Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled

PhoenixParker

osarusan wrote: »

How does this new system work for people currently living abroad with their spouses who require a visa?

I mean, how can they meet the financial criteria if they haven't even been living in Ireland?

It seems to be written from the position of dealing with applications from people whose spouses are already resident in Ireland.

It doesn't say anything about the E13k/year having to be in Ireland.
It also concerns family reunification, which suggests at least one person in the family is living in Ireland and the family is separated.
If you're both living abroad, then reunification isn't the issue at hand and I'm not sure that this policy document applies.

MadsL wrote: »

It is not exactly the same, the US does not ask to see evidence on earnings going back 3 years, Had my wife had to do this going back 3 years I would not have been admitted under these rules.

You don't have to go back 3 years, if you earned E40k last year, or E20k for the last two years, you'd meet the criteria.

osarusan

I emailed the Irish embassy in japan today about this, as myself (Irish born) and my Japanese wife (and our children) would be planning to return to Ireland in the next year or two. I raised the issue of the impact of the 'family reunification' document on our plans, and the response was:

From what you have told us, as far as we're aware, it's not a problem for you and it seems just a matter of your wife registering with the Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB).

This was all she had to do when we previously moved to and lived in Ireland.

I have emailed the GNIB asking the same question.

So, if not impacting cases like mine (which I truly hope to be the case), what kind of situations/relationships will it have an effect on?

keithclancy

Why do people looking at these rules instantly jump to the Disabled/The Gays/The Children ? ... nm .. anyways....

If you choose to get Married/Gay Married/Civil Partnership even in the EU you can have multiple problems anyway.

If you marry someone from outside the EEA it gets even more complicated.

These are just costs and inconveniences you have to accept as part of your choice.

IMO in Ireland everything is easy (Tax/Insurance/Healthcare/Registration) you don't really have to deal with much in the way of forms/processes.

You are only really exposed to something fairly complicated when it comes to Adoption, Immigration or Cross border taxation/Social Security issues.

These restrictions are in place because the state should not have to support a non EU citizen.

Even if you are an Irish passport holder and have been away for 2 years outside of the EU you will not be entitled to Social Security when you get back to Ireland.

A lot of Dutch people get married and live in Belgium for a while to bring in a non EEA partner.
A lot of Germans living over 150km from the Dutch border will get a job in the Netherlands for a while and get a knowledge migrant visa + 30% ruling and also a residence permit for their non EEA spouse.

It's hardly an Irish issue.

Besides, border protection in Ireland is a joke anyway, you can get a flight into the UK and get a bus over the border. I know of a few Canadians that have been living in Ireland for 25 years, have a PPSN number and jobs, no visas or stamp with INIS.

Sure you don't even have to register with the City Hall, unless you look foreign nobody will bother you.

conorhal

MadsL wrote: »

Let's see.

I work at a €38,950 p.a. job, go on holiday, fall in love.
She comes over on holiday, decided to stay and gets a job in her specialist field on a Visa.
I have a terrible accident, and cannot work.
We marry.
She is still working and supportive but her visa is coming to an end.
I do not qualify and she has to leave the country.

Perhaps I'm not understanding the law, but if she is here on a work visa for a specialist area, then she's already earning enough to support herself, her visa isn't dependent on marriage and after 5yrs working here, surely she can apply for residency? Any requirement for her to leave the country would have to involve her loosing her job.

The law seems reasonable to me. Sure, it's harsh if you're poor, but the scenario you outline seems a bit 'magic bullet theory' improbable, we can’t restructure the law in a manner that would allow thousands of people into the country to accommodate, a tiny number of people.
Also, what’s stopping that disabled person saying feck it and moving to the country his spouse is from?

Gatling

conorhal wrote: »

The law seems reasonable to me. Sure, it's harsh if you're poor,
Also, what’s stopping that disabled person saying feck it and moving to the country his spouse is from?

