Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled

Uriel.

B.A._Baracus wrote: »

... so pretty much you just said 'black' and 'white' or should I say it in other words "look, i dont disagree with you its just that I don't disagree with X Y Z"

Do you want to be a TD someday or something?

Huh? makes no sense.

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Yes some, and of this some they then have to meet a nationality that happens to be from a country where they require a sponsorship visa and fall in love. So how big a portion of the population is this? It will be tiny

I wasn't aware that treating people equitably required numbers. So what if the people involved are a small number. One is too many in my view.

No true. I know people earning less than that given Irish citizenship. Again how many people are going to not be in the right profession and fall in love with a disabled person who also happens to be unable to work? A small subset.

Look at the current requirements, it takes 5 years to get citizenship. The visa rules have changed. Again numbers are not what is important. I could equally ask how many people will the guidelines keep out as to circumvent them all you have to do is have a child entitled to Irish citizenship.

Yes in the exact same way an able bodied person living of the state should not be able to sponsor somebody. You have made it out like this is some special rule applied to disabled people which it isn't

It is an example of one subset of a group of certain people who will be affected by these guidelines through no fault of their own in circumstances they are unable to change. Does that seem fair?

Show me a couple that this effects. Things are changed without any public pressure as a matter of normal administration and reasoning. I think the rule is completely valid. Not just as it is described but also the other more subtle reasoning of stopping people buying marriages of people who are poor which I suspect is the main objective of the law. This is something that has been reported and actually happened as opposed to your scenario that I have not heard of happening

I already did, read my posts.

As you hearing of this happening, you do understand that these guidelines came in effect in January of this year, prior to that there was no financial requirement.

As you feel it applies to such a small group of people what do you suppose the guidelines actually are designed to prevent and why?

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

As you feel it applies to such a small group of people what do you suppose the guidelines actually are designed to prevent and why?

Pretty simple people can't afford to sponsor people and take care of them then they should not be allowed. It is not singling out disabled people it applies to everybody. Disabled people do not have to rely on state aid and you are basically saying they do and therefore being treated badly. That is simply not the case. There is no victimisation to the disabled here no matter how many times you say it. Same rule applies to all.

You are not prevented from using this particular way to get a visa you just have to qualify. If you don't go another route. If you can't qualify due to a lack of education go get it then you will. Why do they have to stay here either? I mean the person here could move to the other person's country.

Do you think it is a good idea to bring somebody into the country to live of our social welfare system that is designed to assist those who live here? That is what this rule is trying to prevent and I support it.

You want it to be different fine but stop making it out victimisation of disabled people because it isn't. It is straight forward you can't afford to sponsor somebody to come into Ireland while living off social welfare. That is it

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Pretty simple people can't afford to sponsor people and take care of them then they should not be allowed. It is not singling out disabled people it applies to everybody. Disabled people do not have to rely on state aid and you are basically saying they do and therefore being treated badly. That is simply not the case. There is no victimisation to the disabled here no matter how many times you say it. Same rule applies to all.

Why do the UK exclude those in receipt of disabilty benefit from the financial qualification part then?

You are not prevented from using this particular way to get a visa you just have to qualify. If you don't go another route.

Only other route is a job paying €60k. Or become a student and pay I think nearly €30k in fees (then the visa expires)

If you can't qualify due to a lack of education go get it then you will.

Which visa is that?

Why do they have to stay here either? I mean the person here could move to the other person's country.

If they have family in Ireland, are reliant on medical care in Ireland, have children in Ireland?

Do you think it is a good idea to bring somebody into the country to live of our social welfare system that is designed to assist those who live here? That is what this rule is trying to prevent and I support it.

You want it to be different fine but stop making it out victimisation of disabled people because it isn't.

The rules particularly affect disabled people in receipt of SW as they cannot change their circumstances.

It is straight forward you can't afford to sponsor somebody to come into Ireland while living off social welfare. That is it

What if they are able to get a well paid job??

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

Why do the UK exclude those in receipt of disabilty benefit from the financial qualification part then?

Only other route is a job paying €60k. Or become a student and pay I think nearly €30k in fees (then the visa expires)

Which visa is that?

If they have family in Ireland, are reliant on medical care in Ireland, have children in Ireland?

Do you think it is a good idea to bring somebody into the country to live of our social welfare system that is designed to assist those who live here? That is what this rule is trying to prevent and I support it.


The rules particularly affect disabled people in receipt of SW as they cannot change their circumstances.


What if they are able to get a well paid job??

