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Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled
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Wow this is certainly not good news.
How would you prove out of State earnings? In all my jobs abroad, i've had bank accounts in that country and my wages were paid there in local currency. I would have no way to prove my earnings.
I'm not married but it's scary to think that if my American OH and I did get married that I couldn't bring him to Ireland.
I worked in Ireland for over 10years and have never once been on the dole but they would automatically assume that if i returned i would be a burden?0 -
It's probably to stop sham marriage. There is a lot of eastern Europe women being non EU nationals in Ireland so they can get green cards here. Why should the tax payer have to support an individual of a sham marriage.
It's funny how some are against same sex marriages as they are an action on the institution of marriage. But Dont question shame marriages
What are you on about ??? Who said they are not questioning sham marriages ??
The problem here is that in trying to root out sham marriages, legitimate couples will be prevented from bringing their spouse to Ireland.
The Irish government don't have to support the non EU spouses of Irish citizens. I have never asked the Irish government to support my New Zealand partner. But now he won't be allowed into the country again to live with me ????
Sponsoring someone is not the same as supporting someone.
I emigrated to NZ because there were f all jobs in Ireland. Met my partner over here. Now if I try to move back with him- I have to separate from him ???
Makes no f***ing sense !!0 -
looking_around wrote: »How many people, in all fairness, meet others outside of Europe,and decide to marry without having funds to set them up? How many people are going to be so affected by this?
(btw, I personally know of 2 sham marriages.. this will help prevent the likes happening.)
I don't think Ireland is being unreasonable. Most countries have the similar laws.
Gosh there's enough people in Europe to choose from.
and if you happen, to find someone outside of the EU and they can't move here..well move there...or you know, stay long-distance for a little while longer, won't kill anyone.
On the disables comment. I'm pretty sure they'd have to come up with exemptions (if not now, when it actually comes up). It's bad enough that disabled are forced to be poor.
But, I bring up again.. There's enough people in Europe to find your "soulmate" from.
What an idiotic post. The biggest pile of h0rsesh1t I have read on this site.0 -
R.D. aka MR.D wrote: »How would you prove out of State earnings? In all my jobs abroad, i've had bank accounts in that country and my wages were paid there in local currency. I would have no way to prove my earnings.
Surely you've got invoices/payslips to back up your earnings outside the country?0 -
Surely you've got invoices/payslips to back up your earnings outside the country?
honestly, no.
i'm working as an esl teacher in Asia and it's just not really the norm to give payslips. they don't have your typical '6 monthly bank account statement'.
I had never even considered this an issue until now. I didn't think the Irish government would care what i was earning.
I did transfer chunks of cash to my irish account but not my entire earnings because i was spending that!
I'm going to work on keeping a better paper trail in any way that I can because I would like to return home someday and i would hate to think that i couldn't just because i'm in love with some one from a different country.0 -
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systemicrisk wrote: »I am 100% with MadsL on this one. Irish citizens should not be discriminated against because of their financial situation. I need to start paying more attention to what laws and regulations are being brought in as it seems unbelievable that the government can just bring something like this into effect with little public discourse.
It amazes me how prejudiced many people on here are against people who are unemployed. I normally would not wish it on anyone but I would like some of the people on here to experience it for a while and see how it feels. I am not and never have been unemployed.
Its nothing to do with prejudice its to do with having social programs.
In Ireland many things are subsidised and paid for by the tax payer. The hard truth is that people that are not able to financially support themselves are expecting their fellow tax payer to cover the cost of additional people in the social system. When I say social system I do not just mean dole, but many of the other things you use every day and take for granted.
It's nothing to do with prejudice, its simply a fiscal issue.
This would also be the case if the situation was reversed and you were moving to another country to be sponsored by a citizen of that state, or even a resident living in that state with the required permits.
My perspective is based on being a foreigner living in another country, you can't just turn up and expect a country to take care of you and you can't just expect them to change the rules to suit your situation.0 -
keithclancy wrote: »Its nothing to do with prejudice its to do with having social programs.
In Ireland many things are subsidised and paid for by the tax payer. The hard truth is that people that are not able to financially support themselves are expecting their fellow tax payer to cover the cost of additional people in the social system. When I say social system I do not just mean dole, but many of the other things you use every day and take for granted.
It's nothing to do with prejudice, its simply a fiscal issue.