Sure this constantly referring to poor and disabled is moot in all of this ,
Maximum shock of the thread title is misleading?
Have you actually read the document in full all 70 pages,

How will any of this actually effect you if at all

biko

mango salsa wrote: »

Is there a lot of sham marriages?

Tbh, it's more common that anyone want to admit or think about.
I brought it up 3 years ago here

About 400 young women per year are being trafficked into Ireland to take part in sham marriages.
Practically sold by their countrymen to a stranger so he can live in Ireland.
Two years ago the Latvian authorities asked Ireland to take action to stop these marriages. So far not much has happened.

Pro Hoc Vice

biko wrote: »

Tbh, it's more common that anyone want to admit or think about.
I brought it up 3 years ago here

About 400 young women per year are being trafficked into Ireland to take part in sham marriages.
Practically sold by their countrymen to a stranger so he can live in Ireland.
Two years ago the Latvian authorities asked Ireland to take action to stop these marriages. So far not much has happened.

This thread is only about Irish citizens marrying non EU. While it is well documented that sham marriages take place between EU citizens and non EU. These Guidelines can not nor do they deal with that issue. There is little claims or evidence of Irish Citizens marrying non EU in paid for marriage, as there is little benefit to a non EU person in such cases.

enda1

This law does not stop you marrying anyone. It's just there to stop you co-locating your unemployed asses in Ireland on the dole. Threshold is too low really. The country doesn't need more scroungers.

conorhal

Gatling wrote: »

Sure this constantly referring to poor and disabled is moot in all of this ,
Maximum shock of the thread title is misleading?
Have you actually read the document in full all 70 pages,

How will any of this actually effect you if at all

No, I didn't notice it has hit 70 pages before I posted. My bad.

You are of course correct. I think that people forget that when it comes to marriage, love has nothing to do with it, marriage is a state backed and defined legal contract. Ultimately the state will define it in it's own (and hopefully in our) interests. The state's interests are primarilly economic.

PhoenixParker

conorhal wrote: »

Perhaps I'm not understanding the law, but if she is here on a work visa for a specialist area, then she's already earning enough to support herself, her visa isn't dependent on marriage and after 5yrs working here, surely she can apply for residency? Any requirement for her to leave the country would have to involve her loosing her job.

Also the document discusses family reunification. The family MadsL describes is already unified, so there's a rather straightforward case to argue that the recommendations in the family reunification policy don't apply.

MadsL

osarusan wrote: »

I emailed the Irish embassy in japan today about this, as myself (Irish born) and my Japanese wife (and our children) would be planning to return to Ireland in the next year or two. I raised the issue of the impact of the 'family reunification' document on our plans, and the response was:

From what you have told us, as far as we're aware, it's not a problem for you and it seems just a matter of your wife registering with the Garda National Immigration Bureau (GNIB).

This was all she had to do when we previously moved to and lived in Ireland.

I have emailed the GNIB asking the same question.

So, if not impacting cases like mine (which I truly hope to be the case), what kind of situations/relationships will it have an effect on?

There are two reasons why it will not affect you.

1. Your wife is a non-visa required national
2. Your children are eligible for Irish citizenship, therefore have a right of residency with a parent. Zambrano case.

However, if you had no kids and your wife required a visa to enter Ireland this would be a different story.

MadsL

PhoenixParker wrote: »

It doesn't say anything about the E13k/year having to be in Ireland.
It also concerns family reunification, which suggests at least one person in the family is living in Ireland and the family is separated.
If you're both living abroad, then reunification isn't the issue at hand and I'm not sure that this policy document applies.

This may be the case, but for example, I lived for years with my wife in Ireland, but due to job start dates, packing up and shipping she was months living in the US before I got there.

You don't have to go back 3 years, if you earned E40k last year, or E20k for the last two years, you'd meet the criteria.

Yes, if you are middle class. If you are moving to Ireland to seek a life there and have been earning local wages in the third world it is going to be a whole other ball game. Spouses of TEFL teachers in China for instance would be badly affected I would say...

