: 2,965 ✭✭✭Help!!!!


    catbear wrote: »
    Give up?

    As with the last time you had nothing to give.

    You're a <snip> and I've called you out.

    Wow what a big person you are, nothing worse than a cowardly keyboard warrior......you wouldn't work for the council or are involved in some way with this scheme....would you?


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    #151
    Captain Havoc
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,391 Mod ✭✭✭✭Captain Havoc


    catbear wrote: »
    Give up?

    As with the last time you had nothing to give.

    You're a <snip> and I've called you out.

    There's no need for the name calling

    https://ormondelanguagetours.com

    Walking Tours of Kilkenny in English, French or German.



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