DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

Dub13

I have not been active here the last week as after the big day I decided to take a week solid off from running and even reading about it. Dying to go out for a light jog but off to Madrid for the football for a couple of days so will leave the running till the weekend.
My general recovery was grand, the usual stiffness getting better each day, but my left heel was very sore and I had a bit of a limp for a few days after, intact it only really got better over the weekend. I never had this before, is it part of the after effect or could it be runner related..?

pagep195

menoscemo wrote: »

Yeah to be honest it's not the pace of long run that's the problem, it's the lack of other miles and speedwork that you find in a typical beginners progamme.

For example, when I ran 3:04 (7 min/mile) a year ago, my weekend Long runs were typically between 8-9 min/mile but I would have done something like 6 or 7 20+ milers.
Also during the week i would also be doing a speedier session at or significantly faster than planned Marathon pace. I think I peaked at these running up to about 15 miles at 6:50-6:55 pace (Marathon pace).

The problem as a novice is that your body just wouldn't cope with all the stress and Mileage that a more advanced plan would put on the body. So for a beginner I think the best startegy is the one most of you took, i.e. a novice plan.

Going forward I think you can look at a more advanced plan. Something like P&D advanced marathon (don't be put off by the 'advanced' bit, it's a very intermediate plan), should give you massive gains on your next marathon. However in the meantime keep up the running habit. The Basic P&D programme would require you to be running 30-40 miles per week regularly before startuing it. It's not something you can take on from scratch.

Thanks Menoscemo and to all who replied to this - a lot of sense in what you say, and you are obviously speaking as someone who has run some very good marathon times.

For the record, I ran last year's race in 3:54 having run 18 miles as my longest run in training. I ran my long runs at the expected pace for the marathon, purely out of ignorance, thinking that was the way to do it. On marathon day, I stuck with the 3:50 pacers until mile 19 and then suffering badly over the last 6 miles. The goal was to finish under 4 hours so I was very happy. A lack of long runs in training was an obvious problem last year - I didn't have the stamina in the end.

This year, the goal was again to go under 4 hours - a few more longer runs than last year but never over 19 miles. Finished in 4:02 and was happy with that based on the conditions on the day and an injury interrupted last 4 weeks of training.

I didn't follow any plans religiously - 3 short runs during the week (no more than 10k) and a longer run at the weekends building up week by week.

I would be interested in following a more structured plan for future marathons to see if it delivers significant improvements in my time.

Darren 83

Would P&D advanced marathon be a logical step for me, I intend to build up the miles over the winter and then get stuck into P&D marathon plan. Maybe do the Bohermeen Half in March see how that goes.

menoscemo

Darren 83 wrote: »

Would P&D advanced marathon be a logical step for me, I intend to build up the miles over the winter and then get stuck into P&D marathon plan. Maybe do the Bohermeen Half in March see how that goes.

Yes definitely.
Anyone who has done one marathon and wants to improve should be well capable of following the P&D 35-55 mpw programme. I advise anyone thinking of that to buy the book and read through all the notes/explainations of the different paces and philosophy behind them. For a newish runner it is a really good education.

MaggotBrain

Posted on FB:

Dubgal72

MaggotBrain wrote: »

Posted on FB:

We shall be known as the veterans of '14, the year of the carnage

Firedance

menoscemo wrote: »

Yeah to be honest it's not the pace of long run that's the problem, it's the lack of other miles and speedwork that you find in a typical beginners progamme.

For example, when I ran 3:04 (7 min/mile) a year ago, my weekend Long runs were typically between 8-9 min/mile but I would have done something like 6 or 7 20+ milers.
Also during the week i would also be doing a speedier session at or significantly faster than planned Marathon pace. I think I peaked at these running up to about 15 miles at 6:50-6:55 pace (Marathon pace).

The problem as a novice is that your body just wouldn't cope with all the stress and Mileage that a more advanced plan would put on the body. So for a beginner I think the best startegy is the one most of you took, i.e. a novice plan.

Going forward I think you can look at a more advanced plan. Something like P&D advanced marathon (don't be put off by the 'advanced' bit, it's a very intermediate plan), should give you massive gains on your next marathon. However in the meantime keep up the running habit. The Basic P&D programme would require you to be running 30-40 miles per week regularly before startuing it. It's not something you can take on from scratch.

totally agree with this from my own perspective, looking at the others in the club V the plan I choose to move too after injury this is where the big difference was, we all did the 'LSR' at the weekend but the others were knocking out several fast 6-12 mile runs midweek on top of that, I wasn't (nor could I have)

I'd love to get some advice here too on a 2 hour half marathon plan, should I just post in the main forum to ask the question? The club will be starting training in January but I'd like to get a few other views too.

martyoo

I advise anyone thinking of that to buy the book and read through all the notes/explainations of the different paces and philosophy behind them. For a newish runner it is a really good education.