MadsL

enda1 wrote: »

This law does not stop you marrying anyone. It's just there to stop you co-locating your unemployed asses in Ireland on the dole. Threshold is too low really. The country doesn't need more scroungers.

Ah yes, those scroungers on disability benefit *shakes fist*

Never been unemployed there Enda?

keithclancy

MadsL wrote: »

Ah yes, those scroungers on disability benefit *shakes fist*

Never been unemployed there Enda?

That makes about as much sense as saying someone is working and should pay for something and then someone else breaking in with

SO THE DISABLED SHOULD PAY, what about the Children and the old people that are working.

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

If I am disabled, and someone wants to marry me and support me by working, first they have be able to legally work.

Being on benefits should not limit the pool of people I can marry in my view.

As for the US, the requirement is a mere 125% of the poverty level. The poverty level in Ireland is €10,831 per adult per annum, so this equates I suppose. However Ireland has nothing like the immigration pressure of the US.

I am not sure why you are saying all disabled people aren't able to get a job or need to be supported by social welfare.

My uncle was disabled and was the bread winner. I have and do work with disabled people. I think it is a pretty insulting thing to suggest they need somebody to support them.

Why the foreign national can't apply for visa and have qualifications to be able to get one. So even more insulting there too.

So how small is the people being penalised by this perfectly reasonable application that applies to able bodied people in an equal manner.

MadsL

keithclancy wrote: »

That makes about as much sense as saying someone is working and should pay for something and then someone else breaking in with

SO THE DISABLED SHOULD PAY, what about the Children and the old people that are working.

What makes no sense?

Calling those in receipt of benefits "scoungers?" I agree.

enda1

MadsL wrote: »

Ah yes, those scroungers on disability benefit *shakes fist*

Never been unemployed there Enda?

No I've never been unemployed there MadsL.
Personalising arguments helps no one.

The Irish parliament is tasked with representing the wishes of the Irish people with the goal of passing constitutionally sound legislation agreed upon and in line with their mandate. The Irish people have never expressed a wish that there are easier routes and access to constrained labour market and dwindling reserves for the newlyweds of non-Europeans. Frankly if you can not prove that you can contribute in a positive fashion to the exchequer then you are not wanted. I and the Irish don't want nor need another mouth to feed.

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

I am not sure why you are saying all disabled people aren't able to get a job or need to be supported by social welfare.

My uncle was disabled and was the bread winner. I have and do work with disabled people. I think it is a pretty insulting thing to suggest they need somebody to support them.

It was never my intention to suggest that, please do not think that was my intention. However some disabled people are in fact unable to work and will be badly affected. The UK exempts such people from the financial requirement, Ireland now does not.

Why the foreign national can't apply for visa and have qualifications to be able to get one. So even more insulting there too.

Have you looked at the requirements to get a visa to work in Ireland. It is far from easy. you will need a salary of over €60,000 and generally work in IT, Healthcare, Engineering or Finance.

So how small is the people being penalised by this perfectly reasonable application that applies to able bodied people in an equal manner.

Do you think it perfectly reasonable that a disabled person in receipt of benefits cannot have their spouse from a non-visa exempt country live with them in Ireland, regardless of the numbers affected.

EDIT: Show me where the Irish people objected to the previous system which did not have this financial requirement.

MadsL

enda1 wrote: »

No I've never been unemployed there MadsL.
Personalising arguments helps no one.

If you were to lose your job and claim UA would you accept me calling you a scrounger. Throwing terms like scounger around IS personalising the argument.

The Irish parliament is tasked with representing the wishes of the Irish people with the goal of passing constitutionally sound legislation agreed upon and in line with their mandate. The Irish people have never expressed a wish that there are easier routes and access to constrained labour market and dwindling reserves for the newlyweds of non-Europeans. Frankly if you can not prove that you can contribute in a positive fashion to the exchequer then you are not wanted. I and the Irish don't want nor need another mouth to feed.

