DCM 2014: Mentored Novices Thread

Tigerandahalf

KillianByrne wrote: »

I use a camelbak, dead handy, holds about 3l and has pockets for phones, gels, snacks, keys/wallets etc. There are cheaper non branded versions out there though. if you ever go North, or have friends in the UK or the continent try Decathlon, well worth a visit for that kind of stuff.

Decathlon Hydration Packs

Camelbaks are quite expensive but one of the cheaper brands would do fine. The one I mentioned above has great reviews and for the price is a great bargain. I wonder do any of the sports shops sell them?

Killian are they comfortable against your back with sweating etc?

laura_ac3

Just back from my first 3 miles. Legs felt ok, couple of hot spots that might need some attention with the foam roller/stretching this week but nothing major.

No Garmin so ran by feel. I felt a bit rusty, hopefully I've dusted off the cobwebs now and keep easing back into it.

KillianByrne

Tigerandahalf wrote: »

Camelbaks are quite expensive but one of the cheaper brands would do fine. The one I mentioned above has great reviews and for the price is a great bargain. I wonder do any of the sports shops sell them?

Killian are they comfortable against your back with sweating etc?

I didn't feel any different with one on, than without. I only wore it on long runs so was sweaty anyway, I don't think the pack made it any worse. The straps are well designed to carry the weight & mine has 2 clips across the chest to carry the weight when full of water. Important to fill then squeeze air out of the bladder or else as you drink, the water sloshes around and it is noises & a bit annoying. That's the only time I felt the weight.

If you're going on the trails & want to carry the water, some snack bars, gels, phone, keys and perhaps a rain jacket then I'd recommend one immediately. They are readily available in most outdoor stores and many running shops too. I was in Amphibian King in Galway during the week and they had some.

annapr

First recovery run this morning, nice and easy 7.7k in 50 mins along the seafront. Bright and breezy, blue skies.

A little stiff and slow, but have felt GREAT ever since.

Tempted to consider the Waterford Half but might be a bit ambitious.

Ososlo

annapr wrote: »

First recovery run this morning, nice and easy 7.7k in 50 mins along the seafront. Bright and breezy, blue skies.

A little stiff and slow, but have felt GREAT ever since.

Tempted to consider the Waterford Half but might be a bit ambitious.

Great to see you're bouncing back nicely annapr:D
I wouldn't rule out the Half. Lots of ex-novices last year and year before did it to great success with pbs all round so why don't you just see how you go over the next few weeks with the recovery and building the miles back up.
Great to meet you last Monday:D

Ososlo

Laois_Man wrote: »

What I want to know is. will our magnificent mentor be with us at the start line of DCM 2015?

Afraid not Laois_Man. Pretty sure my next marathon attempt will be 2016. Lots of half marathons for me next year:)
How are the legs and how is the body in general recovering?

AuldManKing

Great to see everyone still motivated and running.

The Marathon is a great event and it would be a shame if you let all that training & fitness go to waste by stopping!!
Hopefully most of you will stick around these parts and both pick up stuff as you go along but also contribute to others logs by asking questions, saying what works for you etc.
Getting involved is part of the fun here, so don't be a lurker on the training logs!!

Great to see some of you last Monday, sorry I was late in - I missed my bus by 5-6 seconds

Ososlo

AuldManKing wrote: »

Great to see everyone still motivated and running.

The Marathon is a great event and it would be a shame if you let all that training & fitness go to waste by stopping!!

initially I read that as 'shopping':D

Casey78

Bought a Garmin 610 off eBay today. Thought I deserved a treat after last Monday!
Had a Nike gps for past few years and while I liked it the Garmin has far more features that I want on it.

annapr

Ososlo wrote: »

Great to see you're bouncing back nicely annapr:D
I wouldn't rule out the Half. Lots of ex-novices last year and year before did it to great success with pbs all round so why don't you just see how you go over the next few weeks with the recovery and building the miles back up.
Great to meet you last Monday:D

Lovely to meet you in person too! Now I'm even more tempted by Waterford.

Dubgal72

Sorry, this is long but hopefully it will be of help to someone!

