Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread III

.ak

molloyjh wrote: »

I'd take a slightly different approach which involves invoking my morality to justify it. If a guy makes Ireland his home should we deny him the right to play international rugby because he wasn't "lucky enough" to be born here?

If someone gets naturalised here and then fecks off for the paycheck the moment he does then yes I'd have an issue with that. If a guy sets down his roots and his family here and intends to stay then he's more than welcome.

Yeah if I'm giving my honest opinion I agree too, I much rather seeing guys like Strauss getting a cap than guys like Bent, but my point is the game is professional and such emotions belong at the door.

ScissorPaperRock

marc96 wrote: »

How??born is SA.that can't be taken away.i was born white I can't turn black??

Wow....

National identity is socially constructed, just like the idea of a country/nation... it's something people made up.

Skin colour is not.

marc96

ScissorPaperRock wrote: »

Wow....

National identity is socially constructed, just like the idea of a country/nation... it's something people made up.

Skin colour is not.

I used the white/black as an example,my point is Strauss is South African and always will be.just because Ireland can't compete with the top nations isn't an excuse to go looking abroad for talent.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

marc96 wrote: »

How??born is SA.that can't be taken away.i was born white I can't turn black??

ah jaysus, thats totally ridiculous

Tox56

marc96 wrote: »

I used the white/black as an example,my point is Strauss is South African and always will be.just because Ireland can't compete with the top nations isn't an excuse to go looking abroad for talent.

Yes all 0 project players contributing to our Six Nations win literally 4 weeks ago

ScissorPaperRock

marc96 wrote: »

I used the white/black as an example,my point is Strauss is South African and always will be.just because Ireland can't compete with the top nations isn't an excuse to go looking abroad for talent.

It's an example that doesn't make any sense and doesn't add to your argument.


I think people can become Irish, and I have no interest in preventing people from embracing this country and its culture and wanting to become a part of that.

The idea of hunting overseas for people to make Irish, does sit a little uneasily with me though.

But it's very difficult to meaningfully and practically draw a line between people who are just here for the money/rugby and don't appreciate/respect the value of Irish citizenship and representing Ireland, and those who maybe came for the same reasons, but have since embraced Irishness and the cultural and historical value of the opportunity that has been given to them.

Swiwi.

I don't really mind the naturalisation thing when the motivation is Ireland itself. I just think Aki is coming for the money...and the added bonus on the side is being able to play international rugby. I still don't understand why he doesn't declare for Samoa and pick up a wage in the Top 14 or Japan etc. Obviously someone is doing a good job of selling Galway and playing rugby for Connacht and fairplay to them for it. I hope Aki doesn't mind the rain...

molloyjh

.ak wrote: »

Yeah if I'm giving my honest opinion I agree too, I much rather seeing guys like Strauss getting a cap than guys like Bent, but my point is the game is professional and such emotions belong at the door.

Tell that to Straussy as he was belting out hAmhrann na bhFiann last season!

Feckin' legend regardless of birthplace.

Of course the idea of headhunting people is slightly different. I don't like what the French are doing for example and I'd really hope we don't start doing that kind of thing. My understanding of what happened with Bent (which may be completely wrong) is that he was brought in by Leinster for Leinster and then hijacked by Ireland as soon as they heard about him.

jacothelad

Fireball07 wrote: »

It doesn't bother me as much, probably because it hasn't affected us much recently. The only thing is that some people with Irish grandparents might actually feel a connection to Ireland, they might have come here when they were younger, they may even consider themselves Irish(their parents certainly might). It might be rare, but it is a possibility.

I agree with this. There is also an issue about how rugby players might view things. Would someone need to consider themselves Irish in order to play for Ireland? I'm sure there are quite a few rugby players born on this island who would not do so - at least in terms of citizenship / nationality, yet would consider the 'Irish' rugby team to be theirs and be just as honoured to be worthy of a cap as anyone else. It is the Irish rugby team not the Republic of Ireland rugby team, a fact often forgotten and one that makes our team unique in a way.

Like most people, I would consider it ideal for Ireland to be able to select players who are clearly eligible through birth, parentage and heritage. However I think of guys like Andy Ward who came here because he met a girl from Ballynahinch and married her. He didn't come here to play for Ireland yet did so with distinction - and possibly should have had more caps than he did.

