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VW E-Golf launched

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    #62
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yeah the Aqua is the C in the U.S and the Auris hybrid in Europe.

    It would probably have better economy than the Prius because it's smaller.

    The Plug in prius is not available here but has a 12 mile ev range, though the Leaf would do 70-80 miles which would still do all my daily range with a 5-10 min fast charge. Meaning the Plug-in Prius is only really for people who do 12 miles a day or less, of course you can use the engine, but that defeats the purpose.


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    #63
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,439 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Nah, its smaller than the auris.

    Prius_c_WAS_2012_0649.JPG


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    #64
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Indeed !

    It's just amazes me that after 2 years 3 months that the E-Golf is the best they could come up with knowing that in 3 years Nissan will have a much better Leaf and Tesla the (affordable 200 mile EV)

    You religiously have tried to push the leaf on everyone here for the last couple of years claiming it is the best thing ever.
    Now vw release a golf which looks like a proper car and from the figures would appear to be better than the leaf and you are rubbishing it. It just sounds odd. Was the leaf not a bit more expensive when it was first released also?
    Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of the golf, ev or otherwise but I'm just surprised you are not pushing the ev cause even more widely now given that there is this model that without doubt on appearance alone will be acceptable to a much wider audience.


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    #65
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    Nah, its smaller than the auris.


    Hmm. Not sure then, thought the C was the Auris in Europe.


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    #66
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,439 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    Looks more like the verso s tbh. Its 1.5 too which would suggest yaris underpinnings.


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    #67
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Actually the more I think of it the more I think the Auris has the same 1.8 engine as the Prius III.


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mickdw wrote: »
    You religiously have tried to push the leaf on everyone here for the last couple of years claiming it is the best thing ever.
    Now vw release a golf which looks like a proper car and from the figures would appear to be better than the leaf and you are rubbishing it. It just sounds odd. Was the leaf not a bit more expensive when it was first released also?
    Don't get me wrong. I'm not a fan of the golf, ev or otherwise but I'm just surprised you are not pushing the ev cause even more widely now given that there is this model that without doubt on appearance alone will be acceptable to a much wider audience.

    I never claimed the Leaf was the best thing ever, but it is very good at what it does.

    The Golf looks better on paper due to the NEDC test which should be abolished.

    I doubt it will have much more range than the Leaf with the same KWh, certainly not 10K Euro's worth. According to the VW specs the Golf can do 100 miles on 20 kwh V 30 for the Leaf, though the 30 kwh for the leaf is the EPA test which is a lot more realistic than the farcical NEDC test. There is no way in hell the Golf EV is that much more efficient.

    I am a believer in the Leaf because it is the absolute best available affordable EV you can buy, the Golf is far too expensive for nothing much better than the leaf, despite the VW badge and the so called better looks, you'd have to be mental to pay 35K for it !


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    #69
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    I never claimed the Leaf was the best thing ever, but it is very good at what it does.

    The Golf looks better on paper due to the NEDC test which should be abolished.

    I doubt it will have much more range than the Leaf with the same KWh, certainly not 10K Euro's worth. According to the VW specs the Golf can do 100 miles on 20 kwh V 30 for the Leaf, though the 30 kwh for the leaf is the EPA test which is a lot more realistic than the farcical NEDC test. There is no way in hell the Golf EV is that much more efficient.

    I am a believer in the Leaf because it is the absolute best available affordable EV you can buy, the Golf is far too expensive for nothing much better than the leaf, despite the VW badge and the so called better looks, you'd have to be mental to pay 35K for it !

    But it's an ev on a major platform. Could very quickly bring cheaper ev to much wider numbers


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    #70
    noelf
    Registered Users Posts: 1,097 ✭✭✭noelf


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Indeed !

    It's just amazes me that after 2 years 3 months that the E-Golf is the best they could come up with knowing that in 3 years Nissan will have a much better Leaf and Tesla the (affordable 200 mile EV)

    Another Tesla has gone on fire in Canada wasnt even plugged in this is the third one ive heard off .


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    #71
    BMJD
    Registered Users Posts: 2,694 ✭✭✭BMJD


    now that the germans are on board, watch the goalposts move....

    "oh well I drive 8000 miles every day so obviously EVs are stupid" etc etc :p


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    #72
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    noelf wrote: »
    Another Tesla has gone on fire in Canada wasnt even plugged in this is the third one ive heard off .

    The first two fires were related to crashes, but you won't hear of all the ice fires that happen every day all over the world.

    We'll have to wait until the investigation is complete to find out what happened this one.

    In no incident was anyone hurt in the model s.