This time a week ago, it was all ahead of us! It's taken this long to write my race report due to wanting to sit on the experience for a few days and reflect...and my two kids :-)
I picked up my running shoes in January this year as my one year old baby seemed determined to leave a permanent reminder around my midriff and decided to run the Marathon as a medium term goal. The intervening months, as most will agree, have been an incredible journey. Our bodies have responded to increasing demands with maybe a bit of groaning but ultimately success last Monday, whether we reached targets or not.

At first, I pulled a random target of four hours, based on a 10k training jog back in April. Most people told me to just enjoy it and to 'get around the course'. Those who knew my previous running background (a lifetime ago) encouraged me...with a little gentle eye rolling and caution. Training went well, especially after I joined my local club in early August. (Those of you not in a club...?JOIN!). At this stage, I had been following a sub 3:45 Run Keeper training plan which recommended weekend double runs ex 6-8 miles Sat and 14-16 on the Sunday. The theory is that in this way, you simulate marathon fatigue in training.

As training continued to go well, with advice from a very trusted mentor and a few experienced club mates who were on course for 3:30, I started to view 3:30 as possible...with caveats.
For me to have achieved 3:30, every piece in the jigsaw puzzle that is the marathon would have had to have fallen into place on the day. The initial pace would have had to have been a comfortable 8:15, working down to a cruise speed of sub 8 and reassessing after the first 10 miles. (Pace judgement had been a factor in the months leading up but we felt I had it nailed and 8mm pace for longish runs seemed a walk in the park.)
The weather....psssht....we all know what happened there! (Many of us anyway). On the morning, a more experienced runner would have scaled back their expectations upon assessing the weather conditions. I remember feeling a mild sense of alarm when I saw the 17 degrees sign going through the Liberties. Hindsight is great, but I should have thrown my lot in with the 3:40 group....

(Just as an aside I would like to thank thank and thank again all the pacers last Monday, you do an invaluable, skilled job and mostly appear to be unappreciated. You are not! I know people complain when things go wrong and thank you Kurt Godel for your apology re the 3:30 group but that was never going to affect my race on Monday. You guys give up a race opportunity to help us achieve our goals so again, thank you!)

The Race
The first three miles did not feel comfortable, alarm bells started then. 24:12 by my watch and by the first water station I was emptying the bottle over my head. I had let the 3:30 group away at this stage by 30m or so, happy to just keep them in my sight. By five miles, I convinced myself I had found some sort of rhythm but still concerned that I was not cruising. Pace was bang on 8.03/4 each mile until 11 miles. I had arranged an electrolyte handover at Chapelizod between miles 10-11....:-( it never materialised and I was gutted, I really needed that drink. I passed the Lucozade station without grabbing anything in case it materialised but didn't get that electrolyte drink till halfway. I took a gel around mile 11.5/12 to try shake things up.

At the 10 mile mark, I decided to maintain pace as long as possible and that 3:30 was not going to be on the cards but that was fine, a perfectly acceptable Plan B was 3:40 and maybe even 3:45.

I can't remember exactly when the wheels came off. I passed the 30k in around 2:36 so all was not entirely 'lost' then but probably from mile 15, every mile was.....looooooong. I got another electrolyte in Terenure and my sister told me afterwards I didn't look comfortable. Each water station couldn't come quick enough and I remember actually picking a discarded bottle off the road I was so thirsty.

A 'moment' was when the 3:40 group passed me just before Milltown I think. They clipped past me with military precision...like a frickin Roman legion....guys I salute you but it brought me down! I attempted to rally and stay with them for a while but it wasn't to be.

I ran with a club mate for a short while who was also in distress, his hamstrings had gone. I ploughed on after a while but not long after mile 20 my bloody hip went, trapping a nerve all the way down to my foot. I had probably lost a lot of form at this stage and my body was protesting. I walked for a while and seriously considered a DNF....for 20 seconds. My club mate saw me again and seriously, between him and his cousin were the heroes of my day. As well as encouraging me gently at our snails pace, me in my own bubble of misery, they encouraged all around them and passed water etc.

