Don't marry a Non-EU Spouse if you are poor or disabled

HellboundIRL

MadsL wrote: »

Are you working?

I expect they will simply renew an existing stamp. Has she applied for naturalisation?

No, been unemployed for almost a year

She hasn't, can't afford it tbh but this is scaring the shíte out of me now :eek:

MadsL

HellboundIRL wrote: »

No, been unemployed for almost a year

She hasn't, can't afford it tbh but this is scaring the shíte out of me now :eek:

I don't mean it to. Might be worth finding someone to have a chat with on it though, the guidelines are vague enough although they do say...

This document deals with the question of entry to the State and to the initial decision in family reunification. It does not address issues of renewal of permission other than in general terms.

I suspect they will renew therefore.

seb65

Uriel. wrote: »

I support tough conditions on the long term residence of non-EU citizens in ireland.

If that means a disabled person can't be in marriage to such a person in ireland so be it. They could perhaps seek to reside in their partner's country or a third country

Sorry, what tough conditions do you want to impose on me, a non-eu national married to an Irish citizen, one who's brought a tens of thousands into the state since arrival a few years ago? One who's well-educated, highly skilled and abides by the law?

What else exactly must I give to this country to prove I am worthy to live with my husband and future children in their country of birth?

Dord

MadsL wrote: »

You acknowledge you read the OP incorrectly then I take it. If two people earn minimum age (Irish citizen plus non-EU spouse) They jointly will make €36k a year, way above your threshold. They could be denied SW payments until they make up the stamps like anyone else and I would have no problem with that.

Weighing in a little late here, but I'll go ahead.

The reckonable income is that of the sponsor only. They do not recognise the income of the applicant(s). The sponsor has full responsibility and should be able to carry the weight on their income/salary alone. The guideline they gave (40K cumulative over 3 years) is extremely low.

However, they do go on to mention recommended gross incomes and that for a couple with no children is 30K. That seems about right. As mentioned previously, 25K is probably the minimum you'd realistically need to survive here with 2 people.

MadsL

Dord wrote: »

Weighing in a little late here, but I'll go ahead.

The reckonable income is that of the sponsor only. They do not recognise the income of the applicant(s). The sponsor has full responsibility and should be able to carry the weight on their income/salary alone. The guideline they gave (40K cumulative over 3 years) is extremely low.

However, they do go on to mention recommended gross incomes and that for a couple with no children is 30K. That seems about right. As mentioned previously, 25K is probably the minimum you'd realistically need to survive here with 2 people.

How do you get a joint gross income if you are outside the country and cannot enter and work?

Uriel.

MadsL wrote: »

Like the article about protecting marriage quoted above?

The constitution is silent on the matter at hand. Many rights expressly provided for in the constitution have been shown to not apply to certain circumstances.

Whether or not the new law is constitutional is a matter for the supreme Court. But there have been many restrictions on residency and citizenship since the foundation of the state. I am unaware of any case that provides for a constitutional right to marry anyone you like.

MadsL

Average family farm income is €25,483. Some farms could be sustaining themselves at very low income levels below €13k.

No point in the advertising the Lisdoonvarna Matchmaking Festival overseas so.

Uriel.

seb65 wrote: »

Sorry, what tough conditions do you want to impose on me, a non-eu national married to an Irish citizen, one who's brought a tens of thousands into the state since arrival a few years ago? One who's well-educated, highly skilled and abides by the law?

What else exactly must I give to this country to prove I am worthy to live with my husband and future children in their country of birth?

Whatever the state deems sufficient in order to control residency and citizenship. I would argue that residency or citizenship is not a commodity but on the other hand I would argue that the state must protect itself against certain things such as welfare migration

Do you qualify for residence under the new law?

MadsL

Uriel. wrote: »

The constitution is silent on the matter at hand. Many rights expressly provided for in the constitution have been shown to not apply to certain circumstances.