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    #73
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mickdw wrote: »
    But it's an ev on a major platform. Could very quickly bring cheaper ev to much wider numbers

    It could if it were priced similar to the leaf, maybe it would sell in large numbers and the cost come down as a result.

    The fact it's a VW isn't justification for such a large price difference. If it had a real 150 miles then I could justify it.

    I may be proven wrong but I can't see many people in Ireland who mainly buy poverty spec cars going out and spending 35 k on a golf.


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    #74
    Dr.Rieux
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭Dr.Rieux


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It could if it were priced similar to the leaf, maybe it would sell in large numbers and the cost come down as a result.

    The fact it's a VW isn't justification for such a large price difference. If it had a real 150 miles then I could justify it.

    I may be proven wrong but I can't see many people in Ireland who mainly buy poverty spec cars going out and spending 35 k on a golf.

    When the Leaf was launched it was around 35K also was it not?

    Edit: According to Wikipedia it was but had 5K subtracted as a government incentive "The Leaf was launched in Ireland in February 2011 at a price of €29,995 after a €5,000 government incentive is applied.[152][208] Buyers are exempted from the vehicle registration tax.[216] The first Leaf was delivered on February 21, 2011,[143] and cumulative sales reached 111 units through October 2012.[217]"


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    #75
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Dr.Rieux wrote: »
    When the Leaf was launched it was around 35K also was it not?

    Edit: According to Wikipedia it was but had 5K subtracted as a government incentive "The Leaf was launched in Ireland in February 2011 at a price of €29,995 after a €5,000 government incentive is applied.[152][208] Buyers are exempted from the vehicle registration tax.[216] The first Leaf was delivered on February 21, 2011,[143] and cumulative sales reached 111 units through October 2012.[217]"

    Yes it was just short of 30K at launch but battery costs have come down a good bit since 2010.

    And you just reminded me of the Grant, how did we miss this ? this means the Golf EV should be 30K or close, which is 2.5k more expensive than the highest spec Leaf and about 5K more then the mid spec SV trim Leaf. I'm not sure the trims and kit available in the Golf yet.

    As for VRT well unfortunately EV's are not exempt from VRT now, but they get a 5k rebate + 5K grant.


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    #76
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Yes it was just short of 30K at launch but battery costs have come down a good bit since 2010.

    And you just reminded me of the Grant, how did we miss this ? this means the Golf EV should be 30K or close, which is 2.5k more expensive than the highest spec Leaf and about 5K more then the mid spec SV trim Leaf. I'm not sure the trims and kit available in the Golf yet.

    As for VRT well unfortunately EV's are not exempt from VRT now, but they get a 5k rebate + 5K grant.

    I was presuming you were comparing like for like pricing. ... Grant deducted from price in both cases.
    If the Golf is suddenly reduced to 30k and if it compares favorably with the leaf in terms of charge and range, I genuinely believe Nissan leaf is finished here given vws ability to sell cars here and also vw bank and the fact that the ev golf looks like a normal car meaning not just eco minded people will buy them.


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    #77
    paulclan
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭paulclan


    Read the thread, very interesting!
    But consider:
    Stated ranges are for batteries operating within a specific temperature band.
    Possibly the range at -20C is much shorter than at +15C, a normal Irish Temperature.
    Now bring in Climate change, where previously temperate area may suffer extremes?
    The higher temperatures increase the efficiency of batteries,but colder ranges decrease the usable capacity.
    Petrol and Diesel models have much the same range in extremes of temperature.
    Finally, I asked a dealer bringing in small quadracycle type EV's how would the demisting work in say Norway or Sweden?
    He replied that a petrol furnace would be fitted in these markets!!!
    I have an electric bike and the range is much shorter (SLA batteries) in cold weather, i.e. it won't get back up the hill when -4C!


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    #78
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    paulclan wrote: »
    Read the thread, very interesting!
    But consider:
    Stated ranges are for batteries operating within a specific temperature band.
    Possibly the range at -20C is much shorter than at +15C, a normal Irish Temperature.
    Now bring in Climate change, where previously temperate area may suffer extremes?
    The higher temperatures increase the efficiency of batteries,but colder ranges decrease the usable capacity.
    Petrol and Diesel models have much the same range in extremes of temperature.
    Finally, I asked a dealer bringing in small quadracycle type EV's how would the demisting work in say Norway or Sweden?
    He replied that a petrol furnace would be fitted in these markets!!!
    I have an electric bike and the range is much shorter (SLA batteries) in cold weather, i.e. it won't get back up the hill when -4C!

    AFAIK the Golf and I3 batteries are thermally managed, at least I know they are cooled, I can't find out if they're heated, if they are then cold temps aren't much of an issue apart from the extra heater consumption.

