Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled

MadsL

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

If you are Irish of course this doesn't matter.

Explain? If he is Irish and cannot prove his income, under these new guidelines he will have a devil of a time trying to get his wife into the country.

Why does this not matter?

AngryHippie

My point is that I am constitutionally entitled to cast a vote in referenda and election of public officials as an Irish citizen.

As I am currently not resident, I am unable to cast my vote without an expensive trip (time off work, $2k round-trip etc.) back to do so.

Decisions can be made, that will affect my future, in which I am not able to exercise my constitutionally given right to vote.

This policy is a clear example of this in practice. I did ask that it be discussed earlier this year, when someone on boards was participating in the constitutional convention or whatever it was called.

AngryHippie

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

So what's the point? That's not enough, we need to add Aussies?

If we are going to be disingenuous about it, why are we having this discussion.

How about you tell us how this will affect you

Frank Lee Midere

MadsL wrote: »

If you like facts you should type more clearly, yes there are obviously proportionally more foreign born living in Ireland but that's not what you said.

If there is no problem with that, what is the problem?

I dunno, what is the problem?

You said America was under more immigration pressure than Ireland.

I said. No. It isn't.

To quote moi.

As far as I know Ireland has more immigrants than the US and far more legal immigrants

As a percentage of course.

Which is what is now proven. Foreign born means immigrant. You have to get a PPS number. It excludes people who left and came back but might include some children of Irish emigrants. Who are still immigrants to here.

If you are going to enter into more idiot semantics don't. You won't win.

MadsL

There are few troubling paragraphs in the guidelines here:

It should also be noted that evidence of having maintained a dependant in a country that has a comparatively low level of per capita income is not of itself an indicator of capacity to do so in the event of that person being permitted to live in Ireland where costs are much higher.

So whilst you supported your Vietnamese (say) wife in Vietnam you could be refused entry for her on the basis you cannot support her in Leitrim.

A particular class of case that could arise is where a family residing abroad (most likely in the country of birth of most of its members) contains one minor child who is an Irish citizen. Clearly the Irish citizen child has a right to reside in the State. The parents do not and cannot claim personal rights of residence merely by dint of parentage. It is the child’s rights that are in question and the residence of the parents is considered with reference to the contribution their presence in the State would contribute to the child’s enjoyment of its rights as a citizen. The nature of the application therefore in this case would be for the admission to Ireland of one or more parent in the company of their minor child (or older child who suffers from a mental of physical disability that renders independent living impossible).

So if you have no money, go have a child. :rolleyes:

Gatling

AngryHippie wrote: »

If we are going to be disingenuous about it, why are we having this discussion.

How about you tell us how this will affect you

Thats been Asked a couple of times

This threads is just a load of what if ,what if ,what if ,

Facts are simple if you cant support yourself no job ,or on something like disability payments then your not capable of supporting a non national who may or may not want to come here to marry an unemployed or person on disability who can't physically or financially support another person ,

Sounds pretty common sense more than anything

AngryHippie

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I dunno, what is the problem?

You said America was under more immigration pressure than Ireland.

If you are going to enter into more idiot semantics don't. You won't win.

Wait a minute, you what ?

America has less immigration pressure than Ireland ?

are you confusing a % with an actual number

ie.

USA: 13% of 317,524,055 and counting, or 41,278,127
is greater than
IRL: 17% of 4,593,100 (end 2013 Est,) or 780,821

Whoops ?
is greater than

MadsL

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

I dunno, what is the problem?

You said America was under more immigration pressure than Ireland.

I said. No. It isn't.

To quote moi.

As far as I know Ireland has more immigrants than the US and far more legal immigrants

As a percentage of course.

Which is what is now proven. Foreign born means immigrant. You have to get a PPS number. It excludes people who left and came back but might include some children of Irish emigrants. Who are still immigrants to here.

If you are going to enter into more idiot semantics don't. You won't win.

The US is the top destination = greater immigration pressure.

http://peoplemov.in/#t_US

osarusan

AngryHippie wrote: »

My point is that I am constitutionally entitled to cast a vote in referenda and election of public officials as an Irish citizen.

