Way to go Sinn Fein

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

I'm not going to engage with you if that's the best rebuttal you can offer.

It's such a shite case you have its all I'm willing to bother with. Life is short enough as it is.

Banjo String

dxhound2005 wrote: »

Here are the figures for a private house in Newry worth €125,000 and another one worth €375,000. Domectic rates €900 on the first one, €2700 on the second. I converted everything to Euro for convenience and the figures are rounded a bit.
.

2700€ per year.

I pay more than that in my USC alone. How much are their USC charges?

Very good of you converting it however. Thanks.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

It's such a shite case you have its all I'm willing to bother with. Life is short enough as it is.

Wow, Shinners really don't like the idea that FF were a center-left party...

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wow, Shinners really don't like the idea that FF were a center-left party...

No, anyone with half a brain don't like the idea being suggested that they were a centre left party, because its an affront to reality.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wow, Shinners really don't like the idea that FF were a center-left party...

And that's all it was, an idea. No basis in fact.
Spotters badge for you there.

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

No, anyone with half a brain don't like the idea being suggested that they were a centre left party, because its an affront to reality.

Why? You're just making unsubstantiated claims.

kingchess

maybe some one moved the centre??

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why? You're just making unsubstantiated claims.

...I'm not the one making the claims.

steddyeddy

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Wow, Shinners really don't like the idea that FF were a center-left party...

I have asked you a few times to explain the meaning of these terms. Cleary you don't know outside of what the media tells you. Therefore your use of them is pointless.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Why? You're just making unsubstantiated claims.

The only people who ever claim Fianna Fail are leftist are Irish right wingers funnily enough.

A Dub in Glasgo

Is this a ruse to get the thread to 1500 posts?

Iwasfrozen

Nodin wrote: »

...I'm not the one making the claims.

You're claiming FF are right wing without anything to support that.

Whereas I can point to

Social partnership.
The expansion of the welfare state.
Public-private partnerships.
Increasing the power of the unions.
Increased public spending.

as indications of being left wing.

Dan_solo wrote:

The only people who ever claim Fianna Fail are right wing are Irish left wingers funnily enough.

FYP.

Nodin

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're claiming FF are right wing without anything to support that..

No, you're the one claiming they are left wing with zero sources that back you up.

Dan_Solo

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

FYP.

Funny then that nobody who calls themself a leftie would ever vote for the cvnts.

Iwasfrozen

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Funny then that nobody who calls themself a leftie would ever vote for the cvnts.

The lefties have plenty of their own cvunts to vote for.

FFs base are the rural and urban working class.

Donkey Oaty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

You're claiming FF are right wing without anything to support that.

Whereas I can point to

Social partnership.
The expansion of the welfare state.
Public-private partnerships.
Increasing the power of the unions.
Increased public spending.

as indications of being left wing.


FYP.

For being right wing, I can point to these policies:

. Anti-abortion;

. Nationalist, conservative sentiments, often expressed speaking in an obscure, elitist, ancient tongue which is incomprehensible to most of the populace;

. pro-Hitler (Dev/book of condolences/etc)

. refusal to constantly express solidarity with North Korea or Cuba.

Bannasidhe

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Oh yeah I totally agree with you there, FF are populist posers but in terms of economics they're certainly more on the center-left side of things than center-right.

No, although I can see where you are coming from and to a casual observer it is an easy mistake to make.

FF are far more akin to the now defunked Whigs in the UK but without the level of social conscience that was evident under Gladstone and Lloyd George [edit to add: Lemass was in their vein to give the man deserved credit].

The difference is that is a left party are not invested in 'improving' the existing status quo and tweaking it to make it a little bit more equal, the left's goal is to actually change the structure of society with the goal of removing inherent inequalities.

FF are, in my opinion, centre-right because they are socially conservative and heavily invested in the existing societal structures with no desire to change them in any meaningful way whatsoever. They are happy with the existing structure of society with haves and have nots but will act to slightly improve the lot of the have nots out of a paternalist nobless oblige attitude rather than any desire to effect real change. Their power base was among the urban non-manual labour demographic. Their funders members of the business community.