Just ordered this book from Amazon. Have heard great things about it on here.

Mimojo

[/QUOTE]I'd love to get some advice here too on a 2 hour half marathon plan, should I just post in the main forum to ask the question? The club will be starting training in January but I'd like to get a few other views too.[/QUOTE]

Lots of interesting information on here today! I took am thinking about whats next. Have spend some time (a lot of time!) reading through training logs today (Ososlo just discovered yours, WOW is all I can say!) and am a bit overwhelmed with all the various types of training.

I really enjoyed the marathon training, and even though I dont have a lot of running experience I really liked sticking to the plan and seeing the lsr's getting longer and longer as the weeks went by. I like the idea of doing the training again using a slightly more advanced plan, and seeing the progress, and knocking some time off the marathon. I followed HH1 after getting advice here, before that had attempted (badly) some hill sprints and interval training, I just didn't have the experience to keep them going, and it became very apparent that I just needed to get lots of slow miles on the clock to get me to the marathon. This time around maybe I could incorporate some tempo runs and intervals, again I would need more information on this and exactly what I am doing! Thinking for this joining a club may be the way to go.

Initial thought after Monday was DCM 2015, but thinking about it now with other things going on in "real" life, I know that I wont be able to commit 100% to the training (small matter of getting married!). So then was thinking about another Marathon, like Limerick of Belfast earlier in the year, but then that feels like it is going to come very soon.

I then started wondering about focusing on getting faster at other distance, I have only ever ran 3 races as part of the Race Series this year, so there are SO many races I could enter and aim for some pb's. I really like the idea of a HM too, my current time is 2:09, so to aim for a sub 2 hr would be great! Maybe I could get a specific HM plan and follow that, might be a bit less taxing?

Finally have seen a lot of mentions of training by HR, and from what I have read so far seems like a really interesting, must read up more on that too!

If I am honest DCM did take a lot out of me, more than I would like to admit, and I am currently on antibiotics. I have already had an awful dose of flu before Monday so I think my immune system is pretty low at the moment, almost certainly from the training and the race. I have never trained like this before so think it has really taken its toll. But then I am itching to get out running and have a new plan!!!

Sorry reading this back it is such a ramble! I guess I dont know what direction to go in, any suggestions very welcome!

pagep195

Mimojo wrote: »

I'd love to get some advice here too on a 2 hour half marathon plan, should I just post in the main forum to ask the question? The club will be starting training in January but I'd like to get a few other views too.[/QUOTE]

Lots of interesting information on here today! I took am thinking about whats next. Have spend some time (a lot of time!) reading through training logs today (Ososlo just discovered yours, WOW is all I can say!) and am a bit overwhelmed with all the various types of training.

I really enjoyed the marathon training, and even though I dont have a lot of running experience I really liked sticking to the plan and seeing the lsr's getting longer and longer as the weeks went by. I like the idea of doing the training again using a slightly more advanced plan, and seeing the progress, and knocking some time off the marathon. I followed HH1 after getting advice here, before that had attempted (badly) some hill sprints and interval training, I just didn't have the experience to keep them going, and it became very apparent that I just needed to get lots of slow miles on the clock to get me to the marathon. This time around maybe I could incorporate some tempo runs and intervals, again I would need more information on this and exactly what I am doing! Thinking for this joining a club may be the way to go.

Initial thought after Monday was DCM 2015, but thinking about it now with other things going on in "real" life, I know that I wont be able to commit 100% to the training (small matter of getting married!). So then was thinking about another Marathon, like Limerick of Belfast earlier in the year, but then that feels like it is going to come very soon.

I then started wondering about focusing on getting faster at other distance, I have only ever ran 3 races as part of the Race Series this year, so there are SO many races I could enter and aim for some pb's. I really like the idea of a HM too, my current time is 2:09, so to aim for a sub 2 hr would be great! Maybe I could get a specific HM plan and follow that, might be a bit less taxing?

Finally have seen a lot of mentions of training by HR, and from what I have read so far seems like a really interesting, must read up more on that too!

If I am honest DCM did take a lot out of me, more than I would like to admit, and I am currently on antibiotics. I have already had an awful dose of flu before Monday so I think my immune system is pretty low at the moment, almost certainly from the training and the race. I have never trained like this before so think it has really taken its toll. But then I am itching to get out running and have a new plan!!!

Sorry reading this back it is such a ramble! I guess I dont know what direction to go in, any suggestions very welcome![/QUOT

This can be a difficult time for novice runners - the immediate aftermath of a marathon can leave us feeling a little deflated (currently suffering post marathon blues in a big way!), after such a long build-up you suddenly don't have that focussed goal in front of you. Coupled with that, we are facing into the long, cold winter months where finding motivation to get out running can be difficult.

