Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

CatFromHue

Thomas Waldrom made similar comments before he left NZ (that he wanted to play for England) before he found out he was already qualified for England. He has gotten 5 caps I think and is out of the reckoning now, which is around when his 3 year residency would have been up.

Swiwi.

Buer wrote: »

While I've no problem massively with the project concept in terms of someone coming here, playing for a few years and then being eligible to play for us if they are good enough, I don't like seeing comments like the above. Steven Sykes made similar comments upon signing for Leinster. While I'm sure they don't mean to, I get the impression they expect to be selected for Ireland if they're talking openly about it 3 years out.

In fairness, he has a real chance. Darcy will be gone in 3 years, leaving the concussion-prone Marshall, and Olding who I've never really seen play but apparently is quite good. Aki is already better than all the other 12s I've seen playing for the Irish provinces. I dunno, I just find it weird that someone gives up their whole heritage with the express aim of playing for another country. Anyway, I'll spew if I read another ignorant comment on this forum about NZ raiding the Islands for talent. Probably done my dash on this topic.

Swiwi.

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

He wants to play international rugby for the best team he can, but he knows he'll never be good enough to be a Kiwi. Hopefully he never plays for Ireland. I'd like to think we put more value on those we deem suitable to represent the country, but I don't think that's the case.

Not anymore, anyway. If he doesn't want to play for NZ, we certainly won't be press-ganging him into it. Much like Ireland, we want players who have pride in the jersey, not mercenaries. Right, I said stop, so that's it!

CatFromHue

Just from reading that Stuff article I'd guess the financial side of things is important here, as it is to all pro players.

If he went to France he could make good money but the path to international rugby would be tougher so coming to Ireland the money would still be better than back home and he has a chance at International rugby (which would make the money side of things even better).

Buer

I'd like to think that the notion of NZ raiding the islands at this point has been firmly dispelled at this point. I haven't followed this thread in recent days but it's been a while since I saw anyone try to claim it. The idea peaked at the 2007 RWC but has gradually been in decline since then. I think the emergence of Rokocoko and Sivi were the catalysts for the real explosion in the fallacy.

I find it really odd that Aki is leaving NZ, commenting on his intention to play for Ireland and then saying that Samoa can be a fall back plan. He's unintentionally offending a few people with those words!

Risteard

Buer wrote: »

I'd like to think that the notion of NZ raiding the islands at this point has been firmly dispelled at this point. I haven't followed this thread in recent days but it's been a while since I saw anyone try to claim it. The idea peaked at the 2007 RWC but has gradually been in decline since then. I think the emergence of Rokocoko and Sivi were the catalysts for the real explosion in the fallacy.

I find it really odd that Aki is leaving NZ, commenting on his intention to play for Ireland and then saying that Samoa can be a fall back plan. He's unintentionally offending a few people with those words!

I found those comments absolutely perplexing tbh. How many in Samoa would be happy to see him tog out after that?

P.Walnuts

Swiwi. wrote: »

In fairness, he has a real chance. Darcy will be gone in 3 years, leaving the concussion-prone Marshall, and Olding who I've never really seen play but apparently is quite good. Aki is already better than all the other 12s I've seen playing for the Irish provinces. I dunno, I just find it weird that someone gives up their whole heritage with the express aim of playing for another country. Anyway, I'll spew if I read another ignorant comment on this forum about NZ raiding the Islands for talent. Probably done my dash on this topic.

No offence, but if that topic and the opinions (misguided or otherwise) drive you insane so much then you should probably not bring up these kind of debates in the first place.

Tox56

Buer wrote: »

While I've no problem massively with the project concept in terms of someone coming here, playing for a few years and then being eligible to play for us if they are good enough, I don't like seeing comments like the above. Steven Sykes made similar comments upon signing for Leinster. While I'm sure they don't mean to, I get the impression they expect to be selected for Ireland if they're talking openly about it 3 years out.

Yeah I don't think all projects are made equal. Someone like Strauss who came from relative obscurity, put his body on the line time and again for Leinster and worked his way up the ladder feels as Irish to me as anyone. Players like Stander and Aki (and Sykes) who come over expressly targeting an international place just feel a bit off, have that 'mercenary' air about them.

Hagz

Swiwi. wrote: »

I dunno, I just find it weird that someone gives up their whole heritage with the express aim of playing for another country.

Well money talks, and if you make hold down a spot on the Irish team there's good money to be made.

Fireball07

I know we've had this discussion a million times before, but I really am not a fan. I think I'd like to see the residency rule changed from 3 to 5 years at least.

Buer

Fireball07 wrote: »

I know we've had this discussion a million times before, but I really am not a fan. I think I'd like to see the residency rule changed from 3 to 5 years at least.

Personally, I'd like to see the heritage rule altered sooner and only people with Irish parents be allowed to declare for us. I find the idea that someone who has a single grandparent born in a country entitles them to represent that country a bit silly.

I think the Waldrom case highlighted just how weak it is. He had a grandmother born in England (not raised) and that was enough. He wasn't even aware he could declare for England when he went there.