    I've no problem climbing any kind of hill with my electric bike in any cold weather, perhaps it's time to dump the most stone age of batteries. Surely you're not comparing sla to lithium ?

    As regarding "climate change" the climate has always been changing, but this isn't the thread to discuss it.

    A lpg heater would make sense orat least the option until such time as range isn't an issue for some.


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    #79
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mickdw wrote: »
    I was presuming you were comparing like for like pricing. ... Grant deducted from price in both cases.
    If the Golf is suddenly reduced to 30k and if it compares favorably with the leaf in terms of charge and range, I genuinely believe Nissan leaf is finished here given vws ability to sell cars here and also vw bank and the fact that the ev golf looks like a normal car meaning not just eco minded people will buy them.

    No the grant didn't even enter my head oh well, mistakes happen.

    30 k is still a lot for a Golf considering most golf's sold in Ireland are the 1.6 tdi basic and comfort spec costing what, 22-24 k ? though the ev golf will most likely come with a lot of kit and has no gearbox too so no gear swapping to worry about.

    could you see people spending 6K more ? time will tell I guess but I would imagine people pay more for the I3 with 7.2 second 0-100 kph.

    I can't wait for the EPA test on the Golf !


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    #80
    colm_mcm
    Registered Users Posts: 73,439 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    1.6 TDI 90 base is €24750
    1.6 TDI Comfyline is €26850

    Add €2000 again if you want DSG


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    #81
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    colm_mcm wrote: »
    1.6 TDI 90 base is €24750
    1.6 TDI Comfyline is €26850

    Add €2000 again if you want DSG

    WOW, didn't realise the Golf was that expensive considering the low equipment levels. Though VRT is partly to blame.

    At least the Electric version comes with LED lights, auto climate control, remote start of heater and a/c.

    So DSG adds 2,000 and parking heater would cost another 1200 Euro's.

    OK so the Golf EV isn't looking that bad then ?

    Add to the equipment heated windscreen and radio/navigation.


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    #82
    paulclan
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭paulclan


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    AFAIK the Golf and I3 batteries are thermally managed, at least I know they are cooled, I can't find out if they're heated, if they are then cold temps aren't much of an issue apart from the extra heater consumption.

    I've no problem climbing any kind of hill with my electric bike in any cold weather, perhaps it's time to dump the most stone age of batteries. Surely you're not comparing sla to lithium ?

    As regarding "climate change" the climate has always been changing, but this isn't the thread to discuss it.

    A lpg heater would make sense orat least the option until such time as range isn't an issue for some.
    Yes I did make you think Mad Lad!
    So when you do have the information re thermal performance to hand you might post same here to elucidate those interested in EV's.No I did not wish to compare anything to anything,except to raise the overlooked issue (so far) of range versus ambient temperature!No other poster to my knowledge raised it either.
    This means I wish to raise the issue for kind consideration by OP's.
    If your idea that they might also be heated in low temperatures is in fact correct when you go to research this concept,there will as you say,be an energy loss to the driven wheels.
    I have another ebike with ni-cd but have nothad it out in minus C temperatures.
    Perhaps I will be surprised if Volkswagen make this facet of battery management hard to access?


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    #83
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,892 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    Skoda will be launching its sister car to the Golf, an electric Octavia in 2015/16.


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    #84
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    paulclan wrote: »
    Yes I did make you think Mad Lad!
    So when you do have the information re thermal performance to hand you might post same here to elucidate those interested in EV's.No I did not wish to compare anything to anything,except to raise the overlooked issue (so far) of range versus ambient temperature!No other poster to my knowledge raised it either.
    This means I wish to raise the issue for kind consideration by OP's.
    If your idea that they might also be heated in low temperatures is in fact correct when you go to research this concept,there will as you say,be an energy loss to the driven wheels.
    I have another ebike with ni-cd but have nothad it out in minus C temperatures.
    Perhaps I will be surprised if Volkswagen make this facet of battery management hard to access?

    The range issue regarding cold has been discussed here many times. Mostly in relation to the Leaf of course which now has a more efficient heat pump, but cold still effects the battery, though I'm told it's not so much of an issue while on the go as driving and regen warm it up and fast charging on the go warms it also.

    Yes there will be an efficiency loss heating the battery though it would be a very small increase. But if it gains 10+ extra miles I'm sure it would be very acceptable.

    If it took just 500 watts for two hours before charging to warm the battery enough ( figures guestimated ) then that would be just 1 kwh of electricity or 9 cent worth of electricity.


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    #85
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,334 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    WOW, didn't realise the Golf was that expensive considering the low equipment levels. Though VRT is partly to blame.