As I am currently not resident, I am unable to cast my vote without an expensive trip (time off work, $2k round-trip etc.) back to do so.

Decisions can be made, that will affect my future, in which I am not able to exercise my constitutionally given right to vote.

This policy is a clear example of this in practice. I did ask that it be discussed earlier this year, when someone on boards was participating in the constitutional convention or whatever it was called.

I get that it is an important issue, but it doesn't really belong in a visa eligibility thread maybe?

MadsL

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

might include some children of Irish emigrants. Who are still immigrants to here.

Not if they were born in Ireland they are not.

Those stats also count a huge number of people who were born in Northern Ireland and now live in the Republic.

Pro Hoc Vice

MadsL wrote: »

I'm not sure that is the case, hence the discussion. I have personal experience of this situation so hold the dismissive tone.



Is it not the case the disabled are severely impacted by this? I think disabled rights are pretty affected by this guideline.

Guideline is the most important word. If a case of a disabled person or person with special needs arises it should be decided on the merits.

MadsL

infosys wrote: »

Guideline is the most important word. If a case of a disabled person or person with special needs arises it should be decided on the merits.

The guidelines never mention it.

AngryHippie

Gatling wrote: »

This threads is just a load of what if ,what if ,what if ,

Facts are simple if you cant support yourself no job ,or on something like disability payments then your not capable of supporting a non national who may or may not want to come here to marry an unemployed or person on disability who can't physically or financially support another person ,

It's not a what if for me. It is real. It is becoming a government policy.

I left the place because the employment prospects were nil.

I would like to come back and live for a while at some stage in the not too distant future, but in order to do so, I will have to make my wife jumps through another load of hoops?

And I don't get to have a say about this as an Irish citizen ?



How about all the generational dole bludgers I did support for the 10 years I was paying income tax in IRL ?
They get a say and I get the shaft ?

Fcuk this, Shatter's getting a letter. Along with the EU commissioner.

Pro Hoc Vice

osarusan wrote: »

According to citizensinformation.ie, there are a list of countries which are visa-exempt, as in, these foreign nationals do not need a visa to enter and stay in Ireland. Australia is in the list.

you can find it here under schedule 1: (scroll down to item 3)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2011/en/si/0146.html



Is this information no longer valid?

A visa exempt national does not need a visa to enter and stay for upto 90 days, they cannot work. All non EEA nationals need a permission to enter and reside for more than 90 days. A visa required national needs a visa before coming to ireland for even a short stay.

MadsL

AngryHippie wrote: »

And I don't get to have a say about this as an Irish citizen ?



How about all the generational dole bludgers I did support for the 10 years I was paying income tax in IRL ?
They get a say and I get the shaft ?

Fcuk this, Shatter's getting a letter. Along with the EU commissioner.

Except it appears no-one got a say in this except the mandarins at INIS, this was decided in meetings, not by democracy.

Pro Hoc Vice

MadsL wrote: »

The guidelines never mention it.

Because they are guidelines.

"The paper sets out how the system should generally deal with certain categories of people who are seeking residence in Ireland based on their relationship with some other person already entitled to be here. The ultimate decision will depend both on the immigration status of the person with an entitlement to reside in Ireland (the sponsor) and the closeness of the relationship with the family member. Family reunification will operate on a differentiated basis depending on these factors."

Guidelines do not have force of law, and all the rights of the applicants must be weighed and any decision must be proportionate to the legitimate aims of the state.

Gatling

AngryHippie wrote: »

It's not a what if for me. It is real. It is becoming a government policy.

I left the place because the employment prospects were nil.

I would like to come back and live for a while at some stage in the not too distant future, but in order to do so, I will have to make my wife jumps through another load of hoops?.

But isn't this about actual Irish residents who are solely been financially supported by the state not being in a situation where they can bring a non national here with no job or no financial support ,

For instance you wouldn't be entitled to social welfare as you wouldn't satisfiy habitual residence rules here so how could you then bring a non national here with the intension to marry if neither of you's could financially support each other

Pro Hoc Vice

MadsL wrote: »

Except it appears no-one got a say in this except the mandarins at INIS, this was decided in meetings, not by democracy.

