Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled

MadsL

The new guidelines on Permission to reside in the State on the basis of marriage to an Irish national have been published.

Applicants will be required to meet the criteria as set out in the "Policy Document on Non-EEA Family Reunification" published on 31 December 2013.

17.2 An Irish citizen, in order to sponsor an immediate family member, must not have been totally or predominantly reliant on benefits from the Irish State for a continuous period in excess of 2 years immediately prior to the application and must over the three year period prior to application have earned a cumulative gross income over and above any State benefits of not less than €40k."

So if you were working a minimum wage and have been on the dole for the past year, you cannot live with your Non-EU spouse. Equally if you earned minimum wage for the last two years and spent a year on the dole your spouse is excluded.

Social welfare payments will not be reckonable as earnings for this purpose.

These new guidelines seem to exclude the poorest members of society, and the disabled from having choice in their marriages.

How is this even constitutional?

Article 41.3.1 wrote:

the State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded

Are you feeling me AH?

Fr_Dougal

Seems fair(not your dramatic title, but the law).

How could you sponsor someone if you don't have the means to support yourself? It's the same in most other countries, including the US.

MadsL

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

Seems fair(not your dramatic title, but the law).

How could you sponsor someone if you don't have the means to support yourself? It's the same in most other countries, including the US.

If I am disabled, and someone wants to marry me and support me by working, first they have be able to legally work.

Being on benefits should not limit the pool of people I can marry in my view.

As for the US, the requirement is a mere 125% of the poverty level. The poverty level in Ireland is €10,831 per adult per annum, so this equates I suppose. However Ireland has nothing like the immigration pressure of the US.

Boombastic

Sounds right

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

MadsL

Boombastic wrote: »

Sounds right

Let's see.

I work at a €38,950 p.a. job, go on holiday, fall in love.
She comes over on holiday, decided to stay and gets a job in her specialist field on a Visa.
I have a terrible accident, and cannot work.
We marry.
She is still working and supportive but her visa is coming to an end.
I do not qualify and she has to leave the country.

MadsL

Another scenario.

I work overseas for 2 years, I fall in love and marry.
I cannot (under these guidelines) bring my spouse home to Ireland.

Fr_Dougal

MadsL wrote: »

The poverty level in Ireland is €10,831 per adult per annum, so this equates I suppose.

I see...so we are no better, and no worse than most countries.

Nothing to see here, move along....

By the way, it was a cheap-shot to bring the disabled into this equation.

KyussBishop

And if someone is shít out of luck, due to being unemployed for 2 years straight? They can't just magically find a job - remember that we've got 28 people per job vacancy; in this economy, long term unemployment, is generally not the fault of the person who is unemployed - why should they (and their spouse) be penalized like this?

MadsL

Fr_Dougal wrote: »

I see...so we are no better, and no worse than most countries.

Nothing to see here, move along....

I'm not sure that is the case, hence the discussion. I have personal experience of this situation so hold the dismissive tone.

By the way, it was a cheap-shot to bring the disabled into this equation.

Is it not the case the disabled are severely impacted by this? I think disabled rights are pretty affected by this guideline.

Boombastic

MadsL wrote: »

Let's see.

I work at a €38,950 p.a. job, go on holiday, fall in love.
She comes over on holiday, decided to stay and gets a job in her specialist field on a Visa.
I have a terrible accident, and cannot work.
We marry.
She is still working and supportive but her visa is coming to an end.
I do not qualify and she has to leave the country.

Cumulative gross income
Continuously/ partially claiming benefits for 2years




Why do you wait until 2 years after the accident to apply for the visa?



Have you read hat you quoted in the OP?

Days 298

KyussBishop wrote: »

And if someone is shít out of luck, due to being unemployed for 2 years straight? They can't just magically find a job - remember that we've got 28 people per job vacancy; in this economy, long term unemployment, is generally not the fault of the person who is unemployed - why should they (and their spouse) be penalized like this?