    At least the Electric version comes with LED lights, auto climate control, remote start of heater and a/c.

    So DSG adds 2,000 and parking heater would cost another 1200 Euro's.

    OK so the Golf EV isn't looking that bad then ?

    Add to the equipment heated windscreen and radio/navigation.

    The Golf is expensive imo when compared to the Passat. The is only a tiny price difference while getting much more car in the Passat. The Golf still manages to sell strongly so I don't really see the ev pricing as an issue at all.
    Pcp deals could mean very interesting pricing on the ev. Considering alot of the nice bits are standard on golf ev, it is possible vw will offer a higher gfv on the ev versus a diesel golf meaning a diesel golf with auto, nav etc would likely end up more expensive monthly but that is guesswork at this stage.
    I


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    #86
    paulclan
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭paulclan


    http://www.torquenews.com/1080/new-data-canada-shows-cold-weather-range-loss-nissan-leaf-and-chevrolet-volt

    Seems this topic is really an issue, and I notice the temperatures mentioned in the test are not very low!.Journeys might be somewhat truncated for those who do not factor in all the information?


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    #87
    paulclan
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭paulclan


    Perhaps the range issue was discussed here many times as you suggest Mad_Lad, but I came to this thread directly, read the lot of it, then commented as I did not see the issue discussed or determined.At least I now know that a smokescreen is being drawn over the issue and what should be a big factor in the purchase of an EV is being ignored by those who simply like shiny things that have little basis in ecology.


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    #88
    paulclan
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭paulclan


    Comments
    Tony Williams wrote on 2013, December 29 - 19:49 Permalink
    How exactly do you determine the range? Is this from the dash mounted "Distance To Empty" readout? Are drivers physically driving the cars to exhaustion? Some other method? Also, I have a little quibble. Lithium batteries don't lose energy above 25C / 77F degrees. In the LEAF, in particular because it's the only mass market battery EV without thermal management of the battery, the stored energy continues to rise. RULE OF THUMB We use 1% increase in stored energy per 4C / 8F above 20C / 70F, and a loss of energy of 1% per 2C / 4F below 20C / 70F. That means that a 20C / 70F battery in a like new condition in the LEAF will have about 21kWh of "usable" stored energy, while at 0C / 32F, it will have 10% less usable stored energy. Conversely, it will have 5% more stored usable energy at 40C / 110F. What confuses some folks is that temperature controlled cars (other than the LEAF) certainly have reduced range at hotter and colder temperatures merely because the temperature control is consuming energy to keep the battery closer to 20-25C (68F - 77F) The hotter the battery, the higher it's degradation and service life. The lower temperature batteries have lower energy density but far longer service lives. The intersection of the two lines of degradation referenced to temperature and stored energy also referenced to temperature just happen to intersect around 20C - 25C. That's why temperature controlled cars use this temperature.

    reply

    Aaron Turpen wrote on 2013, December 29 - 22:26 Permalink
    Ask the people who did the data collection. Range determination was likely from on-board range estimates from the car's computer. As for the rest, battery longevity certainly is an important part of all of this.

    reply

    John Goreham wrote on 2013, December 29 - 21:25 Permalink
    This is a great story. I plan to do one soon on Tesla Model S mileage and I will place a link to this as a general reference. Consumer Reports (who is a huge fan of the Tesla) has found that the range drops measurably in cold weather after a year with the car in New England.

    reply

    Aaron Turpen wrote on 2013, December 29 - 22:27 Permalink
    Every EV ever made has this issue. BMW found it with the Mini E as did Mitsubishi with the iMiEV. I'm sure even the Detroit winters affected the old Detroit Electrics.

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    danwat1234 wrote on 2013, December 30 - 01:54 Permalink
    "Only about 4,000 Chevrolet Volt data points were recorded, since they excluded trips taken when temperatures were below -4C (25F), since the Volt runs its combustion engine to augment battery thermal management and hence is not in EV-only mode." 2011 Volts and most 2012 Volts have no engine temperature setting, so it will cycle on and off at 25F or colder ambient temperatures. The 2013 and newer Volts and some 2012s by default are set at 35F but have a "very cold" option in which the engine will only cycle on and off at temperatures of 15F or colder. The ONLY reason why the engine does turn on when you still have charge in the battery is to keep the safety companies happy with the speed in which the windows have to defog at. The engine only helps with heat coming through the cabin vents, it does NOT heat the battery directly whatsoever, no engine coolant line or heat exchangers from the engine coolant goes into the battery pack. The battery pack has an 1800 watt resistive heater. So, there is no need for the engine to come on, let the seat warmers keep you warm and perhaps some light electric heat through the cabin vents. Also, you can DISABLE the engine in cold temperatures entirely by replacing the ambient temperature sensor with a fixed resistor so the car will always read a value above 35F all the time. It shouldn't screw up anything. There is a seperate air sensor for the engine system. Google "Dealer resetting the ERDTT to the lower value on 2012s and earlier", at the bottom post it has a link for a pdf showing instructions on how to do this. Replace sensor with a 1/2watt 15Kohm 5% tolerance resistor. User 'somms' of gm-volt figured this out. If you ever have to service the volt, swap the resistor for the sensor again so no warranty concerns.