The point I am making is that spouses of Irish CITIZENS are basically being told don't apply unless you can prove you can support yourselves, but in the light of the Zambrano case if you show up with a kid, well, welcome home.

That is a nonsense position to be in.

As to your hyperbole about 'mouths to feed'. It is easy to put in place perfectly adequate safeguards to stop spouses claiming SW on arrival and having to fulfil qualification periods as do people fom the EU. As the guidelines cannot apply to those with the child of an Irish citizen in fact all this guideline is doing is encouraging another mouth to feed. The simplest advice now to anyone in this situation is "have a child". Absurd.

AngryHippie

enda1 wrote: »

No I've never been unemployed there MadsL.
Personalising arguments helps no one.

The Irish people have never expressed a wish that there are easier routes and access to constrained labour market and dwindling reserves for the newlyweds of non-Europeans. Frankly if you can not prove that you can contribute in a positive fashion to the exchequer then you are not wanted. I and the Irish don't want nor need another mouth to feed.

Please understand, that this discussion will affect people on a very personal level, so "personalising" will be a recurring problem in this thread.

On the second lot, The Irish people have never been asked. apart from all the buried subclauses in Nice and previous EU related referendums.

As for contributions to the exchequer, there are no shortage of Irish people resident in Ireland that would never in their lives (and I am not talking about disabled people) have contributed positively to the exchequer, nor society for that matter.
As for proof one way or the other, The way this is sat at the moment in the policy document (there is a lot of ground left to cover, with specifics and actual legislation not yet written to firm it all up) it seems that it is going to get a lot more difficult for people in my situation, (Non EEA spouse, No Children, Abroad for over 5 years) even though I was never in receipt of any benefit whatsoever (Aside from Childrens allowance for my parents), paid my taxes, and was a positive contributor to both society and the exchequer, wherever in the world I have lived.

On your last little footnote, "I and the Irish" ?
I'm trying very hard not to personalize here, but you are only entitled to put one I in that sentence, and I would thank you not to speak for several million citizens in exile:(

osarusan

MadsL wrote: »

There are two reasons why it will not affect you.

1. Your wife is a non-visa required national
2. Your children are eligible for Irish citizenship, therefore have a right of residency with a parent. Zambrano case.

However, if you had no kids and your wife required a visa to enter Ireland this would be a different story.

I asked about this earlier in the thread.

If the new system does not apply to nationalities from schedule one countries (as you listed to above), then angryHippy has nothing to worry about either.

AngryHippie

osarusan wrote: »

If

At this stage it doesn't clearly differentiate the schedules anywhere.

But it clearly states Non-EEA.

which applies to the majority of the world

osarusan

AngryHippie wrote: »

At this stage it doesn't clearly differentiate the schedules anywhere.

But it clearly states Non-EEA.

which applies to the majority of the world

in the 'family Reunification' document it doesn't. What's more it mentions 'visa-exempt' as a possibility, but provides no information as to what this means.

I still am not sure if the visa-exempt status applies to those nationals from schedule countries (as was the case before) of if this new system supercedes the scheduling system of visa exemption, rendering it obsolete.

I am still waiting for a reply from GNIB.

clairefontaine

enda1 wrote: »

No I've never been unemployed there MadsL.
Personalising arguments helps no one.

The Irish parliament is tasked with representing the wishes of the Irish people with the goal of passing constitutionally sound legislation agreed upon and in line with their mandate. The Irish people have never expressed a wish that there are easier routes and access to constrained labour market and dwindling reserves for the newlyweds of non-Europeans. Frankly if you can not prove that you can contribute in a positive fashion to the exchequer then you are not wanted. I and the Irish don't want nor need another mouth to feed.

Not all Irish people. Only Irish people living in Ireland.

biketard

AngryHippie wrote: »

At this stage it doesn't clearly differentiate the schedules anywhere.

But it clearly states Non-EEA.

which applies to the majority of the world

Right. I'm not seeing it either. The only difference that I can see it making is for landing in Ireland. Once you apply for a spouse visa, I don't think it would be any different if you were from a visa-required or a visa-exempt country.