So you want the state to support this persons husband/wife? How about no just like most countries.

MadsL

Boombastic wrote: »

Cumulative gross income
Continuously/ partially claiming benefits for 2years
Why do you wait until 2 years after the accident to apply for the visa?
Have you read hat you quoted in the OP?

The rules only changed in Dec 2013.
What if we only married last week?

Did you read this?

"Social welfare payments will not be reckonable as earnings for this purpose."

MadsL

Days 298 wrote: »

So you want the state to support this persons husband/wife? How about no just like most countries.

How about if the new immigrant is highly skilled and can work and take this person off benefits?

Boombastic

MadsL wrote: »

The rules only changed in Dec 2013.
What if we only married last week?

Did you read this?

"Social welfare payments will not be reckonable as earnings for this purpose."

Can you explain how someone 'earns' social welfare? Why would it be classed as earnings?


In answer to your other question, tough sh1t

KyussBishop

Days 298 wrote: »

So you want the state to support this persons husband/wife? How about no just like most countries.

A person with a job, can marry and bring over a wife, who then claims benefits - should they be penalized too?

A person with no job, who marries and who's partner has a job, can not sponsor them - that doesn't affect state support at all either, it's needlessly discriminating against someone because they are unemployed long-term.

Get off my lawn!

MadsL wrote: »

Another scenario.

I work overseas for 2 years, I fall in love and marry.
I cannot (under these guidelines) bring my spouse home to Ireland.

I don't see that in the piece that you quoted?

hfallada

It's probably to stop sham marriage. There is a lot of eastern Europe women being non EU nationals in Ireland so they can get green cards here. Why should the tax payer have to support an individual of a sham marriage.

It's funny how some are against same sex marriages as they are an action on the institution of marriage. But Dont question shame marriages

Annasopra

hfallada wrote: »

It's probably to stop sham marriage. There is a lot of eastern Europe women being non EU nationals in Ireland so they can get green cards here. Why should the tax payer have to support an individual of a sham marriage.

It's funny how some are against same sex marriages as they are an action on the institution of marriage. But Dont question shame marriages

Is there a lot of sham marriages?

suicide_circus

MadsL wrote: »

If I am disabled, and someone wants to marry me and support me by working, first they have be able to legally work.

Being on benefits should not limit the pool of people I can marry in my view.

As for the US, the requirement is a mere 125% of the poverty level. The poverty level in Ireland is €10,831 per adult per annum, so this equates I suppose. However Ireland has nothing like the immigration pressure of the US.

oh please :rolleyes:

no one is limiting your pool. we, the tax payer, just dont wanna pick up the tab.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

MadsL wrote: »

The rules only changed in Dec 2013.
What if we only married last week?

Did you read this?

"Social welfare payments will not be reckonable as earnings for this purpose."

Have you missed the point that it is 40k earning cumulatively over the past 3 years? Not average but cumulative! Seems more than reasonable.

MadsL

hfallada wrote: »

It's probably to stop sham marriage. There is a lot of eastern Europe women being non EU nationals in Ireland so they can get green cards here. Why should the tax payer have to support an individual of a sham marriage.

How many? Source for this? There is no such thing as a "Green Card" in Ireland. There is a Permission to Remain which can be revoked at the will of the Minister.

It's funny how some are against same sex marriages as they are an action on the institution of marriage. But Dont question shame marriages

What has that got to do with this? There are plenty of ways to detect sham marriages.


EDIT: INIS are in fact using the term "Green Card" - I stand corrected, this is new since my dealings with INIS.

MadsL

Steven Uninterested Orchestra wrote: »

Have you missed the point that it is 40k earning cumulatively over the past 3 years? Not average but cumulative! Seems more than reasonable.