Who cares what they do in the UK we have different rules. IF that is the case then move to the UK and apply there. You'll find they have some rules we don't agree with too.
I have told you 60k is not true and I know people who are in the process and don't earn that money. There are multiple ways to apply for visas.
So what if they have family here the other person probably has family too and is leaving them. If they need medical care then stay close to it.
IT DOES NOT PARTICULARLY EFFECT DISABLED PEOPLE. A disability does not stop you working there is even extra support to take a disabled person on to your company. I find it very insulting that you keep saying this when you are referring to my family and friends.
If they are able to get a well paying job they can get a visa for their skills so no problem.
You are making up most of your issues so I'll be clear. I agree with the law, it effects very very few people and is not discrimination everything else you are saying is invalid and pointless.

cherryghost

I'm married to a non-EU citizen, and currently going through the Naturisation through Marriage application. It's a god damn mess. My income is relatively good, and the application is deferred because she's currently unemployed. Right pain in the ass. Her GNIB and Argentine passport expire in August so that's more crap to deal with as we won't get approval by then.

I'm not affected by the new laws in place but I can certainly sympathize with the people that fall into that bracket.

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Who cares what they do in the UK we have different rules. IF that is the case then move to the UK and apply there. You'll find they have some rules we don't agree with too.

As ever, you miss the point. The UK made an exemption for what reason?

I have told you 60k is not true and I know people who are in the process and don't earn that money. There are multiple ways to apply for visas.

The guidelines changed last month so don't affect existing applications. The 60k IS true if you are outside these professions.
http://www.djei.ie/labour/workpermits/highlyskilledoccupationslist.htm

So what if they have family here the other person probably has family too and is leaving them.

Is that not up to the couple not the State?

If they need medical care then stay close to it.

That was exactly my point.

IT DOES NOT PARTICULARLY EFFECT DISABLED PEOPLE.

It particularly affects disabled people on disability benefit though doesn't it? Which is the point that I am making.

A disability does not stop you working there is even extra support to take a disabled person on to your company. I find it very insulting that you keep saying this when you are referring to my family and friends.

Stop being offended at something I am NOT saying. I am not saying that all disabled people cannot work, of course they can. However this legislation will affect disabled people on disability benefit or those working part-time earning less than €13k a year. Those people will not, under these guidelines, be permitted to have a spouse join them in Ireland if they cannot get a visa through other means. Does that strike you as fair?

If they are able to get a well paying job they can get a visa for their skills so no problem.

A job paying €58k perhaps? Read the link I posted. Unless it is in shortage area, yes, there will be a problem.

You are making up most of your issues so I'll be clear.

If you wished to be clear you should point out which issues I am 'making up'. I'd love to know.

I agree with the law, it effects very very few people

Ah well, discrimination against very few is OK then.

and is not discrimination everything else you are saying is invalid and pointless.

Stunning argument. Well done. Invalid and pointless. Well that told me.

MadsL

cherryghost wrote: »

I'm married to a non-EU citizen, and currently going through the Naturisation through Marriage application. It's a god damn mess. My income is relatively good, and the application is deferred because she's currently unemployed. Right pain in the ass. Her GNIB and Argentine passport expire in August so that's more crap to deal with as we won't get approval by then.

I'm not affected by the new laws in place but I can certainly sympathize with the people that fall into that bracket.

Thank you, the level of so-what-ery around here is breathtaking.

Best of luck with your application. I have many hours logged sitting at GNIB so I feel your pain.

Ush1

Crying discrimination against rules designed to discriminate.

Pro Hoc Vice

MadsL wrote: »

Why do the UK exclude those in receipt of disabilty benefit from the financial qualification part then?



Only other route is a job paying €60k. Or become a student and pay I think nearly €30k in fees (then the visa expires)


Which visa is that?



If they have family in Ireland, are reliant on medical care in Ireland, have children in Ireland?

Do you think it is a good idea to bring somebody into the country to live of our social welfare system that is designed to assist those who live here? That is what this rule is trying to prevent and I support it.



The rules particularly affect disabled people in receipt of SW as they cannot change their circumstances.



What if they are able to get a well paid job??

While it is correct that the UK excludes those in receipt of disability payments from the requirement to satisfy the income test, that income threshold is very high in the UK at just over £18,000 a year.

As I have said it will depend how the Department implement the new guidelines, it would be my strong belief that refusing a person with a disability, from having a spouse join him or her, would be open to serious challenge. But a lot will depend on how proportionate the decision is. On the one hand the state have a right to expect that immigrants do not receive public funds, but on the other they must weigh up the rights of the disabled person. Until there is actually a decision no one knows how this issue will play out.

clairefontaine

Madsl,

Respectfully countries can discriminate when they like and how they like. They all do it.