This would also be the case if the situation was reversed and you were moving to another country to be sponsored by a citizen of that state, or even a resident living in that state with the required permits.
My perspective is based on being a foreigner living in another country, you can't just turn up and expect a country to take care of you and you can't just expect them to change the rules to suit your situation.
So the Irish government should change the system so that non EU citizens are not entitled to benefits for a certain amount if time after entering the country.
When I first moved to NZ I was entitled to nothing. No social welfare, no health care, no housing benefits and I knew it before moving over here. It made know to me in no uncertain terms by NZ immigration before the issue of my visa. I also had to prove that I had a certain amount in savings.
This is how you ensure that ppl entering the country as partners of Irish citizens dont end up being a burden on tge system and it will also reduce the numbers of those getting involved in sham marriages for monetary gain.
Putting a blanket ban on non EU spouses whose partners don't meet the criteria outlined is ridiculous.
More crowd pleasing, lazy, ill thought out crap !!!0 -
So the Irish government should change the system so that non EU citizens are not entitled to benefits for a certain amount if time after entering the country.
omg, why do people not get this - non-EUs are already not entitled to benefits in Ireland.
Can everyone who's commented about the State needing to protect taxpayers from supporting Non-EUs please take note of that?0 -
keithclancy wrote: »Its nothing to do with prejudice its to do with having social programs.
In Ireland many things are subsidised and paid for by the tax payer.
Please elaborate on the many things subsidized and paid for by the taxpayer that an immigrant would unduly burden by being present in the State?0 -
What way does it work if your non EU spouse is actually able to work and support themselves? Are they assuming that they wont? I'm not on 40k (yet, it will be at least 3 years) :mad:0
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So the Irish government should change the system so that non EU citizens are not entitled to benefits for a certain amount if time after entering the country.
It is already is that way.
Ireland has social systems that you use and avail of without choice.
By the way, I believe the pre-requisite is that you pay into the Social System for a period of time before you can avail of services, not just live there.0 -
Please elaborate on the many things subsidized and paid for by the taxpayer that an immigrant would unduly burden by being present in the State?
I'm waiting for this too...my non EU partner has never taken a penny off the state. She has paid plenty into it tho! All of her education was more expensive than her european counterparts for a start...0 -
omg, why do people not get this - non-EUs are already not entitled to benefits in Ireland.
Can everyone who's commented about the State needing to protect taxpayers from supporting Non-EUs please take note of that?
I was paid €124.00 extra in JSA for my non EU DE facto partner by the Department if Social Protection.
Omg.0 -
Please elaborate on the many things subsidized and paid for by the taxpayer that an immigrant would unduly burden by being present in the State?
A legal immigrant shouldn't burden the state, that's the point.
If you want there's a full list you can go through here.
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/surveysandmethodologies/documents/pdfdocs/regpublicsectorbodies.pdf0 -
keithclancy wrote: »A legal immigrant shouldn't burden the state, that's the point.
If you want there's a full list you can go through here.
http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/surveysandmethodologies/documents/pdfdocs/regpublicsectorbodies.pdf
That's a list of government bodies, not a list of specific social programs that an immigrant would use and through that use, constitute a burden on the state.
For example:
social welfare programs - cannot claim benefit entitlements, so no burden
Roads - has to pay car tax to use roads, as well as, tolls for certain roads - so no burden
Medical care - has to pay for all medical care and provide proof of private health insurance when registering with the state - so no burden
Cannot vote for any elections - no burden on any election bodies, constitutional groups, political parties that get separate funding.
Education - has to pay over and above what EU citizens pay for post-secondary, no burden.
Public safety - no burden on Gardai if law-abiding. If not law-abiding can be kicked out. No burden
Agriculture/environment inspections - Completed on basis of regular schedule, not per person present in the state. No burden.
If they have children in the state - as we're talking about Non-EU spouses of Irish citizens, those children are Irish citizens and therefore, legal immigrant is no extra burden.
What legal immigrants contribute - VAT on all purchases, landing fees, registration fees, bringing money in from abroad, medical fees, extra post-secondary fees. Travel fees when returning home to see family, travel fees when family comes here.0 -
That's a list of government bodies, not a list of specific social programs that an immigrant would use and through that use, constitute a burden on the state.
