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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

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    #3422
    RoundBox11
    Registered Users Posts: 854 ✭✭✭RoundBox11


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    Interestingly British and Irish Lion, Paul Wallace, has joined Munster's scrum coach in criticism of Barnes' refereeing of the scrums. Both agree that Haymans was going straight to ground.

    In my opinion, Kilcoyne did brilliantly to adjust his technique to ensure that Barnes realised that Haymans was at fault. Two scrummaging experts have commented on the issue, and both agree with my assessment.


    Or your parroting their assessment? You could technically say that all professional props are expert scrummagers. But that doesn't mean they know it all, hence why some are better than others.

    I actually quite like Kilcoyne. I don't think his scrummaging is good enough yet tho.


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    #3423
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    former legend wrote: »
    Jesus, can we not have any sort of constructive criticism of Munster players?

    "constructive criticism" like declaring views of others as moronic?

    and of course, such "constructive criticism" of other players is always accepted by their supporters!


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    #3424
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    No constructive criticism of munster players?

    Sorry now but Munster fans are a minority on the board. Our players get just as much criticism and a bit of hyper analysis too IMO


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    #3425
    molloyjh
    Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    RoundBox11 wrote: »
    Or your parroting their assessment?

    The assessment of 2 utterly unbiased commentators. Oh wait...


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    #3426
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    No constructive criticism of munster players?

    Sorry now but Munster fans are a minority on the board. Our players get just as much criticism and a bit of hyper analysis too IMO

    Post edited.


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    #3427
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Sorry now but Munster fans are a minority on the board. Our players get just as much criticism and a bit of hyper analysis too IMO

    That's possibly true, but it's the utter refusal of a minority of that minority to entertain any such criticism that is the problem.


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    #3428
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    former legend wrote: »
    That's possibly true, but it's the utter refusal of a minority of that minority to entertain any such criticism that is the problem.

    Not sure I'm seeing that though. I mean Kilcoyne isn't the strongest scrummager, but he's no "liability" either


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    #3429
    Tox56
    Registered Users Posts: 11,636 ✭✭✭✭Tox56


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Not sure I'm seeing that though. I mean Kilcoyne isn't the strongest scrummager, but he's no "liability" either

    Liability maybe not, but he's been involved in so many messy scrums recently his technique is clearly not stable and if Cronin is a better scrummager (as it appears from what little ive seen) it won't take him long to move ahead unless Killer works at it. He can't keep getting the ref on his wrong side and giving up field position in games as important as Sunday.


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    #3430
    MugMugs
    Registered Users Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    but he's no "liability" either

    He has been pinged by Ref's in his last four maybe five games resulting in two yellow cards.

    Really?


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    #3431
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    MugMugs wrote: »
    He has been pinged by Ref's in his last four maybe five games resulting in two yellow cards.

    Really?

    His yellow card against Leinster was not because of scrummaging

    He's not a liability. It's just hyperbole of the highest order really . Munster's scrum has been excellent all season and he has been our first choice loosehead


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    #3432
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    former legend wrote: »
    That's possibly true, but it's the utter refusal of a minority of that minority to entertain any such criticism that is the problem.

    There is a difference between being unaccepting of valid criticism and arguing unfair criticism based on the common board opinion. I've argued that Killer performed well against Haymans and have cited two scrum experts who share the same opinion.


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    #3433
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Not sure I'm seeing that though. I mean Kilcoyne isn't the strongest scrummager, but he's no "liability" either

    The use of words like "liability" don't help any sort of debate, but when you concede three penalties at the first three scrums (or whatever the count was), then something needs to be done. Yeah, Kilcoyne could go down the road of trying to cheat his way out of trouble, as suggested by MS above, or his scrum coach can make excuses and blame the cheating tight-head, but I'd much rather they both work on his scrummaging because if he can bring that up to match his ability in the loose, he'll be close to the complete package.


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    #3434
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    There is a difference between being unaccepting of valid criticism and arguing unfair criticism based on the common board opinion. I've argued that Killer performed well against Haymans and have cited two scrum experts who share the same opinion.

    You mean the Munster scrum coach and Munster native Paul Wallace?

    If the Toulon scrum coach and Carl Hayman's mam came out and said Kilcoyne was at fault, would you accept that as gospel?


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    #3435
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    former legend wrote: »
    The use of words like "liability" don't help any sort of debate, but when you concede three penalties at the first three scrums (or whatever the count was), then something needs to be done. Yeah, Kilcoyne could go down the road of trying to cheat his way out of trouble, as suggested by MS above, or his scrum coach can make excuses and blame the cheating tight-head, but I'd much rather they both work on his scrummaging because if he can bring that up to match his ability in the loose, he'll be close to the complete package.

    Something was done. Killer adjusted his technique/body position which allowed Barnes to single out Haymans as the offender. He was on the verge of obtained a yellow card, but he managed to adjust and win the referees interpretation. You can't ask for more from a scrummager.


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    #3436
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    former legend wrote: »
    You mean the Munster scrum coach and Munster native Paul Wallace?

    If the Toulon scrum coach and Carl Hayman's mam came out and said Kilcoyne was at fault, would you accept that as gospel?

    are you for real?

    you give out about an inability to accept criticism and then decide that anyone with any sort of Munster connection cannot be honest!

    Paul Wallace is one of the most respected analysts around and was one of the top props of his time...to dismiss his views cause he is from Cork is extremely petty

    would you dismiss any views he has of Leinster players seeing as he played for them too?