Do you think guidelines should be decided by referendum. They are simply what they are, any person on less income than €13k a year will be able to put their case and if its good enough and they are refused they will have a good case for JR.

Pro Hoc Vice

Gatling wrote: »

But isn't this about actual Irish residents who are solely been financially supported by the state not being inna situation where they can bring a non national here with no job or no financial support ,

For instance you wouldn't be entitled to social welfare as you wouldn't satisfi habitual residence rules here so how could you then bring a non national here with the intension to marry if neither of you's could financially support each other

Getting married and moving to Ireland would in many cases satisfy HR.

sawdoubters

I am going to have to shut my harem

MadsL

infosys wrote: »

Do you think guidelines should be decided by referendum. They are simply what they are, any person on less income than €13k a year will be able to put their case and if its good enough and they are refused they will have a good case for JR.

I think a substantial change affecting the roughly 15% of the Irish population who emigrate each year and every other Irish citizen might be considered by elected representatives, yes.

And I guess having no assets is a good place to bring a JR from.

Pro Hoc Vice

MadsL wrote: »

I think a substantial change affecting the roughly 15% of the Irish population who emigrate each year and every other Irish citizen might be considered by elected representatives, yes.

And I guess having no assets is a good place to bring a JR from.

The guidelines are based largely on case law both Irish and European. They will of course reflect the upcoming immigration act. But all decisions must be made within the legislation and case law as it stands.

And yes the best person to take a JR is a person with no assets.

MadsL

infosys wrote: »

The guidelines are based largely on case law both Irish and European. They will of course reflect the upcoming immigration act. But all decisions must be made within the legislation and case law as it stands.

And yes the best person to take a JR is a person with no assets.

Ironic then, that their spouse is not allowed beside them.

AngryHippie

But isn't this about actual Irish residents who are solely been financially supported by the state not being in a situation where they can bring a non national here with no job or no financial support ,

For instance you wouldn't be entitled to social welfare as you wouldn't satisfiy habitual residence rules here so how could you then bring a non national here with the intension to marry if neither of you's could financially support each other

I'm not talking about going there with the intention to marry.

I am an Irish citizen, I am getting married to a non EEA national, I do plan on returning for a few years to live in Ireland, and perhaps have children there, but now I'm going to be in a position where my wife may not be entitled to work and live with me, or may have to go through a judicial review process to gain that right.

That in my book is fcuked up and wrong, it is a slap in the face for someone who tried to do the right thing (for myself and the country in general), it is a slap in the face for my wife (Irish govt. not extending the same fairness and clarity as the Oz govt. did to me) and it severely decreases the chances that my parents will have a chance to spend time with my children for any extended period of time.

That is not what if, but what is. It's real, and when the new immigration law comes in, I have my sh!te.

For a country that was all talk about gatherings and welcomes this time last year.......

osarusan

How does this new system work for people currently living abroad with their spouses who require a visa?

I mean, how can they meet the financial criteria if they haven't even been living in Ireland?

It seems to be written from the position of dealing with applications from people whose spouses are already resident in Ireland.

SpaceTime

AngryHippie wrote: »

I'm not talking about going there with the intention to marry.

I am an Irish citizen, I am getting married to a non EEA national, I do plan on returning for a few years to live in Ireland, and perhaps have children there, but now I'm going to be in a position where my wife may not be entitled to work and live with me, or may have to go through a judicial review process to gain that right.

That in my book is fcuked up and wrong, it is a slap in the face for someone who tried to do the right thing (for myself and the country in general), it is a slap in the face for my wife (Irish govt. not extending the same fairness and clarity as the Oz govt. did to me) and it severely decreases the chances that my parents will have a chance to spend time with my children for any extended period of time.

That is not what if, but what is. It's real, and when the new immigration law comes in, I have my sh!te.

For a country that was all talk about gatherings and welcomes this time last year.......