For example:
social welfare programs - cannot claim benefit entitlements, so no burden
Roads - has to pay car tax to use roads, as well as, tolls for certain roads - so no burden
Medical care - has to pay for all medical care and provide proof of private health insurance when registering with the state - so no burden
Cannot vote for any elections - no burden on any election bodies, constitutional groups, political parties that get separate funding.
Education - has to pay over and above what EU citizens pay for post-secondary, no burden.
Public safety - no burden on Gardai if law-abiding. If not law-abiding can be kicked out. No burden
Agriculture/environment inspections - Completed on basis of regular schedule, not per person present in the state. No burden.
If they have children in the state - as we're talking about Non-EU spouses of Irish citizens, those children are Irish citizens and therefore, legal immigrant is no extra burden.
What legal immigrants contribute - VAT on all purchases, landing fees, registration fees, bringing money in from abroad, medical fees, extra post-secondary fees. Travel fees when returning home to see family, travel fees when family comes here.
This, plus I know from our personal experience that I had to show payslips, bank statements etc when we applied for my OH's defacto visa. She had to take out health insurance before she was given a stamp 4 (God forbid she might get sick and cost the state something - we cant afford it with all the medical cards we give out, and while studying her masters and phd here, she paid far more than a european would have paid. So on this basis, I would repsectuflly suggest that in some cases, they contribute more...compared to say some sponger living in a council house with 5 kids and claiming this that and the other just because she is Irish.0 -
That's a list of government bodies, not a list of specific social programs that an immigrant would use and through that use, constitute a burden on the state.social welfare programs - cannot claim benefit entitlements, so no burden
Unemployment isn't usually a choice, if someone ends up living on the street that's the social cost.Roads - has to pay car tax to use roads, as well as, tolls for certain roads - so no burden
Roads are centrally funded and not paid for by Motor Tax, there is no such thing as car tax.Medical care - has to pay for all medical care and provide proof of private health insurance when registering with the state - so no burden
They have to treat you anyway, if you get sick you get sick, if you can't pay then the state picks up the bill anyway.Cannot vote for any elections - no burden on any election bodies, constitutional groups, political parties that get separate funding.
Don't see how that's relevant.Education - has to pay over and above what EU citizens pay for post-secondary, no burden.
They just pay the normal cost, normally this education is heavily subsidised by the tax payer.Public safety - no burden on Gardai if law-abiding. If not law-abiding can be kicked out. No burden
The Gardai still need to exist in sufficient numbers to police an area, law abiding or not they still are centrally funded by the tax payer.Agriculture/environment inspections - Completed on basis of regular schedule, not per person present in the state. No burden.
More people, more houses, more dwellings, its not that simple.What legal immigrants contribute - VAT on all purchases, landing fees, registration fees, bringing money in from abroad, medical fees, extra post-secondary fees. Travel fees when returning home to see family, travel fees when family comes here.
People that are living in other EU Countries that purchase Irish products from abroad from an Irish retailer pay VAT.
Post secondary fees means they are just paying what the education costs ? Normally post secondary fees are heavily subsidised by the Tax payer anyway.
Bringing money in from abroad ? I was pointing out the issue of people coming to Ireland that cannot support themselves or be supported by their sponsor in Ireland.
I'm all for someone that can contribute and support themselves, someone coming to Ireland that can't support themselves or their partner cannot support them shouldn't automatically be able to come to Ireland just because they got married.0 -
keithclancy wrote: »Unemployment isn't usually a choice, if someone ends up living on the street that's the social cost.
Roads are centrally funded and not paid for by Motor Tax, there is no such thing as car tax.
They have to treat you anyway, if you get sick you get sick, if you can't pay then the state picks up the bill anyway.
Don't see how that's relevant.
They just pay the normal cost, normally this education is heavily subsidised by the tax payer.
The Gardai still need to exist in sufficient numbers to police an area, law abiding or not they still are centrally funded by the tax payer.
More people, more houses, more dwellings, its not that simple.
People that are living in other EU Countries that purchase Irish products from abroad from an Irish retailer pay VAT.
Post secondary fees means they are just paying what the education costs ? Normally post secondary fees are heavily subsidised by the Tax payer anyway.
Bringing money in from abroad ? I was pointing out the issue of people coming to Ireland that cannot support themselves or be supported by their sponsor in Ireland.
I'm all for someone that can contribute and support themselves, someone coming to Ireland that can't support themselves or their partner cannot support them shouldn't automatically be able to come to Ireland just because they got married.
Post secondary fees are higher for non EU students.