How about the fact that you need a spouse in the first place? You can't get a working visa ANYWHERE if you are single custodial parent because you are a financial liability.

If you want to complicate your life by marrying someone outside of your country's citizenship, than any leeway there for your spouse is a privaledge accompanied by the marriage itself. But be warned, the more and more people who are allowed to get married, the more and more co-habitation rights and laws established, the weaker and weaker this privaledge gets, and I have ZERO doubt that it will eventually dissolve entirely.

MadsL

clairefontaine wrote: »

Madsl,

Respectfully countries can discriminate when they like and how they like. They all do it.

Yes they do. Some like the UK have recognised the terrible possition it puts non-working disabled people in and have made exemptions. I am, for one, arguing Ireland should do likewise.

I also dislike conditions that incentive 'anchor babies' which these guidelines encourage.

How about the fact that you need a spouse in the first place? You can't get a working visa ANYWHERE if you are single custodial parent because you are a financial liability.

Wasn't aware of that. However, what is the damage there? These guidelines potentially keep spouse separated.

If you want to complicate your life by marrying someone outside of your country's citizenship,

On Valentine's Day I applaud your dedication to the concept of love...

than any leeway there for your spouse is a privaledge accompanied by the marriage itself. But be warned, the more and more people who are allowed to get married, the more and more co-habitation rights and laws established, the weaker and weaker this privaledge gets, and I have ZERO doubt that it will eventually dissolve entirely.

But..but...the privilege has been extended to non married couples and civil partnerships...if anything it has increased.

Pro Hoc Vice

clairefontaine wrote: »

Madsl,

Respectfully countries can discriminate when they like and how they like. They all do it.

How about the fact that you need a spouse in the first place? You can't get a working visa ANYWHERE if you are single custodial parent because you are a financial liability.

If you want to complicate your life by marrying someone outside of your country's citizenship, than any leeway there for your spouse is a privaledge accompanied by the marriage itself. But be warned, the more and more people who are allowed to get married, the more and more co-habitation rights and laws established, the weaker and weaker this privaledge gets, and I have ZERO doubt that it will eventually dissolve entirely.

Respectfully, most countries can not just discriminate. In Ireland we have a constitution, the rule of law, the European convention on human rights and the European Charter on Fundamental Rights. From the Convention,

"ARTICLE 14
Prohibition of discrimination
The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status."

Did I really read you right in saying "If you want to complicate your life by marrying someone outside of your country's citizenship" are you really saying a person should only marry a citizen of the same country as themselves. Are you also saying that by allowing a person to marry who they want and allowing them to live together that you are in some way wreaking marriage, really, please tell me I'm misunderstanding your comment.

By the way a person does not need to marry or even enter into a civil partnership to get a stamp 4 permission simply living together for 2 years in a relationship is enough.

clairefontaine

MadsL wrote: »

Wasn't aware of that. However, what is the damage there? These guidelines potentially keep spouse separated.

How do you mean?

MadsL wrote: »

On Valentine's Day I applaud your dedication to the concept of love...

I wouldn't let sentiment influence immigration policy.

MadsL wrote: »

But..but...the privilege has been extended to non married couples and civil partnerships...if anything it has increased.

Where?

Ray Palmer

MadsL wrote: »

Stunning argument. Well done. Invalid and pointless. Well that told me.

You have some serious issues understanding information. All you are doing is denying/ignoring what I am saying and repeating yourself.

It is not discrimination. Yes you are insulting people who are disabled because I just mentioned your arguments to my colleague here and he finds it insulting. You are saying they aren't able to work or cater for themselves in a blanket statement. It doesn't matter if you don't mean to cause offense the idea is offensive. Your whole argument is and also massively not true. The same rule applies to all so not discrimination because everybody is being treated the same. You can't twist that it just is. You can say it is unfair or allowance should be made but it still is not discrimination. If allowances were made then it could be said to be discriminatory

it does not matter in anyway what so ever what or why the UK make a different rule to us.
You do not need 60k unless you are in a particular field that is no use to this country.


I repeat
You are making up most of your issues so I'll be clear. I agree with the law, it effects very very few people and is not discrimination everything else you are saying is invalid and pointless.

Pro Hoc Vice

clairefontaine wrote: »

How do you mean?



I wouldn't let sentiment influence immigration policy.



Where?

http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/INIS/Pages/De%20Facto%20Relationships

A simple google search or wander over to http://www.inis.gov.ie

anothernight

As a foreigner in Ireland, and one that was once a non-EU citizen, I find it weird that some people genuinely believe they should be allowed into the country simply because they say so, without considering whether they can afford it at all.