If someone is willing to give up three years of their short pro rugby career to come here and perhaps be called up then more power to them. They won't get capped unless they are clearly suitable. They won't get capped unless they have worked their balls off and been successful with their province. Remember, these guys are often 12,000 miles from home and family, far from friends and country. It's not easy for many of them. Nor do I think that, as Swiwi claims, they are turning their back on their country and culture. That is just emotional claptrap. I sincerely doubt if 'British 'players like Andrew Trimble or Rory Best feel they are giving up anything.
These overseas guys are earning a precariously short living. Hands up everyone here who wouldn't move to G.B., France etc if you got an offer to double or treble your salary. I'm not a big fan of ultra - nationalism and would rather see things stay as they are. I have no problem at all with Richardt Strauss wearing the green of Ireland. He had to work damned hard to do so.

I think the NIQ / NIE guidelines help us out in this regard so that our teams are never going to be overloaded with NIQ players. If the guidelines are used with common sense and set aside when needed with an eye to ensuring the best possibilities of success for the provincial sides then we can bear welcoming on board one or two players who will enhance the Irish team. My vote is for the status quo.

hahashake

I'm sure we would all agree that Aki is a mercenary and that people are more likely to say this doesn't matter when it benefits their own team but would be less accommodating if it was doing the opposite.

The fact is that 3 years is an arbitrary number that many people feel is degrading the value of international rugby.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

hahashake wrote: »

I'm sure we would all agree that Aki is a mercenary and that people are more likely to say this doesn't matter when it benefits their own team but would be less accommodating if it was doing the opposite.

The fact is that 3 years is an arbitrary number that many people feel is degrading the value of international rugby.

Do we ? None of us know his motivation for coming to Ireland

hahashake

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Do we ? None of us know his motivation for coming to Ireland

"That was another big decision for myself – to see if I would play for them or not. If I play three years over there and it doesn't go well, I can always go back to Samoa.

"They are a good international team as well but I'm just trying to look after my family and myself."

Riskymove

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

Do we ? None of us know his motivation for coming to Ireland

well why would a rugby player, without any irish connection, decide to become "Irish"?

hahashake

Riskymove wrote: »

well why would a rugby player, without any irish connection, decide to become "Irish"?

Maybe he likes the colour green?;)

Swiwi.

hahashake wrote: »

Maybe he likes the colour green?;)

You have a point there. He did choose Connacht after all.

molloyjh

Riskymove wrote: »

well why would a rugby player, without any irish connection, decide to become "Irish"?

Ah for Gods sake, what the hell does "Irish" even mean anyway? Is it purely genealogical, is it cultural, is it geographical? Does it really feckin' matter?

Riskymove

molloyjh wrote: »

Ah for Gods sake, what the hell does "Irish" even mean anyway? Is it purely genealogical, is it cultural, is it geographical? Does it really feckin' matter?

FFS can people read the full thread and not just cherrypick things to get upset about

Ugo asked if we knew his motivations

I simply asked what motivations could there be for someone to do this

Swiwi.

Riskymove wrote: »

FFS can people read the full thread and not just cherrypick things to get upset about

Ugo asked if we knew his motivations

I simply asked what motivations could there be for someone to do this

We need a poll!

stephen_n

Professional game, winning means more revenue, done deal, end of argument happened when the game went pro.

Mahatma Geansai

It should all be based on citizenship. Easiest fix really.

I want the Irish team to do as well as possible with Irish rugby players. If we can't be the best team in the world under those circumstances, we don't deserve to be. International rugby is not about just fielding the best eligible players. If it is, we will continue down the route of playing a XV consisting of Irish men and players not good enough to wear their own national jersey; you'll never be a great team if you welcome SH castaways with open arms.

CIARAN_BOYLE

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

It should all be based on citizenship. Easiest fix really.

But then every country would have different requirements. Also how would you separate England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Riskymove

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

But then every country would have different requirements. Also how would you separate England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

they manage it in other sports

OldRio

marc96 wrote: »

I used the white/black as an example,my point is Strauss is South African and always will be.just because Ireland can't compete with the top nations isn't an excuse to go looking abroad for talent.