Now is the time to look at the calendar a plan a series of runs to take you through to the Spring time - there are loads of Parkruns, 10ks and half marathons coming up, all of which provide you with an opportunity to aim for PBs without the real time consuming training required for the marathon.

I don't want to let that fitness base go, so I hope to keep running 3-4 times a week, over shorter distances and enter some races at 10km and half marathon to improve my times. There are lots of plans on the internet covering all distances so maybe that is something you might consider because without a goal, it is easy to slip back into the non running lifestyle.

pagep195

Mimojo wrote: »

I'd love to get some advice here too on a 2 hour half marathon plan, should I just post in the main forum to ask the question? The club will be starting training in January but I'd like to get a few other views too.[/QUOTE]

Lots of interesting information on here today! I took am thinking about whats next. Have spend some time (a lot of time!) reading through training logs today (Ososlo just discovered yours, WOW is all I can say!) and am a bit overwhelmed with all the various types of training.

I really enjoyed the marathon training, and even though I dont have a lot of running experience I really liked sticking to the plan and seeing the lsr's getting longer and longer as the weeks went by. I like the idea of doing the training again using a slightly more advanced plan, and seeing the progress, and knocking some time off the marathon. I followed HH1 after getting advice here, before that had attempted (badly) some hill sprints and interval training, I just didn't have the experience to keep them going, and it became very apparent that I just needed to get lots of slow miles on the clock to get me to the marathon. This time around maybe I could incorporate some tempo runs and intervals, again I would need more information on this and exactly what I am doing! Thinking for this joining a club may be the way to go.

Initial thought after Monday was DCM 2015, but thinking about it now with other things going on in "real" life, I know that I wont be able to commit 100% to the training (small matter of getting married!). So then was thinking about another Marathon, like Limerick of Belfast earlier in the year, but then that feels like it is going to come very soon.

I then started wondering about focusing on getting faster at other distance, I have only ever ran 3 races as part of the Race Series this year, so there are SO many races I could enter and aim for some pb's. I really like the idea of a HM too, my current time is 2:09, so to aim for a sub 2 hr would be great! Maybe I could get a specific HM plan and follow that, might be a bit less taxing?

Finally have seen a lot of mentions of training by HR, and from what I have read so far seems like a really interesting, must read up more on that too!

If I am honest DCM did take a lot out of me, more than I would like to admit, and I am currently on antibiotics. I have already had an awful dose of flu before Monday so I think my immune system is pretty low at the moment, almost certainly from the training and the race. I have never trained like this before so think it has really taken its toll. But then I am itching to get out running and have a new plan!!!

Sorry reading this back it is such a ramble! I guess I dont know what direction to go in, any suggestions very welcome![/QUOTE

This can be a difficult time for novice runners - the immediate aftermath of a marathon can leave us feeling a little deflated (currently suffering post marathon blues in a big way!), after such a long build-up you suddenly don't have that focussed goal in front of you. Coupled with that, we are facing into the long, cold winter months where finding motivation to get out running can be difficult.

Now is the time to look at the calendar a plan a series of runs to take you through to the Spring time - there are loads of Parkruns, 10ks and half marathons coming up, all of which provide you with an opportunity to aim for PBs without the real time consuming training required for the marathon.

I don't want to let that fitness base go, so I hope to keep running 3-4 times a week, over shorter distances and enter some races at 10km and half marathon to improve my times. There are lots of plans on the internet covering all distances so maybe that is something you might consider because without a goal, it is easy to slip back into the non running lifestyle.

Nicsx

martyoo wrote: »

Just ordered this book from Amazon.

Me too! I also ordered 'The art of running faster'. I hope they work

gingersnap

Got to take my new DCM top for a little run yesterday. Did 5k and it felt good to get back out again after the few days off.

I'm finding it hard not having a plan to work off and no goal/race to work to. I have to figure out where to go from here but I really enjoyed the long runs so I like the thought of doing a medium/long run every week (maybe 10-12 miles)

I've signed up to do a Chi running course. I carry a lot of tension in my shoulders when I run so I'm hoping this will help with my form.

Casey78

Nicsx wrote: »

Me too! I also ordered 'The art of running faster'. I hope they work

How much did ye pay?

blockic

Nicsx wrote: »

Me too! I also ordered 'The art of running faster'. I hope they work

Haha..you make them sound like some magic wand! Unfortunately ye might have to add some hours of blood, sweat and tears before the magic happens!

yaboya1

blockic wrote: »

Haha..you make them sound like some magic wand! Unfortunately ye might have to add some hours of blood, sweat and tears before the magic happens!

What? Seriously? That can't be true
dublin runner said you can get an app that runs the marathon for you :pac:

Nicsx

Casey78 wrote: »

How much did ye pay?

I paid just under £20 for the two.