Whether or not the new law is constitutional is a matter for the supreme Court. But there have been many restrictions on residency and citizenship since the foundation of the state. I am unaware of any case that provides for a constitutional right to marry anyone you like.

It is not a law. I thought I pointed that out.

These decisions were very arbitary, guidelines are going to be troublesome I think.

There is certainly equality legislation under which I expect these guidelines to be challenged.

seb65

Uriel. wrote: »

The constitution is silent on the matter at hand. Many rights expressly provided for in the constitution have been shown to not apply to certain circumstances.

Whether or not the new law is constitutional is a matter for the supreme Court. But there have been many restrictions on residency and citizenship since the foundation of the state. I am unaware of any case that provides for a constitutional right to marry anyone you like.

I'm unaware of any constitutional cases that find you have a right to breathe, perhaps because it's simply understood?

MadsL

seb65 wrote: »

I'm unaware of any constitutional cases that find you have a right to breathe, perhaps because it's simply understood?

It is indeed interesting to see the struggle to marry who you wish being slowly won, yet at the same time financial limits being introduced if that person is non-EEA.

Dord

MadsL wrote: »

How do you get a joint gross income if you are outside the country and cannot enter and work?

As mentioned, it seems only the sponsors income is recognised.

Uriel.

seb65 wrote: »

I'm unaware of any constitutional cases that find you have a right to breathe, perhaps because it's simply understood?

OK. Ridiculous point that cheapens any legal or otherwise argument you can make.

seb65

Uriel. wrote: »

Whatever the state deems sufficient in order to control residency and citizenship. I would argue that residency or citizenship is not a commodity but on the other hand I would argue that the state must protect itself against certain things such as welfare migration

Do you qualify for residence under the new law?

My apologies, you said - tough measures. Saying sufficient measures is different.

I'm asking you to outline the tough measures you alluded to earlier.

BTW, they're guidelines, not law.

Of course I qualify. I am well-off from a western country, married to someone with a good job. Exactly who the country wants. Exactly not what the country wants to keep out with these guidelines.

MadsL

Dord wrote: »

As mentioned, it seems only the sponsors income is recognised.

And hence my objection...

Let's say a billionaire wants to move to Ireland and marry a disabled man who is not working.

Refused.

Huh?

Uriel.

MadsL wrote: »

It is not a law. I thought I pointed that out.

These decisions were very arbitary, guidelines are going to be troublesome I think.

There is certainly quality legislation under which I expect these guidelines to be challenged.

But is it not based on law or at least flowing from a law.? There is a policy decision taken to alter the factors taken into account in which to grant residency based on marriage. However the fact that an individual cannot freely reside in this country (i.e. Without restriction) is based on legislative instruments

Dord

MadsL wrote: »

And hence my objection...

Let's say a billionaire wants to move to Ireland and marry a disabled man who is not working.

Refused.

Huh?

Good point.

Just in general, marrying a non-eea person has it's difficulties aside from VISA's etc. I've been through it and "been around to all the houses". Paperwork to be translated, stamped, verified.... all multiple times. Hell, I even have two marriage certificates!

Was it worth it? Damn right.

MadsL

Uriel. wrote: »

But is it not based on law or at least flowing from a law.? There is a policy decision taken to alter the factors taken into account in which to grant residency based on marriage. However the fact that an individual cannot freely reside in this country (i.e. Without restriction) is based on legislative instruments

But, generally speaking, as the spouse of citizen of the EU they had the right to reside and work, regardless of their spouses income.

That just changed. Not by law and the democratic process, but by stoke of the pen of a bureaucrat.

That seems off to me. Or perhaps I value democracy more highly than others?

Uriel.

seb65 wrote: »

My apologies, you said - tough measures. Saying sufficient measures is different.

I'm asking you to outline the tough measures you alluded to earlier.

BTW, they're guidelines, not law.

Of course I qualify. I am well-off from a western country, married to someone with a good job. Exactly who the country wants. Exactly not what the country wants to keep out with these guidelines.