I think the project rule could be extended to 4 seasons anyway but at least these guys have had to contribute something to Irish rugby and make a commitment to us before being able to pull on the jersey.

Fireball07

Buer wrote: »

Personally, I'd like to see the heritage rule altered sooner and only people with Irish parents be allowed to declare for us. I find the idea that someone who has a single grandparent born in a country entitles them to represent that country a bit silly.

I think the Waldrom case highlighted just how weak it is. He had a grandmother born in England (not raised) and that was enough. He wasn't even aware he could declare for England when he went there.

I think the project rule could be extended to 4 seasons anyway but at least these guys have had to contribute something to Irish rugby and make a commitment to us before being able to pull on the jersey.

It doesn't bother me as much, probably because it hasn't affected us much recently. The only thing is that some people with Irish grandparents might actually feel a connection to Ireland, they might have come here when they were younger, they may even consider themselves Irish (their parents certainly might). It might be rare, but it is a possibility.

errlloyd

Tox56 wrote: »

Clubs want players not playing for their national team if at all possible. They get that in players like Gopperth, Nacewa, Du Preez, Parks, Clarke, Botha, Afoa, Muller, Laulala and many more. None of those players will ever play for Ireland. Even still there are a handful of regular internationals in Pienaar, Kirchner.

When you think of it that way, NZ's policy of not picking overseas players almost increases their market value! If someone like Afoa was still eligible for NZ and playing for them he'd certainly be less valuable to Ulster. I can certainly see that being true of Delon and Steffan Armitage in Toulon. Both of which have been of England quality during their time over there.

its_phil wrote: »

Connacht fans don't want to develop players for other province, that is not our job anymore. If they have to be forced to come out West, best of luck we don't want them. Heenan wanted to come and I much prefer having him than some young lad forced out here.

That is also a pretty interesting way of looking at it. It's sad to think that Irish rugby has got to the stage where someone from the other side of the planet has more loyalty to Connacht than someone from the other side of the Shannon. The player I am most jealous of in the other provinces right now is Henshaw, but I hope he stays at Connacht.

Swiwi. wrote: »

'tis the lure of the green jersey after all...

"That's a big part of my decision to move," he said. "Hopefully when the time is right and if I'm playing good footy, hopefully I can play for the Ireland international team.

"I've got to play well before that though.

I have no problem with how he phrased these comments (from an Irish perspective). I don't think it's cocky for him to believe that if he plays will he'll have shot at representing us. If I was Samoan I'd be crossing him off the list and pretending he didn't exist.

From a practical point of view if he's motivated to play for Ireland and thinks he's good enough to play for Ireland than it's great. It means he'll have that extra motivation.

If an Ireland cap was what made him come here over France than it's surely good for the provinces too.

At the end of the day we're not producing as many rugby players as the top nations, our playing pool is growing, but in the meantime supplementing it isn't doing much harm.

Also yes, I did just discover multiquote.

Berticus

If people were in England, Australia, south africa or Wales or France and a good player, born in a foreign country, became eligible to play for any of these countries, they would barely bat an eyelid.

In Ireland however it is such a travesty for some people. It's ridiculous!

The reason is that Irish people have historically emigrated and not a whole lot of people came the other direction. Without seeming like I'm going well off topic here but the World is becoming a lot more Global and the idea of people moving country for work (eg a rugby player) is going to happen more and more often.

Having irish teams made up of purely Murphy's and Kennedy's is a thing of the past and will only decrease as time goes by...

I have no problem if a person from any country, who is of the required standard, and meets eligibility requirements, playing for Ireland, whether they have lived in Ireland for their whole life or not.

CatFromHue

I don't think that's right about loyalty to Shannon. Would Aki be heading to Connacht if he couldn't represent Ireland? No way!

It's a big move to move away from your home province for a season or two out west.

Hagan and Carr did it but weren't success's when they moved back. Keatley and Cronin did it but never got to move back to their home province.

What would have happened if Dom Ryan, Donnacha Ryan, or Nagle had moved to Connacht earlier in their career? I dunno, but I couldn't see them moving back to their home province if they did move. The Munster second row and Leinster back row conveyor belt is fast moving and once they stepped off I couldn't have seen them stepping back on to it.

Fireball07

It's all a question of timing surely.


But I do think that if a player is good enough and he really wants to go back to his home province, then he'll get the chance.



Cronin mightn't have come home, but he's not done bad for himself at Leinster and say he was offered a contract at Munster when it was next up, I doubt he'd take it tbh. Not that many of our top young talents have left their province tbh. We'll see how the likes of Gilsenan and Farrell do.

hahashake

Extending the residency would only hurt the tier one nations and would help the tier 2 and lower. Surely this is a good thing for the sport? If every tier one nation is doing it then they all will feel the effects.

I'm sure Samoa would love to have Aki playing next year at the RWC but Ireland can offer him more money. Blunt but based on his own words.

