Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

Riskymove

irishbucsfan wrote: »

What did Wallace actually say about Kilcoyne?

basically in his analysis of the game he believed the ref was calling it wrong

tbh it was more about criticising the ref than supporting Kilcoyne

molloyjh

Podge_irl wrote: »

There are some weirdly ludicrous things being associated to Wallace here. I've always had a lot of time for his opinion and I would trust it was honestly held.

Still doesn't mean I have to agree with him.

Absolutely. The point I was making was more that taking 2 peoples opinion, one of whom is a Munster coach, and spreading them as being utter gospel is a bit daft.

That doesn't mean I agree or disagree with either btw, it's just an observation on the comments here is all.

Podge_irl

Riskymove wrote: »

of course not

but if your only counterview is that his comments are invalid becasue he is from Munster..that would be pretty weak

I phrased that poorly (or incompletely).

I don't have a strong view on Kilcoyne as I haven't seen enough of him. It is possible to disagree with Wallace without invoking questions about his integrity but that clearly isn't being done here. Likewise, his word isn't exactly gospel though.

My limited view of Kilcoyne would be that he is struggling slightly but that that is to be expected. The opposition prop may well be cheating, but that kind of thing happened to Healy a lot and he had to learn to deal with it (however the feck props do that). Until he did he always faced questions about his scrummaging. The best props do better than breaking even in the scrum penalty wise and that should be what Munster are aiming for. Ultimately I think Kilcoyne is a fine prop with plenty potential but I don't think it's unfair to suggest he struggles a little in scrums.

Riskymove

Podge_irl wrote: »

I phrased that poorly (or incompletely).

I don't have a strong view on Kilcoyne as I haven't seen enough of him. It is possible to disagree with Wallace without invoking questions about his integrity but that clearly isn't being done here. Likewise, his word isn't exactly gospel though.

I meant "your " in the general sense as oppossed to just YOUR

If we cannot accept the view of a guy who was one the top props and a respected analyst, over anonomous internet posters, then what is the point?

Podge_irl

Podge_irl wrote: »

I phrased that poorly (or incompletely).

I don't have a strong view on Kilcoyne as I haven't seen enough of him. It is possible to disagree with Wallace without invoking questions about his integrity but that clearly isn't being done here.

I phrased that poorly as well. By "that clearly isn't being done here" I meant that his integrity clearly IS being questioned and that's stupid.

I think I need to go home.

Podge_irl

Riskymove wrote: »

I meant "your " in the general sense as oppossed to just YOUR

If we cannot accept the view of a guy who was one the top props and a respected analyst, over anonomous internet posters, then what is the point?

It's a fine line. I don't like appeals to authority either (I'm obviously right cause X player agrees with me).

Ultimately everything we say here is pointless anyway!

Clearlier

Riskymove wrote: »

unfortunately all it takes is any association with Munster it seems and your comments become unacceptable

I'll also have to remember to simply ignore anything Shane Horgan or Bernard Jackman have to say in future (unfortunate cause I usually agree) when commenting on Leinster or Ireland...they are obviously being dishonest and have ulterier motives

I don't understand why you wouldn't take into account somebody's background when assessing their comments. I thought most people did that reflexively? Of course I wouldn't trust Jackman or Horgan to give an unbiased opinion on the performance of Leinster or Irish players. It doesn't mean that I'm not interested in what they have to say but I'm more interested in the hard factual analysis than the opinion. The best analysis I read of the Munster v Wasps semi at Lansdowne Road when Munster were robbed by a bad decision that allowed a try by Trevor Leota when he had clearly dropped the ball was written by an Aussie. The Irish papers talked about the bad luck. The English papers talked about the heroic performance. Everything, everything that we do and say is influenced by our past experiences. It informs our analysis and opinions. Bias is rarely conscious. I mean, how often do you think a referee goes out to call the game in favour of one team or the other? Then think about how often it happens. Why is home advantage so important? Remember BOD's pass to himself? The way the laws were interpreted at the time it was a clear case of blocking. Yet, you had Alain Rolland on the TV a few days later explaining how it was perfectly fine. That's why ref's don't referee their own teams (and why Rolland should never have reffed Leinster).

I didn't see the Munster match, I'm not sure that I've ever seen Kilcoyne play and I certainly have no opinion on his scrummaging abilities. I have seen Wallace talk though and aside from not thinking that he's a great analyst it's risible to think that the prospect of working with the man would have no influence on his stated analysis.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

BazPM wrote: »

Neither are confirmed coaches of the player they are asked about but even then id take their opinions on Leinster players with a massive pinch of salt. That's just common sense[/QUOTE]

Seems a little ridiculous. If you applied that logic to every analyst for every HC game you'd be discounting most analysis because they often get a former player with ties to the club playing on the panel

And so you should. The best analysis you get on sky is typically an ex-English international commenting on a game not involving an English club.