Good grief man. We get it. We know you have a downer about the Irish rugby team.
As for your colour example? Embarrassing.

former legend

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

It should all be based on citizenship. Easiest fix really.

Damn, why did no-one else think of that?

"Hi Rory? Joe here, just calling to say great performance for Ulster at the weekend, you hit your darts every time, trojan work around the park mate. Listen, you're the first name down on my teamsheet for the Six Nations, just need to you fill in this form renouncing your British citizenship and taking up Irish, presume you've no problem with that?"

awec

former legend wrote: »

Damn, why did no-one else think of that?

"Hi Rory? Joe here, just calling to say great performance for Ulster at the weekend, you hit your darts every time, trojan work around the park mate. Listen, you're the first name down on my teamsheet for the Six Nations, just need to you fill in this form renouncing your British citizenship and taking up Irish, presume you've no problem with that?"

I don't agree with the idea, but Britain allows dual citizenship - there's no restriction there.

Mahatma Geansai

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

But then every country would have different requirements. Also how would you separate England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

If it is good enough for the nations themselves, it should be good enough for the IRB. It gets a bit tricky in this neck of the woods, but I'm sure there are ways to easily fix it. Something like a passport plus however many years residency if the country of choice might be a fairly straight forward solution.

The only good argument against it, is that it might weaken the standard of international rugby as countries like ourselves can't bolster our squads with lads from the SH. I'd have zero issue with that though.

former legend

awec wrote: »

I don't agree with the idea, but Britain allows dual citizenship - there's no restriction there.

I didn't intend for that post to be taken too seriously because the underlying suggestion is so bad, but single or dual citizenship, there is no way most of the Ulster players in the squad would swear an oath of loyalty to the Irish state.

Furthermore, the IRB have no control over how countries grant citizenship to anyone. Again to highlight the problems with this "suggestion"; what would stop some oil-rich Middle-East country handing out passports to a load of Saffers, Samoans and Kiwis and becoming a medium-level international team overnight?

So we can all agree it's a flawed suggestion.

Yeah_Right

former legend wrote: »

Furthermore, the IRB have no control over how countries grant citizenship to anyone. Again to highlight the problems with this "suggestion"; what would stop some oil-rich Middle-East country handing out passports to a load of Saffers, Samoans and Kiwis and becoming a medium-level international team overnight?

I think one of them tried that with an SA swimmer that won a couple of Olympic golds. They offered him a couple of million and a passport to swim for them at the next Olympics. Have a feeling it was Dubai.

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience

Mahatma Geansai wrote: »

It should all be based on citizenship. Easiest fix really.

I want the Irish team to do as well as possible with Irish rugby players. If we can't be the best team in the world under those circumstances, we don't deserve to be. International rugby is not about just fielding the best eligible players. If it is, we will continue down the route of playing a XV consisting of Irish men and players not good enough to wear their own national jersey; you'll never be a great team if you welcome SH castaways with open arms.

Ya is agree

jacothelad

[QUOTE=hahashake;89930897]I'm sure we would all agree that Aki is a mercenary and that people are more likely to say this doesn't matter when it benefits their own team but would be less accommodating if it was doing the opposite.

The fact is that 3 years is an arbitrary number that many people feel is degrading the value of international rugby.[/QUOTE]

I certainly don't agree but then my first instinct is to ascribe the best intentions to someone's motives rather than reach for pejorative insults. On reading Mr. Aki's reported comments, it seems to me that he is perhaps a little naive, confused, trying to sau what he thinks people want to hear and perhaps not the sharpest when it comes to the sensibilities of people such as yourself.

As for him being a 'mercenary', he is absolutely no different than anyone who comes here to play rugby and be rewarded financially for his efforts. That is not being 'mercenary', it's called employment.

Where do you get your information that 'many people feel is degrading the value of international rugby.' ? There are a few who might go along with this but it is a clearly nonsense statement. As far as I can see most people would disagree with your unsupported claim. What is the value of International Rugby? Are you saying only the pure of blood etc can play for Ireland? There are some who don't like the rule, there are some who are uncomfortable with it but accept it and there are some who are happy enough as it is as we are actually dealing with human beings, not slaves and property.