Maybe Ireland should do what Spain does (iirc), where the family visa sponsor must either be in employment, or prove that he has enough of an income to maintain his or her family in such a way that no social welfare or public health services will be used at all. Same diff, but at least there's no mention of disability there. (Source: http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es/InformacionInteres/InformacionProcedimientos/CiudadanosComunitarios/hoja103/#requisitos)


EU issues aside, it is a country's prerogative to control its borders for the benefit of the country as a whole.

MadsL

Ray Palmer wrote: »

You have some serious issues understanding information. All you are doing is denying/ignoring what I am saying and repeating yourself.

Oh dear, not the first time I really have to spell things out to you. How about you listen to the circumstances I'm talking about rather than getting your knickers in a knot about my perceived slur towards disabled people.

It is not discrimination.

Are non-working disabled people discriminated against by the guidelines? yes or No?

Yes you are insulting people who are disabled because I just mentioned your arguments to my colleague here and he finds it insulting.

Oh well then. Ask him to decide who should win the next election whilst he's at it.
You paraphrased my comments to him and he was insulted. What a surprise.

You are saying they aren't able to work or cater for themselves in a blanket statement. It doesn't matter if you don't mean to cause offense the idea is offensive.

No, clearly I am not saying that. I'm pointing out that some poor people and some disabled people are unable to have spouses join them in Ireland due to these guidelines.

Your whole argument is and also massively not true.

The same rule applies to all so not discrimination because everybody is being treated the same. You can't twist that it just is. You can say it is unfair or allowance should be made but it still is not discrimination.

Someone unable to work through disability cannot change their situation, someone current NOT working but physically and mentally able for work CAN.

That's the crux of the point there, which is why the guidelines are discriminatory. Why do you think the UK have an exemption (really, answer the question, I have asked it twice)

If allowances were made then it could be said to be discriminatory

Is it discriminatory that disabled people get parking spaces?

it does not matter in anyway what so ever what or why the UK make a different rule to us.

I'm asking you to consider why they made an exemption? Why such evasion?

You do not need 60k unless you are in a particular field that is no use to this country.

That is not the reason. Please try and read the link I posted. It specifically excludes jobs not in the public interest, but states All occupation (unless not in the public interest or listed on the Ineligible Categories of Employment for Employment Permits) are eligible in all sectors with remuneration of €60,000 or higher.

I repeat

Yes, yes you do.

looking_around

How many people, in all fairness, meet others outside of Europe,and decide to marry without having funds to set them up? How many people are going to be so affected by this?
(btw, I personally know of 2 sham marriages.. this will help prevent the likes happening.)

I don't think Ireland is being unreasonable. Most countries have the similar laws.
Gosh there's enough people in Europe to choose from.

and if you happen, to find someone outside of the EU and they can't move here..well move there...or you know, stay long-distance for a little while longer, won't kill anyone.

On the disables comment. I'm pretty sure they'd have to come up with exemptions (if not now, when it actually comes up). It's bad enough that disabled are forced to be poor.

But, I bring up again.. There's enough people in Europe to find your "soulmate" from.

lightspeed

KyussBishop wrote: »

And if someone is shít out of luck, due to being unemployed for 2 years straight? They can't just magically find a job - remember that we've got 28 people per job vacancy; in this economy, long term unemployment, is generally not the fault of the person who is unemployed - why should they (and their spouse) be penalized like this?

I would agree with that to some degree but only where those unemployed people have actively been doing a course if they cant find work.

Anybody unemployed who is not in college or doing some course to upskill and find work deserves zero sympathy in any regard.

Yes there are people doing courses and still unemployed but there are plenty i know personally who have been unemployed for years, never done a course in anything and have never had their dole cut.

Absolute vermin

Notorioux

anothernight wrote: »

As a foreigner in Ireland, and one that was once a non-EU citizen, I find it weird that some people genuinely believe they should be allowed into the country simply because they say so, without considering whether they can afford it at all.

Maybe Ireland should do what Spain does (iirc), where the family visa sponsor must either be in employment, or prove that he has enough of an income to maintain his or her family in such a way that no social welfare or public health services will be used at all. Same diff, but at least there's no mention of disability there. (Source: http://extranjeros.empleo.gob.es/es/InformacionInteres/InformacionProcedimientos/CiudadanosComunitarios/hoja103/#requisitos)


EU issues aside, it is a country's prerogative to control its borders for the benefit of the country as a whole.