As I understand it they are guidelines for the implementation/policy of implementation of existing legislative measures. In order words at the foundation, there is a legal imstrument(s) that restrict residency and citizenship in ireland.

Leaving aside the conditions provided for here, would you qualify for residence under other avenues.?

MadsL

Dord wrote: »

Good point.

Just in general, marrying a non-eea person has it's difficulties aside from VISA's etc. I've been through it and "been around to all the houses". Paperwork to be translated, stamped, verified.... all multiple times. Hell, I even have two marriage certificates!

Was it worth it? Damn right.

I was not allowed to marry my wife in the jurisdiction of Ireland without originals of my wife's ex husband's birth cert, their marriage cert (he has it) and the sworn testimony of her ex.

Bit hard as she has no idea where he lives. :rolleyes:

MadsL

Uriel. wrote: »

Leaving aside the conditions provided for here, would you qualify for residence under other avenues.?

Why should they have to? Married to an EU citizen is not enough?

Dord

MadsL wrote: »

But, generally speaking, as the spouse of citizen of the EU they had the right to reside and work, regardless of their spouses income.

That just changed. Not by law and the democratic process, but by stoke of the pen of a bureaucrat.

That seems off to me. Or perhaps I value democracy more highly than others?

The current system treats Irish & EEA persons differently in respect to this. It's ridiculous but the truth. I'm not sure if these "guidelines" clarify that or enforce it further.

seb65

Uriel. wrote: »

Leaving aside the conditions provided for here, would you qualify for residence under other avenues.?

What difference does that make?

Still waiting on those tough conditions...

Uriel.

MadsL wrote: »

But, generally speaking, as the spouse of citizen of the EU they had the right to reside and work, regardless of their spouses income.

That just changed. Not by law and the democratic process, but by stoke of the pen of a bureaucrat.

That seems off to me. Or perhaps I value democracy more highly than others?

You mean as a spouse of a citizen of Ireland. save for the provisions of the directive and treaty mentioned earlier, Member states are free generally to decide the laws and conditions of residence and citizenship and assuch maintain a degree of ssovereignty in that regard.

Democracy works by delegating certain power to elected officials (in this country anyway). Again we have legislation restricting residency here. I presume at the very basic level that such restriction as harsh. Governments have within their remit discretion in some circumstances to expand or narrow conditions attaching to certain aspects. Such is government policy

seb65

What I'm surprised at is that Irish nationals are not outraged that an EU, but non-Irish, national can move over here with their Non-EU spouse without the new restrictions.

So Irish people cannot even bring their own spouses over in some circumstances, but non-Irish, EU nationals can?

Dord

MadsL wrote: »

I was not allowed to marry my wife in the jurisdiction of Ireland without originals of my wife's ex husband's birth cert, their marriage cert (he has it) and the sworn testimony of her ex.

Bit hard as she has no idea where he lives. :rolleyes:

Bit of a predicament. I haven't been in that situation but from what I recall one of the documents the marriage registration people can ask for is proof of freedom to marry.

Here's the Irish version;

https://www.dfa.ie/travel/our-services/marriage-and-civil-partnership-abroad/how-to-apply-for-certificate-of-freedom-to-marry/

Her home countries foreign affairs dept should have had a similar document available.

Uriel.

MadsL wrote: »

Why should they have to? Married to an EU citizen is not enough?

Well clearly not?

Uriel.

seb65 wrote: »

What I'm surprised at is that Irish nationals are not outraged that an EU, but non-Irish, national can move over here with their Non-EU spouse without the new restrictions.

So Irish people cannot even bring their own spouses over in some circumstances, but non-Irish, EU nationals can?

Well you have to be an Irish citizen or an EU citizen.

Dord

seb65 wrote: »

So Irish people cannot even bring their own spouses over in some circumstances, but non-Irish, EU nationals can?

Same way as it is now.

Dord

Uriel. wrote: »

Well you have to be an Irish citizen or an EU citizen.

There's a distinction made in the guidelines and current practice.