I saw a good few supporters along the last few miles, including my four year old with her arms open for a hug at the bottom of Foster's. She had insisted on wearing my bag drop number pinned to her chest as her own race no. It broke my heart but I had to carry on as a stop would have likely caused a pile up :-(

The last few miles took forever with an odd yelp from me as my hip protested (sorry Ososlo, I had your voice in my head warning us not to run through an injury) but at last the end was at sight. An old school friend surprised me with about 1k to go with a ginormous yell from outside her house, it was a real lift.

All the misery of the last few miles disappeared over the last 500m. Dublin crowds are amazing, I am not ashamed to say that I welled up, I have never experienced anything like it!! Me and my clubmate hobbled in at 3:54, weary, stiff and sore but absolutely delighted that we had got in sub 4...our revised, on-the-hoof target.

Je suis une Marathoner!

This thread has been invaluable in my prep over the last few months. Thank you Ososlo for your wise, kind encouragement, time and experience. You have made a difference to the lives of so many people, you rock! Sorry I didn't make it to McGrattans, I really wanted to see the look on your face. Nice one Maggot Brain :-)

skittles11

First post marathon run yesterday. Nice easy 5 mile with the dog. Felt great, so good in fact that I thought a 5km at mp this morning was a good idea. It wasn't! Frozen peas on knee now.

Ososlo

Great report DubGal and congrats on your marathon:D I was looking forward to reading all about it and you didn't disappoint!
Tough day for most people last Monday but you'll have learned an awful lot from the experience for the next one! Hope you recover well.

Now down to business:D
You gotta start a log. I was reading in the other thread about your running past which is really interesting. We need more females like yourself logging.

And yes, I'd say my face was priceless! Can't thank you and the others enough:)

Dubgal72

Ososlo wrote: »

Great report DubGal and congrats on your marathon:D I was looking forward to reading all about it and you didn't disappoint!
Tough day for most people last Monday but you'll have learned an awful lot from the experience for the next one! Hope you recover well.

Now down to business:D
You gotta start a log. I was reading in the other thread about your running past which is really interesting. We need more females like yourself logging.

And yes, I'd say my face was priceless! Can't thank you and the others enough:)

Thanks again, I certainly feel I have earned/gained a wealth of experience from last Monday. I mentioned in the other thread that I was sure (pre-marathon) that I respected the distance....now I do, even more!


A log you say?! I'll have a think on it. I suppose it's good to put it out there, I'm all for sharing the knowledge but don't want to bore the sox off anyone either. I'll certainly check out some logs and see what goes on....

Ososlo

Dubgal72 wrote: »

Thanks again, I certainly feel I have earned/gained a wealth of experience from last Monday. I mentioned in the other thread that I was sure (pre-marathon) that I respected the distance....now I do, even more!


A log you say?! I'll have a think on it. I suppose it's good to put it out there, I'm all for sharing the knowledge but don't want to bore the sox off anyone either. I'll certainly check out some logs and see what goes on....

ha ha I bore the socks off them a few times a week and they don't seem to mind too much:D
Go for it!

Dubgal72

*goes to straight to find Ososlo's log* :-)

Laois_Man

Ososlo wrote: »

Afraid not Laois_Man. Pretty sure my next marathon attempt will be 2016. Lots of half marathons for me next year:)
How are the legs and how is the body in general recovering?

I'm surprised.

No running for me - complete rest for all of November best thing for me.

Joleigh

Ah this time last week......

MaggotBrain

Joleigh wrote: »

Ah this time last week......

11:15, I was on the Crumlin Rd dying a death

neilthefunkeone

Joleigh wrote: »

Ah this time last week......

On pace.. Oh how it changed!

smashiner

neilthefunkeone wrote: »

On pace.. Oh how it changed!

I was in the First Aid hut at the bottom of Roebuck Road with a massive blister feeling sorry for myself :rolleyes:. The next 10K or so were a painful blur but ended ok ish!

My left hamstring is still a bit achey, going to go for a small run on Wednesday evening and maybe a 5-8K slow run at the weekend.

Thinking of doing the '10K Mo Run' on the PP on the 15th, was 'looking' at the Clontarf HM on the 29th but might wuss out. Anyone else doing these runs?