Foreigner here myself and I 100% agree!

MadsL

looking_around wrote: »

btw, I personally know of 2 sham marriages.. this will help prevent the likes happening.

1. No it will not. It is a financial measure and does not address sham marriages.
2. Have you reported these sham marriages?

MadsL

lightspeed wrote: »

I would agree with that to some degree but only where those unemployed people have actively been doing a course if they cant find work.

Anybody unemployed who is not in college or doing some course to upskill and find work deserves zero sympathy in any regard.

Yes there are people doing courses and still unemployed but there are plenty i know personally who have been unemployed for years, never done a course in anything and have never had their dole cut.

Absolute vermin

Students may not marry a non-EEA spouse then, and have them in Ireland? Even if they are doing a Phd?

MadsL

anothernight wrote: »

As a foreigner in Ireland, and one that was once a non-EU citizen, I find it weird that some people genuinely believe they should be allowed into the country simply because they say so, without considering whether they can afford it at all.

If they are not drawing State benefits, what is the issue?

MRnotlob606

communist Ireland

anothernight

MadsL wrote: »

If they are not drawing State benefits, what is the issue?

No issue at all. Which is why sponsored visas shouldn't be handed out without proving that the sponsor has financial means to provide for the person they're bringing over. 40k over the last three years is extremely generous for this purpose. If the sponsor is on state benefits (disability, dole or whatever), how do you propose that they don't draw on state benefits? Er....

Besides, some benefits increase if the recipient has a spouse. If they were to bring over a spouse, what exactly do you think would happen?


Bear in mind that those are guidelines for reunification, so assuming reunification works the same in Ireland as in other countries (I honestly don't know), then these guidelines only kick in if the European spouse is in Ireland, and the non-EU spouse is still abroad.

MadsL

anothernight wrote: »

No issue at all. Which is why sponsored visas shouldn't be handed out without proving that the sponsor has financial means to provide for the person they're bringing over. 40k over the last three years is extremely generous for this purpose. If the sponsor is on state benefits (disability, dole or whatever), how do you propose that they don't draw on state benefits? Er....

The spouse would be prevented from drawing benefits. Keep up.

Besides, some benefits increase if the recipient has a spouse. If they were to bring over a spouse, what exactly do you think would happen?

Their PPS would be marked accordingly preventing the increase.

Bear in mind that those are guidelines for reunification, so assuming reunification works the same in Ireland as in other countries (I honestly don't know), then these guidelines only kick in if the European spouse is in Ireland, and the non-EU spouse is still abroad.

They also don't apply in the case of a child.

So go figure out if the nationality of the spouse is relevant, as the Irish state seems to now operate a two tier system in this regard.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

MadsL wrote: »

The spouse would be prevented from drawing benefits. Keep up.


Their PPS would be marked accordingly preventing the increase.



They also don't apply in the case of a child.

So go figure out if the nationality of the spouse is relevant, as the Irish state seems to now operate a two tier system in this regard.

Why not just leave that to those of us who live here to worry about and you don't annoy your pretty little head about it.

MadsL

Steven Uninterested Orchestra wrote: »

Why not just leave that to those of us who live here to worry about and you don't annoy your pretty little head about it.

Idiotic argument. I assume you have an opinion on events in Syria or Russia or Cork, or do you not care what happens outside your own front door?

anothernight

MadsL wrote: »

The spouse would be prevented from drawing benefits. Keep up.

Their PPS would be marked accordingly preventing the increase.

Ever moved to a country where you don't speak the language? Try getting a job then. In that case, the means test for maintenance would make sense. Except if the sponsor doesn't have the means to maintain the non-EU spouse, I'm not sure how they'd manage if they can't draw benefits themselves (I wouldn't know about that, as I've never drawn benefits anywhere).

They also require a higher income in the case of bringing in an elderly relation: "The financial thresholds will rise significantly where the application is made in respect of a dependent elderly parent."
Doesn't that make you think that they just want to make sure that the sponsor and sponsored won't fall into financial hardship?

MadsL wrote: »

They also don't apply in the case of a child.

So go figure out if the nationality of the spouse is relevant, as the Irish state seems to now operate a two tier system in this regard.

Yeah, the child thing is kinda strange. But I haven't really looked into it so I've nothing to say about it.

In the case of Spain, they require a higher income from an EU person than from a Spanish person. They don't say anything about the other spouse's nationality.



As it's only guidelines, I very much doubt all applications will be treated the same. Usually visa applications are considered on a case-by-case basis, which is why they can often be so expensive and take a lot of time to obtain.