+10000

I have two family members in exactly that situation.

Getting a bit sick of this "oh you went abroad .. oh you married someone who isn't European ... now feck off with yourself" attitude the Irish Government and many posters on here have.

They are denying IRISH CITIZENS rights because they married someone who isn't from Europe.
That's institutional xenophobia in my book!

Basically, they're exiling Irish people who married "outside the family".

It's 100% wrong no matter what way you look at it and it effects many, many Irish people living abroad who may wish to return home or who may wish to get citizenship for their spouse and kids.

How many Irish people got US, Canadian, Australian and many other citizenships during Ireland's dark ages of poverty and unemployment in the 20th century and even recently by quite legitimately and honestly marrying a spouse from one of those countries?

We've no sense of reciprocity that's for sure!

It also has this vibe of implying that every marriage to a non-EU person is probably a sham, which is just not the case and is actually hugely insulting to a lot of people who are married to people from outside of the EU/EEA!

Fair enough if you want to check up on sham marriages, but doing it by limiting Irish citizens' rights is utterly ridiculous.

Irish Constitution wrote:

ARTICLE 41

1 1° The State recognises the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.

2° The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.

They seem to have forgotten the line about "except if you're married to some kind of 'non-national' - in which case, you're not a real family and this constitution does not apply"
Or is that just written in invisible ink or something?

It's an utterly ridiculous situation and I think one that we should be quite frankly ashamed of!

AngryHippie

SpaceTime wrote: »

+10000
They seem to have forgotten the line about "except if you're married to some kind of 'non-national' - in which case, you're not a real family and this constitution does not apply"
Or is that just written in invisible ink or something?

I might contact the Iona Institute and see if they can help protect my marriage :rolleyes::D

clairefontaine

Madsl,

It's exactly the same in the US. If you sponsor a green card holder, you have to show the authorities that you have a certain amount of money in your bank account.

There are ways around this though. Immigrant communities will have a chunk of money that gets deposited in a bank so that it shows up on a statement, and they can sponsor someone, and then they shift it to another account so that the next person can "prove" they have the amount needed and so forth, and it keeps revolving from person to person.

MadsL

clairefontaine wrote: »

Madsl,

It's exactly the same in the US. If you sponsor a green card holder, you have to show the authorities that you have a certain amount of money in your bank account.

There are ways around this though. Immigrant communities will have a chunk of money that gets deposited in a bank so that it shows up on a statement, and they can sponsor someone, and then they shift it to another account so that the next person can "prove" they have the amount needed and so forth, and it keeps revolving from person to person.

It is not exactly the same, the US does not ask to see evidence on earnings going back 3 years, Had my wife had to do this going back 3 years I would not have been admitted under these rules.

biketard

As someone married to a non-EEAer and currently living overseas (with a hope of returning home in the next few years), let me try to explain how worrisome changes like this are to us.

Even though many may see these changes as fair, any blanket rules like these can end up affecting perfectly legitimate marriages that the government has absolutely no moral right to interfere with.

I'm from the north so have been keeping a close eye on the situation in both the UK and Ireland regarding returning home with a family member The British Government sneaked through changes in 2012 that have royally shafted many, many of its citizens who had the "misfortune" to marry someone from outside the EEA. Currently unless you have £62,500 sitting in a bank account for 6 months, or have a job offer back home for over £18,600 IN ADVANCE OF COMING HOME, you have no chance of being allowed back in as a family unit. Visa fees are also heart-stoppingly high (like a thousand quid a time and you lose the money if they reject you--and they will for the most ridiculous reasons). For more stories about how this splits up perfectly legitimate marriages, just have a look here: http://britcits.blogspot.ie/

Now the Irish Govt is so far being a lot fairer than the British one (unless you're disabled), but any rethinking of immigration policy, especially when they start bringing salary requirements, etc, into it, are extremely worrying because it means a lot of couples/families that could very easily have supported themselves without any recourse to "the taxpayers' money" will be split up. Think about that for a moment--the government splits up your family because (in their opinion) you don't have enough money.