Looking for new runners too, as my Gel Kayano's have been retired to 'grass cutting' and 'Painting' duties as I could see my socks through the tops of them after the DCM and they were knackered anyway....a bit like I was after it too....;);)

crisco10

This time last week, had just finished and was penguin walking over to the physio stand for a massage...:-)

Joleigh

I still haven't run! Or written my report. Still processing it all in my head. Feels like more than a week ago. I'm gonna do my taper in reverse this week, starting tonight. I feel like Mrs Blobby. Just aswell my scales has no battery.

pagep195

Now that the dust has settled, and we have had a chance to reflect on last weeks race, there is one thing that has been playing on my mind all week. The conventional wisdom is that the weekly LSR should be up to 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. I am no expert but even on a common sense level, this doesn't add up. A lot of people who prepared diligently and followed successful plans to the letter, failed to meet their target time and suffered badly over the last 5 miles.

Is it any wonder that this was the case when they had put in 19-20 miles running at a significantly faster pace than they had run on their LSRs and were now faced with an additional 4-6 miles that they had never run in training? Surely the purpose of our training is to condition our body to run at the pace we expect to run and to be able to comfortably maintain that for as long as possible? It is just a thought, and one that someone with more expertise than me might be able to shed some light on.

RayCun

Take a look at the training logs of the more experienced posters on here

ThePiedPiper ran 2:49:00 in Frankfurt, that's 6.27/mile, long runs are at 7.27 (he also did a lot of long runs with some MP miles)

theboyblunder ran 2:48 in Dublin, 6.25/mile, long runs at around 7 min miles (and he'd be the first to tell you he tends to run his long runs too fast)

KrustyClown's marathon pace was 5.55, his easy pace is over 7 minute miles

Easy pace of MP+10% is conventional wisdom for a reason...

crisco10

pagep195 wrote: »

Now that the dust has settled, and we have had a chance to reflect on last weeks race, there is one thing that has been playing on my mind all week. The conventional wisdom is that the weekly LSR should be up to 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. I am no expert but even on a common sense level, this doesn't add up. A lot of people who prepared diligently and followed successful plans to the letter, failed to meet their target time and suffered badly over the last 5 miles.

Is it any wonder that this was the case when they had put in 19-20 miles running at a significantly faster pace than they had run on their LSRs and were now faced with an additional 4-6 miles that they had never run in training? Surely the purpose of our training is to condition our body to run at the pace we expect to run and to be able to comfortably maintain that for as long as possible? It is just a thought, and one that someone with more expertise than me might be able to shed some light on.

I would be careful about using one races results as a barometer for a recognised training philosophy.

This is a question I got asked a lot in the build up by friends and family...and to be honest I couldn't answer it. I always just had to say "I trust the training, it seems to be what everyone does and it is generally accepted as working". Would be very interested to hear an "educated" reasoning for the LSR/Tempo run combo being considered so effective?

I should say it worked perfectly for me....so I'm not doubting it. But the scientist/engineer in me wants to know why/how it works.

AuldManKing

pagep195 wrote: »

Now that the dust has settled, and we have had a chance to reflect on last weeks race, there is one thing that has been playing on my mind all week. The conventional wisdom is that the weekly LSR should be up to 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. I am no expert but even on a common sense level, this doesn't add up. A lot of people who prepared diligently and followed successful plans to the letter, failed to meet their target time and suffered badly over the last 5 miles.

Is it any wonder that this was the case when they had put in 19-20 miles running at a significantly faster pace than they had run on their LSRs and were now faced with an additional 4-6 miles that they had never run in training? Surely the purpose of our training is to condition our body to run at the pace we expect to run and to be able to comfortably maintain that for as long as possible? It is just a thought, and one that someone with more expertise than me might be able to shed some light on.

A training plan for 12-16 weeks adds up to a lot of cumulative stress and necessary changes in your body that enable you run a marathon.

Running 20 milers at MP is something that would lead to strain, injury and burn out.