Tox56

hahashake wrote: »

Extending the residency would only hurt the tier one nations and would help the tier 2 and lower. Surely this is a good thing for the sport? If every tier one nation is doing it then they all will feel the effects.

I'm sure Samoa would love to have Aki playing next year at the RWC but Ireland can offer him more money. Blunt but based on his own words.

Is this Aki fella actually Samoan born or what?

danthefan

Tox56 wrote: »

Is this Aki fella actually Samoan born or what?

No he isn't, NZ born and raised.

hahashake

Tox56 wrote: »

Is this Aki fella actually Samoan born or what?

NZ born but Samoan ancestry. He is eligible for Samoa and said he will play for them in 3 years if he doesn't make the Ireland team.

CatFromHue

Fireball07 wrote: »

It's all a question of timing surely.


But I do think that if a player is good enough and he really wants to go back to his home province, then he'll get the chance.



Cronin mightn't have come home, but he's not done bad for himself at Leinster and say he was offered a contract at Munster when it was next up, I doubt he'd take it tbh. Not that many of our top young talents have left their province tbh. We'll see how the likes of Gilsenan and Farrell do.

Cronin could well move to Munster and be first choice there, for Ireland anyway it'd prob be best if he did. Will he though, or would Munster pursue him when they've got the 3 guys at the moment? I doubt it.

Grimebox

If I lived in a foreign country for three years, it would be my home

Tox56

danthefan wrote: »

No he isn't, NZ born and raised.

So is him playing for Samoa really that much different to him playing for Ireland?

hahashake

Tox56 wrote: »

So is him playing for Samoa really that much different to him playing for Ireland?

I can only assume he has family back in Samoa, speaks Samoan with his family and was raised with cultural links to Samoa. Also NZ is part of Polynesia.

Buer

In relation to replacing BOD, could we see the often mentioned (but never given too much serious discussion) move of Tommy Bowe to 13? The fact is he has now played 13 for Ulster, Ospreys and the Lions but never Ireland. He appeared there on a semi-regular basis for the Ospreys in particular.

I was never a massive fan of him there given his strength on the wing but, if we have players like Earls and Trimble on fire and competing for the wing spots, I think it gets to the point where we may have to consider him for the 13 jersey.

His hands for Ulster at the weekend were excellent particularly his linking for Marshall's try as well as his well known ability to get on the shoulder of carriers in midfield. This was the first time he started at 13 since returning to Ulster. I wonder was it a request made by Schmidt with one eye on the summer?

rockbeast

Grimebox wrote: »

If I lived in a foreign country for three years, it would be my home

That's a very good point. I think too many people view moving to another country as being similar to a lad from the country moving to Dublin or London. Still supporting their home county/country(fair enough) but never identifying as being a Dubliner/Londoner and possibly even supporting "Anyone but Dublin/England" . *Not a dig at country lads, Dubs just as guilty...

Thankfully that mindset doesn't necessarily apply to a lot of people, Irish and foreign. There are people who fully embrace their new country/place of residence as their home. Some people fully immerse themselves in their new home very quickly and soon identify as "being" from the new location.

Not everyone feels "the pull of the home soil".

desertcircus

The obsession with naturalised players really bugs me. I have several friends who have no Irish ancestry and who weren't born or raised here, but who came as adults and have become Irish citizens. If a person with no Irish ancestry can become Irish - if they can pay taxes, run for public office, serve on juries and vote to change the Irish constitution - then they can play rugby for Ireland. Saying otherwise is saying "you're Irish enough to vote on whether to allow gay couples to marry, and Irish enough to play for your province, but allowing you to play in a green jersey would make a mockery of the sport."

Riskymove

desertcircus wrote: »

The obsession with naturalised players really bugs me.

my issue is the potential it has to go too far

if our approach to any issue is to seek to bring in an overseas player...what for the young Irish players?

would we be happy to see 7 or 8 non-Irish representing the Country for example? Is it success at any cost?

we seemed to panic and bring in Bent for example and yet within months the likes of McGrath, Moore, Kilcoyne and Cronin are all in the mix

I have no issue with players coming here and becoming qualified and selected but actively planning for it is what concerns me

rockbeast

Riskymove wrote: »

my issue is the potential it has to go too far

if our approach to any issue is to seek to bring in an overseas player...what for the young Irish players?

would we be happy to see 7 or 8 non-Irish representing the Country for example? Is it success at any cost?

we seemed to panic and bring in Bent for example and yet within months the likes of McGrath, Moore, Kilcoyne and Cronin are all in the mix

I have no issue with players coming here and becoming qualified and selected but actively planning for it is what concerns me

Fair enough, we have enough native "projects" in our academies to focus on, no disagreement from me there, so no need to actively pursue foreign "projects". IMO all players should be considered IQ or NIQ.(or IE or NIE)

However I believe that any player that is, or becomes, eligible to play for Ireland should be considered for selection. If good enough then make an approach. If they want to play then I'll support that choice.

hahashake

Would Aki be a citizen after 3 years?

Would a 24 year old Irishmen who moved to London for a job cheer for England after 3 years?