Also, Zambrano, if I understand right (and I may have misunderstood) only works if the non-EEA person is the only parent of a child, or effectively the only parent. So, for example, if you (an Irish citizen) were married to a non-EEAer and had a kid, the govt could say that you could look after the kid yourself. Certainly I think that's how the British Govt is currently playing it.

B.A._Baracus

Uriel. wrote: »

I don't disagree with you. I am about to marry a non-Irish citizen ;-)

As I've said I favour making it difficult and having safeguards in place to deal with non genuine cases.

Is the alternative an open border? I'm talking generally here, not specifically in respect of the policy change in question.

I really just see that putting across strict conditions will deter the would be fraudsters from taking advantage of loop holes (E. G. The Chen case, though I would not describe the mother in that case necessarily as a fraudster)

Also, I do think there is a necessity to protect indigenous interests. Not of course to the point of blanket banning all immigrants or something mad like that, but rather to ensure careful management of our immigration.

... so pretty much you just said 'black' and 'white' or should I say it in other words "look, i dont disagree with you its just that I don't disagree with X Y Z"

Do you want to be a TD someday or something?

ferretone

Hmm, my hubby exactly fits the point they are cutting off here. He is a sparky, has been working in the same small company here for 7 years, his income is just over €40,000, but there have been several periods, each a few months, over the past few years, when there hasn't been enough work, so the company has cut back to 3-day weeks.

I've looked at the figures, and between what he was paying in taxes and what his employer was, the government was still in net gain during these times, over what was being given back to him in welfare cheques. And these were short times, so mostly they have been getting full tax from him.

However, if I were an immigrant, he would not be allowed to live with me due to this. It happens he's the one who's not Irish though. He's German, and his family moved here while he was still at school.

I'm frankly flabbergasted at the non-welcoming policies that have been introduced over here over the past decade and a half. I was living abroad when they had the referendum over not allowing babies born in Ireland to be Irish, for example, and just could not understand what these few dozen babies a year were taking from us. We have become a shocking nation of begrudgers, and I am frankly deeply ashamed.

AngryHippie

ferretone wrote: »

He's German

Germany is in the EEA, so he's grand, but this is getting to the point I was making, particularly if someone has been earning fairly well overseas, and is highly employable....

enda1

clairefontaine wrote: »

Not all Irish people. Only Irish people living in Ireland.

I don't live in Ireland. Irish people living abroad have no say in electing politicians to the Irish politicians so ultimately our opinion in moot.

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

It was never my intention to suggest that, please do not think that was my intention. However some disabled people are in fact unable to work and will be badly affected. The UK exempts such people from the financial requirement, Ireland now does not. .

Yes some, and of this some they then have to meet a nationality that happens to be from a country where they require a sponsorship visa and fall in love. So how big a portion of the population is this? It will be tiny

MadsL wrote: »

Have you looked at the requirements to get a visa to work in Ireland. It is far from easy. you will need a salary of over €60,000 and generally work in IT, Healthcare, Engineering or Finance..

No true. I know people earning less than that given Irish citizenship. Again how many people are going to not be in the right profession and fall in love with a disabled person who also happens to be unable to work? A small subset.

MadsL wrote: »

Do you think it perfectly reasonable that a disabled person in receipt of benefits cannot have their spouse from a non-visa exempt country live with them in Ireland, regardless of the numbers affected..

Yes in the exact same way an able bodied person living of the state should not be able to sponsor somebody. You have made it out like this is some special rule applied to disabled people which it isn't

MadsL wrote: »

EDIT: Show me where the Irish people objected to the previous system which did not have this financial requirement.

Show me a couple that this effects. Things are changed without any public pressure as a matter of normal administration and reasoning. I think the rule is completely valid. Not just as it is described but also the other more subtle reasoning of stopping people buying marriages of people who are poor which I suspect is the main objective of the law. This is something that has been reported and actually happened as opposed to your scenario that I have not heard of happening