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    #3437
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Yeah I don't see why his opinion should be ignored because he's from Munster


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    #3438
    MugMugs
    Registered Users Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    His yellow card against Leinster was not because of scrummaging

    He's not a liability. It's just hyperbole of the highest order really . Munster's scrum has been excellent all season and he has been our first choice loosehead

    He was pinged for his scrum (as was Ross) consistently throughout that game.

    Was he not carded for his scrummaging for the Reds next game too?

    It just seems to me at the moment that Killer is a common denominator with Refs and scrums.


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    #3439
    Riskymove
    Registered Users Posts: 10,887 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    Something was done.

    exactly

    this happens quite regularly in rugby whereby the Ref seems to be making calls on what he perceives to be the problem...sometimes inaccurately

    the player then needs to adjust...even if not in the wrong

    I have seen this at the highest levels with the top players....Ref interpretation of the scrum/front row is an ongoing issue


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    #3440
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    MugMugs wrote: »
    He was pinged for his scrum (as was Ross) consistently throughout that game.

    Was he not carded for his scrummaging for the Reds next game too?

    It just seems to me at the moment that Killer is a common denominator with Refs and scrums.

    Nope.


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    #3441
    Mahatma Geansai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,668 ✭✭✭Mahatma Geansai


    former legend wrote: »
    You mean the Munster scrum coach and Munster native Paul Wallace?

    If the Toulon scrum coach and Carl Hayman's mam came out and said Kilcoyne was at fault, would you accept that as gospel?

    I can only work with the available information. Even Barnes admitted being wrong when he stated that he was giving Haymans the benefit of the doubt.

    If Penney/Wallace didn't believe that Kilcoyne was in the right, they wouldn't have commented on it - simple as that. I am offering the information of scrummaging experts to substantiate my opinion. You are doing nothing but poo-pooing my argument without offering anything substantial in return.


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    #3442
    MugMugs
    Registered Users Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Nope.

    Ultimate Rugby says he was carded along with the Toulose 3, Montes.

    Really?


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    #3443
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    MugMugs wrote: »
    Ultimate Rugby says he was carded along with the Toulose 3, Montes.

    Really?

    He was carded, but not for some sort of inferior scrummaging display. we were well on top of Toulouse in that department


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    #3444
    MugMugs
    Registered Users Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Right.

    Allow me to lay it out.

    Killers bbeen coming to the attention of pretty much every ref he has played for in the past few games.

    His scrum being the main culprit.

    Killer is becoming a liability as a result of the above.


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    #3445
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    MugMugs wrote: »
    Right.

    Allow me to lay it out.

    Killers bbeen coming to the attention of pretty much every ref he has played for in the past few games.

    His scrum being the main culprit.

    Killer is becoming a liability as a result of the above.

    lol. I'm done in this tbh.

    As I've said before it's not the strongest part of his game but not ever LH is a destructive scrummager. he's in no way a liability and using the last few games he has played to somehow prove that is hilarious


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    #3446
    MugMugs
    Registered Users Posts: 17,875 ✭✭✭✭MugMugs


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    he's in no way a liability and using the last few games he has played to somehow prove that is hilarious
    You're only as good as your last game.

    I'll admit that I only really watch Munster toward the end of the season or the odd HC game but I've just seen nothing but issues with him since I've started.

    I'm sure he's fantastic when I'm not looking. :rolleyes:


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    #3447
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    MugMugs wrote: »
    You're only as good as your last game.

    I'll admit that I only really watch Munster toward the end of the season or the odd HC game but I've just seen nothing but issues with him since I've started.

    I'm sure he's fantastic when I'm not looking. :rolleyes:

    So you admit only really watching him in the odd game over the last few weeks?

    Maybe you shouldn't be making such black and white statements about him as a player so?


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    #3448
    Buer
    Registered Users Posts: 24,212 ✭✭✭✭Buer


    MugMugs wrote: »
    You're only as good as your last game.

    I'll admit that I only really watch Munster toward the end of the season or the odd HC game but I've just seen nothing but issues with him since I've started.

    I'm sure he's fantastic when I'm not looking. :rolleyes:

    Of all aspects of the game, scrummaging is the one area, more than any other, where you can't take all your information from such a small sample range.

    If you're not watching him consistently throughout the season, you completely undermine your argument.

    For the record, I think there are issues with his scrummaging but he gets away with it, turning it into a coin toss and winning as many penalties as he loses (he probably wins more, to be honest). Scrums are semi-regularly a mess with him in them but that does not equate to a liability.


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    #3449
    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,221 ✭✭✭Ugo Monye spacecraft experience


    Buer wrote: »
    Of all aspects of the game, scrummaging is the one area, more than any other, where you can't take all your information from such a small sample range.

    If you're not watching him consistently throughout the season, you completely undermine your argument.

    For the record, I think there are issues with his scrummaging but he gets away with it, turning it into a coin toss and winning as many penalties as he loses (he probably wins more, to be honest). Scrums are semi-regularly a mess with him in them but that does not equate to a liability.

    this


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    #3450
    former legend
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭former legend


    Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »
    Yeah I don't see why his opinion should be ignored because he's from Munster

    I'm not saying it should be ignored at all but in no way should it outweigh the opinion of the referee.

    Wayne Barnes was on the spot. Paul Wallace was at home on the couch. Who had the better viewpoint on which prop was infringing?


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    #3451
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mahatma Geansai wrote: »
    There is a difference between being unaccepting of valid criticism and arguing unfair criticism based on the common board opinion. I've argued that Killer performed well against Haymans and have cited two scrum experts who share the same opinion.

    Two experts that happen to be his agent and his coach. Come on.


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