    reply

    Aaron Turpen wrote on 2013, December 30 - 10:53 Permalink
    Again, this data represents NORMAL owners, not those who do modifications to maximize their range potential or hypermile every minute they're driving the car. Which is the point, since 99% of drivers, even in ICE vehicles, only rarely do those things as well. Further, most drivers aren't going to sit in a freezing car with just seat warmers and their mittens. Sorry, but that's not how 99% of drivers in cold weather are. Remember: these are REAL WORLD, not hypothetical "if you do all of this, then.." It's also very likely that a large number of the LEAFs in this data set don't have seat warmers as they weren't standard until this year. Also, the engine coming on does supply power to both the battery and the heat exchange for the batteries in the Volt, which is why they did not include the data.

    reply

    danwat1234 wrote on 2014, January 3 - 04:08 Permalink
    Normal users can do this, the sensor is accessable from the front grille. Take it out and replace it with a resistor. The bigger the resistor the colder the temperature is detected. Find what works and keep it in there. Done. With short trips this will help enormously on efficiency. The battery can supply electric heat through the vents, to the battery and to the seats if the car has that feature. This is not hypothetical, it has been proven. Engine will not come on due to temperature if it thinks it is warm outside, via the ambient temperature sensor signal.

    reply

    Aaron Turpen wrote on 2014, January 3 - 10:59 Permalink
    I think you missed my entire point. NORMAL USERS DO NOT MOD THEIR CARS, even to just add a resistor.

    reply

    Stephen Bieda wrote on 2013, December 30 - 09:08 Permalink
    I would like to see the range numbers for various ICE cars as well for a point of comparison. Weather effects efficiency of all vehicles.

    reply

    Aaron Turpen wrote on 2013, December 30 - 10:55 Permalink
    Outside of starting, which can be a problem thanks to how cold weather affects batteries, gasoline and natural gas engines generally fare better in cold weather. Diesel, not so much, but because of its high compression, once started it warms quickly. Colder air is usually better for ICE intake as it helps regulate temperatures and is usually more dense and has less moisture in it than warm air does. As with the EV, efficiency largely depends on the driver rather than the engine. Which was one of the biggest points made in this study.
    - See more at: http://www.torquenews.com/1080/new-data-canada-shows-cold-weather-range-loss-nissan-leaf-and-chevrolet-volt#sthash.Nrv2v5wO.dpuf


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    #89
    paulclan
    Registered Users Posts: 50 ✭✭paulclan


    Hi Again Mad_Lad,
    Battery heater on the Volt for an example 1800W so taking your two hour example (might be less time needed)
    1800 X 2 hours = 3600W so there's 3.6KW gone on battery management in cold weather.
    Comment?


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    #90
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    paulclan wrote: »
    Hi Again Mad_Lad,
    Battery heater on the Volt for an example 1800W so taking your two hour example (might be less time needed)
    1800 X 2 hours = 3600W so there's 3.6KW gone on battery management in cold weather.
    Comment?

    Well neither of us know exactly, but yeah if it consumes 1.8 kw it may indeed be on for less time I don't know, but either way even if it did consume that for 2 hrs that's 27 cent, not much to pay if it gains you 10-15 miles range.


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    #91
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,179 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    paulclan wrote: »
    Perhaps the range issue was discussed here many times as you suggest Mad_Lad, but I came to this thread directly, read the lot of it, then commented as I did not see the issue discussed or determined.At least I now know that a smokescreen is being drawn over the issue and what should be a big factor in the purchase of an EV is being ignored by those who simply like shiny things that have little basis in ecology.

    Well no offence but I didn't discuss range because it's not known yet how much it will effect the Golf, and it's been discussed to death on Leaf threads before. no point discussing leaf range in a Golf thread ?

    Just because the Leaf may get as low as 60 miles in the worst of Irish weather is no reflection on whether the Golf will.

    Same with battery longevity, just because one ev battery may last 150,000 to 70% capacity doesn't mean all ev's will.

    And heat in an Irish climate is a non issue regarding ev battery longevity.


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