FG would be more akin to the Conservatives (pre-Thatcher version) - socially very conservative, don't see anything wrong with the status quo. Power base is large landowners and those who fear change (don't mean that to sound insulting - it's simply the best way of explaining it)

Parties of the left see society as inherently unequal because it is built it. The radical far left want to tear it all down and start again.
Then as you move closer to the centre the less radical the measures they are willing to support. By the time you get to the current incarnation of the LP they are so close to centre that they simply engage in a bit more tweaking than the 'Whigs' - the original incarnation of the Labour Party in the UK was far more to the left - they introduced the NHS and that was a game changer for society. Not tweaking - Deliberately Changing.

Iwasfrozen

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

For being right wing, I can point to these policies:

. Anti-abortion;

. Nationalist, conservative sentiments, often expressed speaking in an obscure, elitist, ancient tongue which is incomprehensible to most of the populace;

. pro-Hitler (Dev/book of condolences/etc)

. refusal to constantly express solidarity with North Korea or Cuba.

Abortion is not a left or a right wing issue.
Nationalism is not a left or a right wing issue.
Nazism is not a left or a right wing issue. (hell Hitler was far to the left of todays labour party)
Solidarity with the remnants of the bat **** crazy Soviet empire is not a left or right wing issue.

Donkey Oaty

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Abortion is not a left or a right wing issue.
Nationalism is not a left or a right wing issue.
Nazism is not a left or a right wing issue. (hell Hitler was far to the left of todays labour party)
Solidarity with the remnants of the bat **** crazy Soviet empire is not a left or right wing issue.

Hmmm...so are you saying that the left-wing/right-wing thing a bit out of date?

What are you, one of these progressive types?

Iwasfrozen

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No, although I can see where you are coming from and to a casual observer it is an easy mistake to make.

FF are far more akin to the now defunked Whigs in the UK but without the level of social conscience that was evident under Gladstone and Lloyd George.

The difference is that is a left party are not invested in 'improving' the existing status quo and tweaking it to make it a little bit more equal, the left's goal is to actually change the structure of society with the goal of removing inherent inequalities.

FF are, in my opinion, centre-right because they are socially conservative and heavily invested in the existing societal structures with no desire to change them in any meaningful way whatsoever. They are happy with the existing structure of society with haves and have nots but will act to slightly improve the lot of the have nots out of a paternalist nobless oblige attitude rather than any desire to effect real change. Their power base was among the urban non-manual labour demographic. Their funders members of the business community.

FG would be more akin to the Conservatives (pre-Thatcher version) - socially very conservative, don't see anything wrong with the status quo. Power base is large landowners and those who fear change (don't mean that to sound insulting - it's simply the best way of explaining it)

Parties of the left see society as inherently unequal because it is built it. The radical far left want to tear it all down and start again.
Then as you move closer to the centre the less radical the measures they are willing to support. By the time you get to the current incarnation of the LP they are so close to centre that they simply engage in a bit more tweaking than the 'Whigs' - the original incarnation of the Labour Party in the UK was far more to the left - they introduced the NHS and that was a game changer for society. Not tweaking - Deliberately Changing.

+1 I would agree with what you're saying here but I would put Labour and FF in the same category together, they're both centre left trying to twerk the system to make it more equal rather than building a new system.

FF are slightly more conservative, less dependent on the unions and their power base is rural and urban working class rather than the mostly urban working and middle class built labour and while historically they would have been very different as of late they have become very similar in my view.

Donkey Oaty

Jesus, sometimes it's almost as if the whole left/right thing was chosen by a bunch of random foreigners - let's say French - at complete random.

steddyeddy

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Jesus, sometimes it's almost as if the whole left/right thing was chosen by a bunch of random foreigners - let's say French - at complete random.

It was . It's (right and left) now used as a disparaging term to label the political party you don't like.

Bannasidhe

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

+1 I would agree with what you're saying here but I would put Labour and FF in the same category together, they're both centre left trying to twerk the system to make it more equal rather than building a new system.

FF are slightly more conservative, less dependent on the unions and their power base is rural and urban working class rather than the mostly urban working and middle class built labour and while historically they would have been very different as of late they have become very similar in my view.