Yes they have to treat you but you have to have medical insurance.
There is a plethora of Irish people that dont fit this description. Are you "all for" them just because they are Irish?0 -
OldNotWIse wrote: »Post secondary fees are higher for non EU students
Post secondary fees are just unsubsidised for non eu students.Yes they have to treat you but you have to have medical insurance.
You have to be treated regardless of your situation, getting money afterwards from you is a different situation.
The Dutch way for example is that all people that work EU or NON EU must pay health insurance, even when you are on unemployment benefit it must be used to pay your health insurance.There is a plethora of Irish people that dont fit this description. Are you "all for" them just because they are Irish?
I don't think that's a good situation either, also I don't think it really matters if they are Irish or not.0 -
keithclancy wrote: »Post secondary fees are just unsubsidised for non eu students.
You have to be treated regardless of your situation, getting money afterwards from you is a different situation.
The Dutch way for example is that all people that work EU or NON EU must pay health insurance, even when you are on unemployment benefit it must be used to pay your health insurance.
I don't think that's a good situation either, also I don't think it really matters if they are Irish or not.
They still pay more.
Also, if you have health insurance, its the insurer they get money from after, not the person. Insurance is a prerequisite - so your "they have to treat you anyway" which I assume means "even if you dont have insurance" is irrelevant - because if they dont have it then they are in the wrong.
My OH would rather work for minimum wage than sit at home and do nothing- you cant say the same for the thousands of Irish that were on the dole during the boom.0 -
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OldNotWIse wrote: »They still pay more.
So ? That's the cost ?Also, if you have health insurance, its the insurer they get money from after, not the person. Insurance is a prerequisite - so your "they have to treat you anyway" which I assume means "even if you dont have insurance" is irrelevant - because if they dont have it then they are in the wrong.
If you have no insurance you are treated anyway, they have a duty of care to treat you regardless of your financial situation.
If INIS control that somehow then its a seperate topic, but I know for most EU Countries its not controlled properly.My OH would rather work for minimum wage than sit at home and do nothing- you cant say the same for the thousands of Irish that were on the dole during the boom.
I would say there were/are a lot of EU Nationals in Ireland in that situation, but I wouldn't say they were all Irish.
I don't get what you trying to argue about, if you can pay your way then that's
This thread started with a change in the rules that people couldn't sponsor a partner if they didn't have the means to look after them.0 -
keithclancy wrote: »So ? That's the cost ?
If you have no insurance you are treated anyway, they have a duty of care to treat you regardless of your financial situation.
If INIS control that somehow then its a seperate topic, but I know for most EU Countries its not controlled properly.
I would say there were/are a lot of EU Nationals in Ireland in that situation, but I wouldn't say they were all Irish.
I don't get what you trying to argue about, if you can pay your way then that's
This thread started with a change in the rules that people couldn't sponsor a partner if they didn't have the means to look after them.
I KNOW that. My OH was not however, given her stamp 4 until she could prove that she had insurance. Result? If she didnt have insurance she would be here illegally - and its not illegal immigrants we are talking about, unless you want to lump her with same.
Regarding fees, in response to your "so what" I never said I had a problem with it, I am merely using it to show that they are not all spongers/drains on the state etc like some people here would like you to believe.0 -
OldNotWIse wrote: »I KNOW that. My OH was not however, given her stamp 4 until she could prove that she had insurance. Result? If she didnt have insurance she would be here illegally - and its not illegal immigrants we are talking about, unless you want to lump her with same.
Regarding fees, in response to your "so what" I never said I had a problem with it, I am merely using it to show that they are not all spongers/drains on the state etc like some people here would like you to believe.
The cost is the cost.
I live in the Netherlands and work in Germany, as a result I pay more than three times the amount than a person working in the the Netherlands pays even though I use the same Healthcare system they do.
Its just a cost you have to pay, comparing yourself to people in a different situation doesn't change it.
If I didn't pay Health Insurance at all there would be legal implications (e.g. I know of a few people which are EU Citizens that have been detained at Schiphol)
Why get upset about when its not really a choice is all I meant.
I never maintained that Legal Immigrants were a drain on the state, so was unsure why it was directed at me.0 -
I don't get the 40k income requirements, it makes absolutely no sense. You could have spent it all anyway.
Why not just say 40k family savings? Why does it have to be the Irish citizen only who earned that money?