Riskymove wrote: »

I meant "your " in the general sense as oppossed to just YOUR

If we cannot accept the view of a guy who was one the top props and a respected analyst, over anonomous internet posters, then what is the point?

I disagree that he's a respected analyst. I don't think that he analyses a game very well and I'd respect the opinion of several posters on boards well ahead of his. To think otherwise is IMO to fall into the trap of believing that just because somebody is on TV and/or has played the game they must be an expert. Murray Kinsella is a good analyst. The demented mole offers a lot of insight. Paul Wallace is a commentator who makes slightly edgy comments.

Swiwi.

I see Feek has got the nod. Good Crusaders man that. Although from the 'naki originally. A good asset for the Irish team I would think.

The Pheasant2

I saw Ferris has an ankle injury and is having a knee problem assessed - does anybody know the severity of these injuries? I'd be devastated if he couldn't go to Argentina

bilston

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

I saw Ferris has an ankle injury and is having a knee problem assessed - does anybody know the severity of these injuries? I'd be devastated if he couldn't go to Argentina

I read elsewhere that they are just niggles that you'd expect to get from being out for so long. I can't see him making the plane to Argentina though at this stage.

budhabob

molloyjh wrote: »

Absolutely. The point I was making was more that taking 2 peoples opinion, one of whom is a Munster coach, and spreading them as being utter gospel is a bit daft.

That doesn't mean I agree or disagree with either btw, it's just an observation on the comments here is all.

Is Wallace the munster scrum coach? it used to be Paul McCarthy, but Penny has been running them of late. Never heard of Wallace being the scrum coach.

.ak

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

I saw Ferris has an ankle injury and is having a knee problem assessed - does anybody know the severity of these injuries? I'd be devastated if he couldn't go to Argentina

I'd be the opposite. Give him a good preseason to build up muscle around the knees. We have an absolute conveyor belt of flankers all chomping at the bit to play against the argies. Murphy, TOD, Ruddock should all feature heavily in that tour.

Podge_irl

Ferris has had nothing but preseason for basically two years. He needs to be playing.

Also, I'm not sure any amount of pre-season will stop him getting injured again unfortunately.

.ak

Podge_irl wrote: »

Ferris has had nothing but preseason for basically two years. He needs to be playing.

Also, I'm not sure any amount of pre-season will stop him getting injured again unfortunately.

Not if he still has question marks over his knee. He's had rehab for two years, not preseason. Rehab is a far more controlled process, about gaining stability and strength to the point of running and contact. A preseason would be about putting on serious strength and conditioning without the cloud of injury. A build up of muscle is often considered the best way for injury prevention in joints.

Riskymove

budhabob wrote: »

Is Wallace the munster scrum coach? it used to be Paul McCarthy, but Penny has been running them of late. Never heard of Wallace being the scrum coach.

it was claimed but no evidence or back-up was made by the poster

phog

Irish Player costs

No idea how accurate any of this is but makes for an interesting read.

Tox56

phog wrote: »

Irish Player costs

No idea how accurate any of this is but makes for an interesting read.

1- The Irish provincial sides are not overperforming. They are performing on par with their funding. Maybe even below it.

:pac:

And heres us settling for 5 H Cups in 8 years, and 6 out of a possible 8 league finalists in the last 4 years. What could have been!

errlloyd

phog wrote: »

Irish Player costs

No idea how accurate any of this is but makes for an interesting read.

Does some of leinster and Munster cash go towards their facilities. Or is that from the central kitty?

stephen_n

phog wrote: »

Irish Player costs

No idea how accurate any of this is but makes for an interesting read.

I think he is choosing to ignore vast amounts of spending that wouldn't suit his argument. The Leinster branch would spend a fair amount of money every year outside of player wages. I'd imagine the true figure for player wages would lay somewhere between the two figures and probably in the smaller range.

Podge_irl

The wage bill they talk about would include international appearances too, which would be up to 100k per player if they weren't centrally contracted.

I don't think we're as bad off as GT would infer, and I ****ing hate the phrase "punching above our weight" that he throws about with such reckless abandon, but the budgets definitely aren't comparable to the French ones.

blackdog1

Im gonna tell you all what to look out for when 2 props are scrummaging and this is an informed opinion. When a tighthead engages he usually hits down on the loosehead and pins him down so the loosehead can't drive him up. If the loosehead is in a bad position if hes strong enough he can fight his way out of this (healy) if hes not and he doesn't like his position he can drop it (killer does this do does domingo for france). If the tighthead is in a bad position he can go in on the hooker if the loosehead allows him ( botha does this alot). Or he can bind on the looseheads arm snd twist him in. ( adam jones anyone?). There are other techniques like loosehead walking around but these are the main causes for collapse. Killer dropped some in others hayman twisted in when killer got warned of a yellow. Barnes reffed it excellently. Stop whinging about it.