Whereas from my perspective I would be more inclined to say LP have moved to the right towards FF's position.

Shall we agree on saying FF/LP - centre

FG - right of centre

SF - left of centre (or maybe leftfleft...that remains to be determined)

Iwasfrozen

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Whereas from my perspective I would be more inclined to say LP have moved to the right towards FF's position.

Shall we agree on saying FF/LP - centre

FG - right of centre

SF - left of centre (or maybe leftfleft...that remains to be determined)

FF/LP is where we don't agree, I would put them left of centre with SF as democratic socialists.

K-9

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Which, given the have the same policies, would also make FG 'centre-left'

Nope - both are centre-right. FG is a fraction more to the right but only a fraction.

I'm a lefty - I know a lefty party when I see one and FF ain't left - just hideously popularist which is not at all the same thing.

Look back at the FF/PD government and tell me that was left wing. Seriously...

FF are the populist party, its exactly why they are the most successful in Ireland by a distance and one of the most in Europe.

They're right wing economically but left wing on issues like Social Welfare (looking after pensioners and substantially increasing SW payments during the boom) and Minimum wage. The ESRI even recognised their 3 budgets as more socially inclusive than a Labour coalition one.

Bannasidhe

K-9 wrote: »

FF are the populist party, its exactly why they are the most successful in Ireland by a distance and one of the most in Europe.

They're right wing economically but left wing on issues like Social Welfare (looking after pensioners and substantially increasing SW payments during the boom) and Minimum wage. The ESRI even recognised their 3 budgets as more socially inclusive than a Labour coalition one.

Oh, I'm not disputing that.

My argument is that the motivation behind the party determines their position on the left-right spectrum rather than the policies they actually implement/legislation they introduce.

FF's policies can vary between extremes but the underlying motivation remains the same - let's get in/ stay in power. They have little in the way of motivating political ideology. So I put them in the centre. Neither fish nor fowl.

FG I would place right of centre as they have an attitude that society as a whole is fine so no need for real change combined with a hint an old school school principle 'straighten up and fly right' towards those they perceive as not playing the game - not quite Tebbit's on yer bike but certainly 'firm father figuresque'. Absolutely fowl but a wren rather than an eagle.

LP - FF with added Political Correctness and a nod at an ideology but no real desire to bring about any radical change - sure if a few schemes mean some members of 'minorities' rise to the top of the socio-economic ladder that'll do. A fishy fowl.

SF are fish - they want to change Ireland including the most radical change of all - to bring the Unionist Presbyterian into the fold of a United Ireland - that will really stir things up. However, it remains to be seen how much they want to change the way society itself is structured. Some accuse them of being Marxist but they really are not that radical by a long shot. So, the interesting thing is will they seek a big tweak* or will they try and build something genuinely new.

Our founding father's failed to build something new, they simply adopted the existing UK structure of the turn of the 20th century they were used to and then began to tinker as they went along. Not always successfully.

So - the question is - is SF a minnow, trout, pike or swordfish?



*á la NHS style of 'social engineering' - to explain, opponents at the time worried that free healthcare would result in the rise in the numbers of working class tipping the vote balance away from the traditional ruling political elite. It did - Labour replaced the Whigs

carpejugulum

Nodin wrote: »

No, anyone with half a brain don't like the idea being suggested that they were a centre left party, because its an affront to reality.

Of course, where did the accusation that they anything but socialists come from?

Jester252

Anyone claiming FF are left by any degree must have not lived in Ireland during the 00s

swimming in a sea

Jester252 wrote: »

Anyone claiming FF are left by any degree must have not lived in Ireland during the 00s

I always saw them as a party of the left, during the 00s they inflated the civil service to heights way above the poor private workers whose taxes paid for it. They should have kept the spending tight and cut the taxes, that's how to run an economy.

road_high

swimming in a sea wrote: »

I always saw them as a party of the left, during the 00s they inflated the civil service to heights way above the poor private workers whose taxes paid for it. They should have kept the spending tight and cut the taxes, that's how to run an economy.

But wouldn't have won them elections. They are a party of zero financial prudence and the spectre of them at the wheel again is downright scary as someone who lost their job during their last reign of gross incompetence.