I really feel this was a bad copy of UK legislation which was introduced to reduce immigration into the UK.
The thing is the UK is a fairly crowded island that wants to keep their population below 70 million and a large number of Asian immigrants from their colonies.
Ireland is what, 5 million in the whole island with EU leading emigration rates of it's native citizens and low non-EEA immigration rates.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/ireland-has-highest-net-emigration-level-in-europe-1.1601685
And now they are trying to PREVENT us, Irish people, coming back for no good reason. To strip us of our human rights for no good reason. Everytime they make it difficult for Irish citizens to return they are actually reducing economic growth in Ireland!
This is making me mad it's so stupid and racist at the same time!0 -
Ireland is what, 5 million in the whole island with EU leading emigration rates of it's native citizens and low non-EEA immigration rates. And now they are trying to PREVENT us, Irish people, coming back for no good reason. To strip us of our human rights for no good reason. Everytime they make it difficult for Irish citizens to return they are actually reducing economic growth in Ireland!
This is making me mad it's so stupid and racist at the same time!
I'm pretty sure its the same rule for an EU Citizen as it is for an Irish Citizen when in Ireland.
The Island as a whole has a population of around 6.3 million.
The Republic of Ireland has a population of almost 4.6 million.
I don't get where the human rights / racism thing is coming from though.0 -
keithclancy wrote: »This would also be the case if the situation was reversed and you were moving to another country to be sponsored by a citizen of that state, or even a resident living in that state with the required permits.
I'm in the US, sponsored by a citizen who is my spouse. Whilst there is a financial requirement, there is no backdating of it 3 years, and it is just income of 125% of the poverty level. I get no welfare benefits.My perspective is based on being a foreigner living in another country, you can't just turn up and expect a country to take care of you and you can't just expect them to change the rules to suit your situation.
1. No-one gets to 'turn up and expect a country to take care of you' there simply are no circumstances where that can happen.
2. The rules have been changed on Irish emigrants and Irish citizens - not them asking for the rules to be changed.0 -
The human rights is the right of an Irish father or Irish mother to live with their children in Ireland, if their husband or wife can't come in also then they are being blocked from returning to their homeland (Irish father/mother and Irish kids).
Is that difficult to understand? Some people will be effectively blocked from going back to their own homeland. The Irish children will be denied access to Irish education and cultural familiarity.
Apart from this you start discriminating towards your own citizens by their financial status.
One can say 'this is all rational now' but wait till they start doing it with Irish citizens who remained in Ireland. Will it make sense then?
Be careful of the society you wish for, because using finance to discriminate will create two tiered citizenship.
You have rights until your income drops below a certain level, then you effectively lose your rights, just because you left the country.
But then you have people on the dole for 20 years who have never worked a day in their lives. Should they have their rights of residency removed and be thrown out, aren't they a 'burden on the state'.
The racism thing is that Asians and Africans will be discriminated against disproportionately even if they have genuine marriages to EU citizens, higher educations, good earning prospects. Doesn't matter because it's not included in the immigration policy.0 -
keithclancy wrote: »I'm pretty sure its the same rule for an EU Citizen as it is for an Irish Citizen when in Ireland.
The Island as a whole has a population of around 6.3 million.
The Republic of Ireland has a population of almost 4.6 million.
I don't get where the human rights / racism thing is coming from though.
I'm pretty sure that EU migrants with a non EAA spouse in Ireland may not have to do this.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/ireland/non-eea-spouse-of-british-citizen-t148379.html
The same situation happens in reverse from the UK already. Non-EEA spouses of UK citizens move to Ireland for a few months and then qualify to move on to the UK due to EU's internal rights of movement regulations.0 -
I'm pretty sure that EU migrants with a non EAA spouse in Ireland may not have to do this.
http://www.immigrationboards.com/ireland/non-eea-spouse-of-british-citizen-t148379.html
The same situation happens in reverse from the UK already. Non-EEA spouses of UK citizens move to Ireland for a few months and then qualify to move on to the UK due to EU's internal rights of movement regulations.
For sure... but there is nothing stopping an Irish Citizen doing the same in as a resident in say Belgium and then moving to Ireland.0 -
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So I suppose they are anticipating that with so much emigration, it is inevitable that those emigrants will find spouses while they are abroad and not Ireland is going to make it harder and harder for them to return.
Is it hard to get Irish citizenship through marriage?0
This discussion has been closed.
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