phog

blackdog1 wrote: »

Im gonna tell you all what to look out for when 2 props are scrummaging and this is an informed opinion. When a tighthead engages he usually hits down on the loosehead and pins him down so the loosehead can't drive him up. If the loosehead is in a bad position if hes strong enough he can fight his way out of this (healy) if hes not and he doesn't like his position he can drop it (killer does this do does domingo for france). If the tighthead is in a bad position he can go in on the hooker if the loosehead allows him ( botha does this alot). Or he can bind on the looseheads arm snd twist him in. ( adam jones anyone?). There are other techniques like loosehead walking around but these are the main causes for collapse. Killer dropped some in others hayman twisted in when killer got warned of a yellow. Barnes reffed it excellently. Stop whinging about it.

In your opinion.

danthefan

phog wrote: »

In your opinion.

Do you actually read posts at all before just jumping in with both feet at any perceived slight against Munster players? From the very post you quoted. I'll even make it larger and bolded so you get it this time:

Im gonna tell you all what to look out for when 2 props are scrummaging and this is an informed opinion

Tox56

blackdog1 wrote: »

Im gonna tell you all what to look out for when 2 props are scrummaging and this is an informed opinion. When a tighthead engages he usually hits down on the loosehead and pins him down so the loosehead can't drive him up. If the loosehead is in a bad position if hes strong enough he can fight his way out of this (healy) if hes not and he doesn't like his position he can drop it (killer does this do does domingo for france). If the tighthead is in a bad position he can go in on the hooker if the loosehead allows him ( botha does this alot). Or he can bind on the looseheads arm snd twist him in. ( adam jones anyone?). There are other techniques like loosehead walking around but these are the main causes for collapse. Killer dropped some in others hayman twisted in when killer got warned of a yellow. Barnes reffed it excellently. Stop whinging about it.

This is exactly how I saw it on Sunday as well, I think Barnes reffed it very well and had a pretty good game in general

.ak

phog wrote: »

In your opinion.

danthefan wrote: »

Do you actually read posts at all before just jumping in with both feet at any perceived slight against Munster players? From the very post you quoted. I'll even make it larger and bolded so you get it this time:

Enough of this. Discuss the rugby please.

Heroditas

phog wrote: »

Irish Player costs

No idea how accurate any of this is but makes for an interesting read.

Yeah but it's Gwlad!

Mahatma Geansai

blackdog1 wrote: »

Im gonna tell you all what to look out for when 2 props are scrummaging and this is an informed opinion. When a tighthead engages he usually hits down on the loosehead and pins him down so the loosehead can't drive him up. If the loosehead is in a bad position if hes strong enough he can fight his way out of this (healy) if hes not and he doesn't like his position he can drop it (killer does this do does domingo for france). If the tighthead is in a bad position he can go in on the hooker if the loosehead allows him ( botha does this alot). Or he can bind on the looseheads arm snd twist him in. ( adam jones anyone?). There are other techniques like loosehead walking around but these are the main causes for collapse. Killer dropped some in others hayman twisted in when killer got warned of a yellow. Barnes reffed it excellently. Stop whinging about it.

Significantly more informed opinions than yours (Penney, Wallace, and Barnes) all highlighted Haymans going straight to ground. It is a common tactic for THs as they often get the benefit of the doubt; Jones and Botha frequently do it.

mogwai81

When is the squad for the June tests due to be announced?

irishbucsfan

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Significantly more informed opinions than yours (Penney, Wallace, and Barnes) all highlighted Haymans going straight to ground. It is a common tactic for THs as they often get the benefit of the doubt; Jones and Botha frequently do it.

The poster said Haymans did it. And he said he agreed with Barnes.

Do people read these posts at all?

blackdog1

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

Significantly more informed opinions than yours (Penney, Wallace, and Barnes) all highlighted Haymans going straight to ground. It is a common tactic for THs as they often get the benefit of the doubt; Jones and Botha frequently do it.

Barnes the pundit is an idiot flyhalf. Wallace wont criticise any irish player and penneys is his coach. Normally 2 props are cheating at any given time. Killer is young but id like to see him fight more in the scrum. I would also say hes young and I certainly wouldn't right him off. Also from a leinsterfans point of view I thought moore was a liability in the french match and should and could have cost us the match with those 2 scrums but again I admired him because he fought hard in the scrum even though he got done and he'll be s hell of a better prop come the rwc in june next.

Most props are illegal and only the very best can launch attacks of setpiece nowadays. The best scrummaging th in Europe for me are afoa, mas and ross. They scrummage straight and mostly deal with any loosehead they come across. You can see the best props are the ones whose team constantly launch set plays off scrums.