The plan that was being used is a well used plan and has tremendous success over the years.
If you look at all training plans, you will not find 1 that advocates running the majority of LSR's at MP.
All the conventional wisdom & plans have LSR's at 90 secs/2 mins slower than MP - this builds up leg strength over the weeks to enable you to train each and every week without risking injury in order to run the full Marathon at MP.

What we seen this year was high temps and high humidity that caused a lot of people to fatigue earlier than they would have - Both novices and experienced people alike - the training logs on Boards are testament to that.


Edit:
to add to this - a good training plan is not the only thing needed. Diet, mental strength and a large degree of luck are also required!!

yaboya1

pagep195 wrote: »

Now that the dust has settled, and we have had a chance to reflect on last weeks race, there is one thing that has been playing on my mind all week. The conventional wisdom is that the weekly LSR should be up to 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. I am no expert but even on a common sense level, this doesn't add up. A lot of people who prepared diligently and followed successful plans to the letter, failed to meet their target time and suffered badly over the last 5 miles.

Is it any wonder that this was the case when they had put in 19-20 miles running at a significantly faster pace than they had run on their LSRs and were now faced with an additional 4-6 miles that they had never run in training? Surely the purpose of our training is to condition our body to run at the pace we expect to run and to be able to comfortably maintain that for as long as possible? It is just a thought, and one that someone with more expertise than me might be able to shed some light on.

I used to have the same beliefs as you. Couldn't see the point of running slower in training, so ran my longer runs at PMP. I improved by 5 minutes over the course of three marathons.
After taking advice of posters on here, I slowed my Long Runs down and knocked 26 minutes off my pb. Since then I've knocked a further 9 minutes off following the same logic. It doesn't make sense to begin with, but the results don't lie.

Regarding last Monday, it was a bit of a freaky day. Some of the most experienced marathoners on here struggled throughout the race and definitely during the final 4-6 miles. It wasn't just the novice's that found it difficult.

menoscemo

pagep195 wrote: »

Now that the dust has settled, and we have had a chance to reflect on last weeks race, there is one thing that has been playing on my mind all week. The conventional wisdom is that the weekly LSR should be up to 90 seconds slower than marathon pace. I am no expert but even on a common sense level, this doesn't add up. A lot of people who prepared diligently and followed successful plans to the letter, failed to meet their target time and suffered badly over the last 5 miles.

Is it any wonder that this was the case when they had put in 19-20 miles running at a significantly faster pace than they had run on their LSRs and were now faced with an additional 4-6 miles that they had never run in training? Surely the purpose of our training is to condition our body to run at the pace we expect to run and to be able to comfortably maintain that for as long as possible? It is just a thought, and one that someone with more expertise than me might be able to shed some light on.

Yeah to be honest it's not the pace of long run that's the problem, it's the lack of other miles and speedwork that you find in a typical beginners progamme.

For example, when I ran 3:04 (7 min/mile) a year ago, my weekend Long runs were typically between 8-9 min/mile but I would have done something like 6 or 7 20+ milers.
Also during the week i would also be doing a speedier session at or significantly faster than planned Marathon pace. I think I peaked at these running up to about 15 miles at 6:50-6:55 pace (Marathon pace).

The problem as a novice is that your body just wouldn't cope with all the stress and Mileage that a more advanced plan would put on the body. So for a beginner I think the best startegy is the one most of you took, i.e. a novice plan.

Going forward I think you can look at a more advanced plan. Something like P&D advanced marathon (don't be put off by the 'advanced' bit, it's a very intermediate plan), should give you massive gains on your next marathon. However in the meantime keep up the running habit. The Basic P&D programme would require you to be running 30-40 miles per week regularly before startuing it. It's not something you can take on from scratch.

MaggotBrain

Science aside for a second, I see the LSR as a good safe way to get your legs used to moving for 3.5 hours without a huge risk of injury. Though even to do this 20+ mile LSR you need consistent slow miles built up progressively over a long period.

As far as science goes I have it in my mind that you are training your legs to more efficiently store and burn glycogen. This process is achieved best by running at an easy pace.

So on race day, now you have legs that can go for 3.5 hours and have improved glycogen burning abilities.

Next you just need a little bit of fortune on your side