And if I am unable to work as I have a mental illness or I am blind say?

suicide_circus

mango salsa wrote: »

Is there a lot of sham marriages?

don't have the stats but i know personally of three EE girls who married guys from Pakistan and Mauritius (i think) if order to get into Ireland to work. Went pear-shaped for one girl when your man went AWAL and now she is basically stuck married to him and can't marry her new partner.

it's not something people are open about obviously because it's illegal and the women are doing it for money

MadsL

suicide_circus wrote: »

oh please :rolleyes:

no one is limiting your pool. we, the tax payer, just dont wanna pick up the tab.

So automatically spouses are deemed leeches. Nice.

How about if you disbarred them from claiming benefits? Then no-one is picking up the tab.

MadsL

suicide_circus wrote: »

don't have the stats but i know personally of three EE girls who married guys from Pakistan and Mauritius (i think) if order to get into Ireland to work. Went pear-shaped for one girl when your man went AWAL and now she is basically stuck married to him and can't marry her new partner.

Have you reported them?

JustAddWater

MadsL wrote: »

And if I am unable to work as I have a mental illness or I am blind say?

Did you ever see Stevie Wonders wife?

Get off my lawn!

To be honest, this seems kind of backwards. What if the non-EU spouse is the one with better job prospects? I'm a non-EU citizen, and when I lived in Ireland briefly dated someone who was unemployed due to temporary medical disability. I, on the other hand, had a steady income. So when my visa expired, he couldn't sponsor me for a spousal visa, even though I would have met the income qualifications? Hm.

AndonHandon

MadsL wrote: »

Let's see.

I work at a €38,950 p.a. job, go on holiday, fall in love.
She comes over on holiday, decided to stay and gets a job in her specialist field on a Visa.
I have a terrible accident, and cannot work.
We marry.
She is still working and supportive but her visa is coming to an end.
I do not qualify and she has to leave the country.

MadsL wrote: »

Another scenario.

I work overseas for 2 years, I fall in love and marry.
I cannot (under these guidelines) bring my spouse home to Ireland.

Why do you have to fall in love before you marry?

suicide_circus

MadsL wrote: »

Have you reported them?

they're back in their respective homelands now and i don't know who the men are so, no

suicide_circus

MadsL wrote: »

How about if you disbarred them from claiming benefits? Then no-one is picking up the tab.

yeah that seems reasonable but i have no doubt you would start a thread about their inability to claim benefits it that were the case

Boombastic

Nothing stopping you going to live in non EU country with the love of your life, is there?

MadsL

suicide_circus wrote: »

yeah that seems reasonable but i have no doubt you would start a thread about their inability to claim benefits it that were the case

You mean you made an assumption.

suicide_circus

MadsL wrote: »

You mean you made an assumption.

yes

MadsL

suicide_circus wrote: »

they're back in their respective homelands now and i don't know who the men are so, no

How convenient.

MadsL

Boombastic wrote: »

Nothing stopping you going to live in non EU country with the love of your life, is there?

Dependant parent perhaps, family ties, child from a previous relationship in the country, healthcare services.

Lots of reasons why people cannot simply emigrate.

Royal Irish

Boombastic wrote: »

Can you explain how someone 'earns' social welfare? Why would it be classed as earnings?

Queuing up once a month to sign on is a pain so for that reason, its well earned.

GarIT

MadsL wrote: »

How about if the new immigrant is highly skilled and can work and take this person off benefits?

Then they would find it very easy to get a visa without being sponsored. This isn't saying people can't come in on their own merit, all it says is that if you are broke you can't say you will support someone through immigration.

If someone has been unemployed for two years they can't afford to support somebody. Why in your OP did you say a year, the quoted text clearly says a minimum of 2.

You would earn 13k gross per year on minimum wage. You'd need to be on part time or less and on minimum wage to not meet the criteria.

Temptamperu

AndonHandon wrote: »

Why do you have to fall in love before you marry?

Do you like it indian style where they force 2 people together over a few pigs and goats and hope to fall in love later?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

MadsL wrote: »

And if I am unable to work as I have a mental illness or I am blind say?

Ach look! As my dear old mother used to say "ye'd argue with your nails!"