Nicsx

blockic wrote: »

Haha..you make them sound like some magic wand! Unfortunately ye might have to add some hours of blood, sweat and tears before the magic happens!

I'm dying to get back out running. The legs feel good, no residual aches or pains. I'll try 5 easy tomorrow & see how it goes & maybe start easing up the mileage then. The sooner I get back to some sort of structured programme the better- there's too much chocolate in the house since Halloween. It's taking my selfless parenting to a new level- sacrificing my waistline to save the kids' teeth. I definitely need to zip the lip & get the mileage back up!

Joleigh

Nicsx wrote: »

I'm dying to get back out running. The legs feel good, no residual aches or pains. I'll try 5 easy tomorrow & see how it goes & maybe start easing up the mileage then. The sooner I get back to some sort of structured programme the better- there's too much chocolate in the house since Halloween. It's taking my selfless parenting to a new level- sacrificing my waistline to save the kids' teeth. I definitely need to zip the lip & get the mileage back up!

I hear ya. I hit the wine on sat night, and the kids goodie bags. Dangerous! I need a plan to follow!

ciaranmac

gingersnap wrote: »

Got to take my new DCM top for a little run yesterday. Did 5k and it felt good to get back out again after the few days off.

I'm finding it hard not having a plan to work off and no goal/race to work to. I have to figure out where to go from here but I really enjoyed the long runs so I like the thought of doing a medium/long run every week (maybe 10-12 miles)

I've signed up to do a Chi running course. I carry a lot of tension in my shoulders when I run so I'm hoping this will help with my form.

I wore the finishers top when I jogged around the PP last Thursday. It felt good just to wear it, even though I was plodding at snail's pace and stopping every few minutes to take pictures.

I'm thinking of trying Chi Running as well - the physio in the tent after the marathon said my sore feet could be avoided by better running form, but he didn't go into specifics.

smashiner

Dubgal72 wrote: »

We shall be known as the veterans of '14, the year of the carnage

Yep, what a difference a week makes! We all got sunburnt last week in 17/18 degrees heat and high humidity and now its snorkel jackets and wooly gloves :rolleyes:.

Going to go for my first run this evening now that the legs have recovered, fingers crossed I can actually remember how to run....

If all goes well I am probably going to enter the 10K Movember run in the PP on the 15th, the medal (moustache) looks cool and the charity is a great one too, looks like a bit of laff too. I will probably fall out with the OH when I have to grow a 'Desperate Dan' stubble for a few days just to blend in......might have to get that black marker that I used for my DCM top a blast again .

BTW Sports Direct are selling Asics Runners 'Gel Pulse 4 and 5' (high arch)at bargain prices (around £43 STG /€55), bought myself a pair as I had the Pulse 4 a few years ago and they were pretty good and very comfortable for the smaller 8-10K runs, rather than shelling out lots for higher end runners....good investment methinks anyway.

MaggotBrain

Went out for a recovery 3 mile today, left knee felt a bit stiff. It feels a bit arthritic now and painful, hopefully it's not too serious and just needs more time recovering. Going out of my mind doing nothing!

skittles11

MaggotBrain wrote: »

Went out for a recovery 3 mile today, left knee felt a bit stiff. It feels a bit arthritic now and painful, hopefully it's not too serious and just needs more time recovering. Going out of my mind doing nothing!

I hear ya with the sore knee. I'm a bit impatient with the rest and recovery side of things so going to switch to cycling for a couple of weeks just so I feel like I'm keeping my fitness up.

I have an entry going for the Run in the Dark 10k if anyone fancies it. Too risky for me now.

aquinn

I did a fast, angry 6 miles and still wound up!

Ososlo

Guys, soon it'll be time to start up a new Graduates Thread. I think you'll be fine to carry on this thread for another week or two. Then someone can get the ball rolling for the next step.....

I'm hoping to get someone to mentor some of you for some winter training geared towards shorter distances, so leave that with me for a bit and we'll have someone once you start up the new thread.

In the meantime, there are a few good marathon recovery plans here for getting back into a bit of running in a structured way depending on your current level.
Keep all the running easy peasy for another week or so:)

aquinn

Sniff........

Ososlo

aquinn wrote: »

Sniff........

It'll be the very same thing, with a lot of the same people, just training towards something different:)
I know what you mean though.... sniff sniff:(

Casey78

I signed up for the Clontarf half tonight!

adrian522

Still haven't been out for a run, just been catching up on things like drinking beer and eating really unhealthy food.

I'm off on holidays tomorrow so it may be a while before any proper training gets done.

Hopefully there might be a few of us in the Phoenix Park for the Jungle Bells 5k though.

aquinn

Casey78 wrote:

I signed up for the Clontarf half tonight!

Well done. That was my first half and in 23.5 degrees and I loved it regardless. I actually checked the date of it half an hour ago but am away.