You have a mental illness so you go and find the love of your life abroad.........

I'll leave you to this one I think. Life's too short for pointless arguments. Suffice to say I back the initiative fully and no amount of "yes but....what about if...." will change that.

Get off my lawn!

GarIT wrote: »

Then they would find it very easy to get a visa without being sponsored.

Erm, as a highly skilled non-EU immigrant with verifiable income who tried to extend my stay in Ireland, this was not my experience at all.

AndonHandon

Temptamperu wrote: »

Do you like it indian style where they force 2 people together over a few pigs and goats and hope to fall in love later?

That's my only hope at this point!

Plates

Who would want to marry a broke, unemployed waster in the first place other than another broke, unemployed waster?

Looks like a saving in social welfare to me so I support it.

MadsL

GarIT wrote: »

Then they would find it very easy to get a visa without being sponsored.

Possibly, it is getting harder and harder. They would need a company bringing them in over an EU person and being able to explain why.

This isn't saying people can't come in on their own merit, all it says is that if you are broke you can't say you will support someone through immigration.

The US asks you to exclude them from SS payments and only requires 125 income above the poverty level, not 3 years history. The level is set at the current time not what you earned in 2012.

If someone has been unemployed for two years they can't afford to support somebody. Why in your OP did you say a year, the quoted text clearly says a minimum of 2.

Read it again. There are two exclusions. 1. Not enough made income (€40k) in three years or 2. Last two years on SW.

You would earn 13k gross per year on minimum wage. You'd need to be on part time or less and on minimum wage to not meet the criteria.

Part-time workers cannot marry non-EU then? Tough huh.

MadsL

Steven Uninterested Orchestra wrote: »

Ach look! As my dear old mother used to say "ye'd argue with your nails!"

You have a mental illness so you go and find the love of your life abroad.........

I'll leave you to this one I think. Life's too short for pointless arguments. Suffice to say I back the initiative fully and no amount of "yes but....what about if...." will change that.

No bipolar people should be getting married to foreigners eh?

Boombastic

MadsL wrote: »

Possibly, it is getting harder and harder. They would need a company bringing them in over an EU person and being able to explain why.



The US asks you to exclude them from SS payments and only requires 125 income above the poverty level, not 3 years history. The level is set at the current time not what you earned in 2012.


Read it again. There are two exclusions. 1. Not enough made income (€40k) in three years or 2. Last two years on SW.



Part-time workers cannot marry non-EU then? Tough huh.

40k culumative over 3 years is an average of 13,333 / year

MadsL

Boombastic wrote: »

40k culumative over 3 years is an average of 13,333 / year

And?

suicide_circus

yes yes we're awful fascists here

GarIT

MadsL wrote: »

Possibly, it is getting harder and harder. They would need a company bringing them in over an EU person and being able to explain why.



The US asks you to exclude them from SS payments and only requires 125 income above the poverty level, not 3 years history. The level is set at the current time not what you earned in 2012.


Read it again. There are two exclusions. 1. Not enough made income (€40k) in three years or 2. Last two years on SW.



Part-time workers cannot marry non-EU then? Tough huh.

If someone doesn't meet the criteria to come here, they shouldn't, they are given a compromise by being able to be sponsored, all the government is asking is that the sponsor is financially stable.

I don't think the US policy on sponsors is good enough, If I was them I would tighten their policies, I'm happy with ours.

I read it properly the first time. You said if somebody has been on social welfare for a year they can't sponsor but they can, they need to be on social welfare for two years to be ruled out as a sponsor.

Part time minimum wage workers can marry non EU citizens, they just can't say that they are financially stable enough to support their spouse in moving into the country.

Boombastic

MadsL wrote: »

And?

Minimum wage of 8.65 works out at nearly 18,000 / year, so your op is a load of rabble rousing crap based on false statements

MadsL

suicide_circus wrote: »

yes yes we're awful fascists here

Where did i say that? I haven't had a great experience with GNIB in the past, but where did I make that claim?